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My wife had numerous affairs (4) and the last one was over four years ago. She has recently (September 15th 2003) held the ILYBINILWY speech with me, and a couple of times since then.

She told me that she still has feelings for me but that she cannot imagine´having sex with me because she thinks of me like a brother and she doesn't feel right even imagining it. She told me that she doesn't feel like having sex at all, not just not with me.

She has told me that it would be better if I would just find someone else. She said that she would be happy for me because she would know that I would have found a better person who could make me happier than she can. She said that she doesn't deserve me or my love and forgivness.

She feels guilty for what she has done to me and I believe that her guilt is a factor in her not wanting to be a wife to me. She said that she still loves me but that a wife should also want to sleep with her husband, and since she doesn't that it would be better to get a divorce.

I have been sleeping on the couch since D-Day and I spent the entire month of October at my parent's house to give her a "break" to think things over. She closes the door to the bedroom when she changes her clothes after work. She said that she doesn't want me to get depressed or upset because I see something I want but can't have.

I get hugs and kisses (on the cheek) from her and she cuddles up next to me sometimes in the morning before I get up, but the intimacy isn't there anymore. I keep thinking that her guilt for her infidelity and her feeling bad for putting me through this is causing her to not have sexual feelings, and I am at a complete loss as to how to continue.

I used to be 50 lbs. overweight and that had something to do with her sexual feelings towards me, but I have lost 45 lbs. since this all started and she says that I look and feel much better and that she thinks I am sexy. I just don't know what else to do anymore. I have been doing everything to show her that I love her and forgive her, but she isn't responding.

She is responding a little more each week, but there hasn't been a sexual spark between us for over 9 months. She told me that she hasn't really wanted to make love to me for the last 6-7 years and that she only enjoyed sex with me during the first year or so that we were together. Could her memories of her having sex with me (sympathy sex) even though she didn't want to also be having an effect on her libido.

Sex is not a major issue to me. Believe me, I do like having sex with her and if I could I would want to 3-4 times a week, but I also understand that some women don't want it as much as men do and I am patien enough to wait. The problem is that I don't feel like her sexual feelings towards me are ever going to come back and I haven't seen any signals otherwise that this will change in the near future.

Should I suggest that she see a doctor about her guilty feelings in hopes of reviving her libido? Is there any hope that she will just "snap out of it"?

HELP!!!!

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NWF: a few questions:
1) Did you only find out about any of her affairs in September? Was it all a total shock to you?
2) Given that she stopped enjoying sex with you about 2 years before she married you, has she given you any indication why she married you at all?

The reason I ask is, our situations aren't identical but there are some similarities. After my D-Day (August 3), I lost about 30 lbs over the next 2 months and started looking after myself. W did the usual "I wish you could've done that for me." Dumbly enough, I'd done just that a few years earlier but it hadn't made a difference since she'd had A#3 at that time. My W also had several affairs, one of which lasted 8 months and started 6 weeks after we swore our vows.

I know this site is about repairing marriages, but that only applies if the marriage can be repaired or if you want to do so. You may conclude, as I did, that she wasn't worth it and that I was young enough (31) to simply move on and find somebody better. Or, you may feel that there's something there worth fighting for.

Good luck brother...

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No reservoirdog,

I found out about my WW's 4 A's over four years ago, but yes it was a shock to me. She has changed since, because she realized her mistakes. She got more distant though. We still had sex, but only about once a month and she definately wasn't "into it".

Then she told me (in September 2003) that she doesn't think that we should stay married because she thinks that I deserve better. She feels guilty for cheating on me and she feels that she is a bad person for doing what she did. She said that a sexual relationship between spouses belongs in a healthy marriage (which is true) and that is why she thinks that we should end it, because she can't even imagine sleeping with me because she only thinks of me as a brother. I think that it is mainly her guilt that is causing her to not have sexual feelings towards me. She has said that she hasn't thought about having sex AT ALL for the last 9 months or so.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by NoWhiteFlag:
<strong>
She feels guilty for what she has done to me and I believe that her guilt is a factor in her not wanting to be a wife to me. She said that she still loves me but that a wife should also want to sleep with her husband, and since she doesn't that it would be better to get a divorce.


HELP!!!! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WhiteFlag,

I would think that guilt would have just the opposite effect so I am not buying the guilt angle at all. If I were guilty about my infidelity, I would do everything to make it up to my spouse. I wouldn't punish him further.

I suspect, rather, that infidelity is a way of life with her and she is probably in another affair now. She has all the classic symptoms of a WS in an affair. But, she needs to stay in the marriage because you are probably meeting some of her needs. And in order to keep you around, she needs to convince you that she feels guilty.

I just don't see that she is really IN this marriage at all, just hanging around to collect some benefits without getting involved. And the nice thing is that you let her get away with it so this could go on forever.

