I have a question. I discussed in another section about my wifes jealousy. When we watch television she gets angry if I look at women that are in bikinis or very scantily clad. Half of whats on tv nowadays sad to say is like that. We avoid watching shows that may have any sex scenes or possibility. She scans movies to see if they have any nudity before we rent them. I have no problem with not watching nor do I have any desire to watch pornagraphy, but this just makes me feel like I'm in a cage sometimes. There are a lot of good movies that have nudity, I know there are a lot of trashy ones, but I don't care to watch them. We are going to a counselor, but she has said that she will never be comfortable with female nudity because all men look at it with lust. I could care less if it is there or not. I just hate feeling like a child when I watch tv or a movie, turning my head so she doesn't get mad. Should I just except this or what? I love her, but this won't go away even with counseling. I feel like I'm writing to want to watch half naked or naked women but that's not the case at all. Society is making it difficult.

what does your counselor say about this?

i don't know that i have an answer. i just know that avoiding such content is almost like avoiding oxygen -- it's everywhere, uncontrollable by you and ultimately unstoppable.

the issue doesn't seem to be with your behavior (assuming you're telling the truth ... which i am), but instead with something that's unresolved with your wife. what that might be i haven't the first clue.

what's troubling is that your wife believes that ALL men look at nude women with lust. i grow suspicious when people speak in such absolutes because the expression is exceptionally arrogant and unfair.

there's more exploration in store for you and your wife.

Hi alx,

Just like everyhting else in society,we can make CHOICES about what we do in our lives,we don't have to succumb to the media/magazines ideals of how we should act,look,be,etc.

It sounds to me like your wife may have some self-esteem issues.Unless you are blatantly GAWKING at other women in front of her without regard to her feelings( I get the impression you are not based on what you said) them she may just feel insecure about herself AND possibly about your relationship.

It is my feeling that some emotions,such as anger and jealousy,stem form a deep seeded pain that hasn't surfaced in a person.The pain,from whatever experience these things trigger,is manifested in other emotions like what your wife has done.

Is she possibly having or have had some issues(like whippit said) with sexuality or her upbringing? What is your sexual relationship like with your wife,is it fullfilling or are there issues? Does she have any repressed feelings toward men or some sexual abuse in her past?

There is nothing wrong with admiring a beautiful woman or a handsome man but to the extreme that your wife makes you feel caged,I agree that you do need to keep seeing a counselor to get to the root of the problem.

october

Thanks guys. I do believe as a child she had some abuse issues with her father who was divorced from her mother. It would happen during visitation from what little I have gotten out of her. She never told her mom, and her brother who is 8yrs. older was very upset about her having to go over there after he refused to go there any more. I think she may have issues with her mom too. Even though they get along fine now (mom), she still talks to her dad every now and then but has never addressed anything with him or her mom. When we first started going out we had sex all the time, but once we got married it has desolved almost completely. I think its been 2 1/2 months since we've had sex and even then she wasn't really into it. She says she feels unattractive and ugly. This from a woman who is constantly being ogled at by other men or complemented. When we were dating it seemed like she would use sex sometimes to manipulate me when we were fighting or when we would almost break up (typically over her jealousy). I don't mean to bash. We have addressed it in counseling and what she gets is that she needs to let go of her baggage and that we need to study scripture (its through our church). I do believe studying scripture is a good thing, but I don't think this is going to aleviate it though. Maybe I'm just being to pessemistic. I have written before about this but... I guess I'm looking for answers that aren't in black and white. I don't want to loose a marriage, but this just won't go away. Should I just try to ignore it??

HI
My take on the situation so feel free to ignore- if you love your wife- which you say you do, you want your marriage to work and you are not actually bothered about watching nudity, then why don't YOU make the decision to bless your wife by understanding her own issues on the nudity and YOU choosing to not watch it. That way you are not being treated like a child but making an adult decision.
On the sex front, this is a different issue and probably though raised in your post as an after thought the real main problem here. That will take time and patience on your part- and perhaps counselling for your wife from an expert on such issues rather than just from a church counsellor. Yes scripture will help- but as someone who dealt with similar though lesser issues, church and the scripture are not the whole answer.
Hope this may help
Jante

<small>[ December 12, 2003, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: jante ]</small>

I think the key thing here that nobody has mentioned is POJA.