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The mistake that you are making is trying to convince yourself that she does not really mean what she says.
The multiple affairs she had which may still be ongoingi should convince you that your wife does not care about being married to you. Her little speech to you that you would be better off with another person is one that is usually said when you are trying to break up. My advice is to take her advice and move on and find a woman who is worthy of you.

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I'm sorry, I guess I misunderstood the concept of this forum. I thought that it was meant to help one save their marriage.

My W's last A happened over four years ago and there hasn't been an OM since then! I realize that there was a pattern before but there was also a pattern on my side that led her to cheat on me. I wasn't there for her. I wasn't fulfilling her EN's and I was LB'ing all of the time. There are no typical signals that she is having an A. I have asked her about it and she has denied it. Knowing her for 9 years allows me to be able to tell if she is lying. During the time that she was unfaithful and I would ask her about it, she would get defensive and angry with me. When I asked her this time, she told me that there isn't an OM and that she doesn't want there to be. She discussed it with me and told me that she would never do that to me or to herself again. She is worried about going to hell.

I am guessing that her guilt is one of the reasons that she isn't "ready" to continue our marriage. There are other factors though. She is constantly stressed out from work (she works in an extremely negative environment). She remembers that I didn't support her in the past and that I wasn't helping around the house.

As I said before, I have changed and she has let me know that she has noticed and likes the changeds I have made. To stick to the concept of MB's . . . I am making deposits in her LB daily and she is coming around. Maybe someday my account will be full enough again in her LB that she will be able to "fall in love" with me again.

I have gotten over my W's past mistakes and I believe that she has broken the so called "pattern" that you all seem to be clinging to. I came here looking for advice, and not confirmation that what I am doing is right or wrong. I am looking for support from members who believe in the MB principals and not from those of you who would rather have me just "give up". I hope that there are some still out there who believe in forgiveness.

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Nowhiteflag,

Has your wife ever felt sexual towards you? In the beginning of your relationship, when you were in love, how was that?

Because if you made love frequently and had a desire to each other in the beginning, it is there somewhere, lying to be awakened.

I thought I was not sexually attracted to my WH. I didn´t think there was much about him that reminded me of a "man", no, more like a big boy, which was a turnoff for me.

I know this sounds crazy, but when I found out about his affair(s), it lit my sexual desire for him. Now that is not the issue anymore.

What I am trying to say is, you say you lost a lot of weight. Your wife thinks you look better than before? In your situation, instead of spending so much time trying to get her to change attitude with love deposits every day and patience etc (not that I am saying don´t stop doing it), I would make an attitude change.

Go and work out and begin to fine tune your body. Buy some new clothes. Smell nice. Start acting and making this confident sexy guy attitude a part of your life. Smile alot. Flirt a bit. Show attention to your wife. But show attention to other women too. Start to make your wife "perceive" that maybe she is right, that she will never find you attractive, so maybe other women will. Tell her you have come to realize and understand that it is her problem and she needs to work with it.

Nowhiteflag. Look and learn. She will start to feel small spots of jealousy. She knows you love her, but hey, my man is flirting with other women and they think he is pretty damn sexy. The more confident, sexy and smiley you are, the more sexed up your wife will begin to feel with her growing jealousy.

You say you are a patient man. Then be just that. When she begins to show signs of interest, tell her lovingly, caringly, that you don´t want her to do anything that is against her nature. That you don´t want her to feel like she is making love to her brother, so its best she and you wait.

At the end of the day, it will drive her NUTS. Because she won´t be able to stand the thought that someone else might have you.

Alot of people here may say this is the wrong thing to do, I know, but it is still innocent, and it is a very good strategy to make a turnaround in your marriage.

Try it. Maybe it works. What you have been doing so far hasn´t.

This is coming from a woman that has been on both sides. Jealousy is the most powerful factor in making any kind of turnaround!

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...and mark my word...

when she does turnaround and can´t get enough of you, never ever fall back on not being confident and sexy about yourself. Keep your eyes open, smile and flirt - its a two way street, you give something to others, they give something back, you feel stong and confident and attractive and THAT is what will contribute to energizing and keeping the sexual interaction alive in your marriage.

And don´t get me wrong, I am a BIG FAN of faithfullness and monogamy and getting ones marriage to work for a lifetime!

Queen

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"Knowing her for 9 years allows me to be able to tell if she is lying."

Some people here were married for thirty years and their partners had affairs they never knew about. I was with my X for 17 years, and I still got duped. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I hope the other posters are wrong, and that she isn't having an affair, but please remember we have all been here a lot longer than you, and many times new people come here and get upset when we suggest there may be something going on. Then a few weeks later, they find out the truth. They said the same to me when I first came here wondering why my X wanted a divorce, and I was like....no way! Not AGAIN...he would NEVER do that again! But guess what, he did, and now he is married to her. And btw, I KNEW the first time, I had NO CLUE the second. None. His tactics and strategies to hide it completely changed, as perhaps your wife's have.

Please do not discount the thought that she may be involved with someone again. There ARE classic patterns on both sides of this, and she is displaying some of them (the ones we all know here...we call these patterns red flags). So are you....denial is a big feature the betrayed spouse.

She is 26 and does not want to have sex? She has had four affairs....it is just possible that she is having another. Please do not discount the warnings of the people here. They tell you that she may be doing it again to protect you, to prepare you and (which some did NOT say) suggest you bamboozle her with Plan A. You LOOK like the man she remembers, now think what you acted like back then, too, and be that man she fell in love with before.

It may be a dire situation for you, but many of us did not have the luxury of having our troubled spouses under the same roof to Plan A them on a constant basis. You are lucky she is around for you to display your sincerity and love to. For my part, my X left, then built a huge wall around himself that I could not get through....at least you guys are talking!

Hope you guys can work it out,

Love and light,

Jacky

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by NoWhiteFlag:
<strong> I'm sorry, I guess I misunderstood the concept of this forum. I thought that it was meant to help one save their marriage.

I have gotten over my W's past mistakes and I believe that she has broken the so called "pattern" that you all seem to be clinging to. I came here looking for advice, and not confirmation that what I am doing is right or wrong. I am looking for support from members who believe in the MB principals and not from those of you who would rather have me just "give up". I hope that there are some still out there who believe in forgiveness. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WhiteFlag, your wife has all the behavior patterns of someone who is in an affair at BEST or has moved on emotionally at worst. She is saying all of the classic things that a affair partner says in an affair.

If her remarks are NOT from an affair, then you have an even BIGGER problem on your hands becuase her comments [ILYBNILWY] cannot be attributed to the FOG of an addictive affair, but to her true feelings. And maybe she isn't having an affair - I don't know - however, its seems extremely likely given that she is saying all of the classic things and has a very established pattern of adultery.

And perhaps you have forgiven her for that, but that doesn't mean you IGNORE her nature in the future.

Yes, this is a very pro marriage place but its not a pro-fantasy forum. We work on marriages, not on plying folks with unrealistic expectations.

Marriage Builders does not advocate holding a marriage together at all costs. Nor does forgiveness have anything to do with ignoring behavior patterns. It means you watch it even more.

I am sorry I am not telling you what you want to hear, but I suspect you are not facing the reality of your situation and I won't help you delude yourself.

<small>[ December 12, 2003, 08:12 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

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NWF,
i think that i'll give this one a try but only because you sound so lost.

yes this is a place where good people try to help save marriages but it's not never, never land. if you want to do something constructive then you have to approach your problem with an open mind.

first understand that your W is sounding like a poster child for infidelity. and let's face it. cheating is not something that she's ever hesitated to do! (4 X's in the past!?) so what's the big surprise if she's doing it again?

well here's something else you might not like. if she's done it 4 times in the past with no substantial consequence to her marriage why would she hesitate to do it again...more to the point why wouldn't she?

if it were me in your position, i would be amenable to all of her suggestions...at least in terms of conversation. that is, agree with everything she tells you! don't argue, beg, plead or try to reason with her. instead just sit back and begin to emotionlly disconect from what she's doing.

begin having a life of your own for goodness sake. spend time with friends with out her. make new friends, make your self independant of her. put no pressure on her to change anything at the moment. just let her be. now that doesn't mean that you are to act with direspect or anger. or that you are suppose to avoid her or show no care for her...all you need to do is go along with her suppositions like you think she's right.

then wait...at least for the near future. if it were me, i wouldn't even spy on her. i would simply treat her like a friend and roomate and show her that you're going on with your life.

you two have been in a push pull situation for so long that she's learned to play you...so change who you are and stop being so pradictable. make her work a little on the relationship. let he see what she's really giving up and what she may loose. in short, stop smothering her with your self and just back off.

no body wants to be with someone that's to needy. besides, your W need to learn to value you and her marriage. accepting her as she is is just not the answer...besides, if she decides to stay with you, (and i would bet anything that she's not about to leave) what would you have?

now is the time to change this thing around once and for all. she has to learn that adults work on their relationships..they don't just discard them and have affairs when they get a little bored with them!

sorry if you don't like my response.
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NOWhiteFlag,
Ignore Yosh! He, she or it has a history of telling people to just forget about their sleezy WS's and divorce them. Your not the first and wish MB would throw he, she or it off the boards.

Must be a divorce attorney that needs more business. A different type of ambulance chasing.........

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NWF:

I'm going 2 take a sorta different tack here. I hope this helps somehow, and I hope I'm not off base or giving false hopes.

Your sitch isn't particularly similar 2 mine, but your "lifestyle" over the past 9 months sounds familiar (though I don't think we ever went more than a month or 2 without SF). I heard a lot of what you are hearing from my FWW. She had "ended" her A about 2 years ago, before I found out. In reality, she tried 2 remain friends with RM up until a few months ago, and we're still trying 2 work out NC (though that's been a majorly big step for us!).

I'm thinking here that maybe your W is not having an A, or if she is, it's an EA and maybe neither of you know what that is. My W's A with RM was primarily an EA (emotional affair). When it began, about 13 years ago, neither of us had heard of an EA. I doubt the term had even been coined up 2 that time. Heck, I didn't hear of it until after D-day almost 2 years ago. So, what I'm wondering is whether she may either be still emotionally involved with one of her previous OMs, with someone new, or perhaps "wanting" something more with a friend, and so perhaps "about 2" have another A?

But in the end, none of that matters. It sounds like you've been doing better at something of a plan A over time, and it's starting 2 get her attention. It might not sound like progress if she keeps saying she can only love you as a brother, but I'm betting that, assuming you can or want 2 rebuild your M, that she'll come around even2ally and maybe even want 2 hop in the sack in the middle of the afternoon without warning... ...well, it might not happen like that, but my point is that you will probably feel the distance in the form of this brotherhood stuff until the moment it changes. Because, how will you know if it's different if she doesn't tell or show you somehow?

What 2 do? Well, you love her, I can tell. She has never left you, and doesn't appear likely 2 do so soon. That's the way it always was with my W's A, and the past 2 years since I found out. Some of the best advice I got during this time was 2 look at my sitch, as painful as it was at times, and ask myself: "Self? Are you in a crisis right now? Is she spending large sums of cash on RM? Is she seeing him? Are WE making any progress at all 2wards restoring intimacy - both emotional and physical - in our M?" And I had 2 answer that, no, I wasn't in a real crisis, she never spent money on him, except once when she helped him 2 get an apartment after his W tossed his kiester out 2 the curb during the winter <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (and even that was a "good thing" because when he asked her 2 come visit him there a month or so later, she told him she couldn't! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). We were making intimacy progress, 2. We never stopped having SF, but the quality sure went up and down (pardon) the whole time. Sometimes it was "makeup sex" after an argument, sometimes it was good, sometimes it felt obligatory. Mostly it just "was." More important are the signs of any emotional reconnection you might be sensing. Think about these. Is she sincere? Or is it some kind of smokescreen? It can be hard 2 tell, but I think with practice, it is possible. I can't explain how I do it/did it, but even2allly I was able 2 tell this. And the "real thing" was pretty sparse at first, but lately it's been more obvious. Kind of a positive-feedback thing. Love begets more love, which begets still more love. If she's only emotionally involved with you, and not someone else, then the times you show signs of hurting, she'll respond with more empathy, because she's more aware (less fogged). I'm thinking about the times she kisses you or snuggles with you in the mornings. Don't make big productions of these, but do cherish them. Don't expect miracles, but don't stifle them either.

I have no real idea whether you should save your M or end it. That's for you 2 decide. I think you'll figure out what you want 2 do, for you.

-ol' 2long

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Nowhiteflag - I think you can give your wife all of the love in the world and it won't make any difference. She needs to get some counseling. I'm no expert, but something is wrong here. Women with self-esteem do not have ONS's and sex behind the building. Suggest that the two of you go to counseling - she may even need medication. There is something in her background that is keeping her from being happy.

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I appreciate everyone's replies to my posts because it helps me to get a clearer view of what other people are/have gone through. I believe that the feelings that my W is showing me are "real" and I also believe that she is "coming around". I cannot contest that there might me an OM, but I doubt it because there really aren't any signs. If there is then it is more than likely an EA and not a PA. I really do doubt it though, and not just because I want to believe it, but because there REALLY aren't any signs.

I have been thinking about having a PA because of my need for SF. It is mostly because I nee to feel "a warm body" next to me though and that is why I haven't done it (mainly because I don't feel that I can't). I wouldn't know how to "act like there is an OW" to make her jeolous so that would be my only option. There are days that I feel that everything is OK and I don't "need it", but then there are days that I feel like I am goin gto "explode". She has been "closer to me" than she has been for a long time, but some days I just need a little more intimacy, and I don't exactly mean penetration. Sorry, but I can't expalain it any other way. I love my W and I don't want to lose her.

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NWF:

And while I might agree that she needs 2 wake up 2 the fact that she doesn't want 2 lose you either, having a "revenge A" is NOT the best way 2 wake your spouse up.

Get counseling.

-ol' 2long


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