W doesn't want H to watch any nudity of any sort to the extreme that he has to turn away when it comes on.

H has no desire to watch porn but doesn't want to have to turn away all the time.

Right now alx is doing something for his W but he is not enthuistiac about it. Thus POJA is not in play here. Alx you need to sit down with your W and explain to her how yo feel about this issue. Use feeling words and the rules for good conversation. Then when she understands your position she needs to explain her feelings also using the rules for good conversation. Now with a mutual understanding of the situation you can both negotiate to a common agreement that you are both 100% enthusiastic about.

Please read: Negotiaion Guidelines

POJA described

Good luck!

Please bear with me you all I am new to this.

(alx1970)

Ok I am so like your wife.My H turns his head while women show up on the television.He also avoids all movies with women as much as he can.You say "you turn your head so that you don't make her mad".So you only do it so that you don't p*** her off? You don't do it because you want to?Right!
My H told me he turns his head because he doesn't want to see them.He said he knows it hurts me.And he has gone to extrems for me.He has sacraficed for me(which one day we will get back to a normal life).You see my H says he doesn't care to look at those women on television ect because it's not worth it.He loves me not them.

You seem to be fighting this with your wife, which will only add to more problems with her(self-esteem).

And NO. You can not avoid the media/magazines/television/society and what ever else.But you can take steps to lesson it by avoiding all that you can.

What is so IMPORTANT about watching movies??

My H want's to turn our cable off because he says nothing is ever on worth watching.He says that because every time he wants to watch television there in his face are women.It's like they are the most important thing in this world.He is forced to look weather he wants to or not.He choses NOT..Because of ME and because of himself.

I don't really think you are telling everything about your situation with your wife.She didn't wake up one morning and say to her self "well I'm going to start being jealous".

Have YOU given her a reason for her sel-estem issues?Have you flirted in front of her?Have you gawked at women in front of her,ect?Have you fought her over it?Have you told her your watching television no matter what? Has she found some form of porn hidden in your car or closet,ect?Do you tend to pay attention to other women a little more than you should?

This is what caused my problem to become an issue in our marriage.Paying to much attention to other women,finding a dirty magazine in the trunk of our car,having fights over things that has something to do with women,ect..

My H has come along way.I met him when he was 17 years old and I was 23.We were friends for 3 years before we got married.He didn't understand alot of do's and dont's in a marriage and that is where it all went wrong and now we are finally geting our problems solved and becoming closer.H made mistakes.I need to forgive those mistakes,which I am in the process of doing so.

Please take a look at what you might have done that could have added to your W's problems.

Ok,I hope I never crossed any lines here on the board.Like I said I'm knew to this posting stuff.My reply is all jumbled but hopefully you all can work around it.

I used to have that problem too. I wouldn't allow nudie magazines in the house. I didn't like hubby oggling bikini clad women etc.. Part of it was the way in which he'd comment. It was just plain rude to me. He thought it was cute. But, the main problem was me. I was very insecure in our relationship. Once I became secure with US...all of a sudden that other stuff doesn't even phase me. I still ask that he doesn't oggle nudie magazines or go to the strippers. I feel that's just respectful to me and our marriage.

Maybe I am being selfish. The only thing about the tv shows is that she is the one who wants to watch any shows that primarily contain it "reality television". I don't make an issue of turning my head, but she says I don't do it quick enough or that she knows I can see it out of the corner of my eye. Very frusterating. If I know it is coming why don't I turn my head sooner. Why doesn't she turn her head when the guys strut with their tee shirts off, even though I could care less. The only thing I can say though Bell is that I think it adds some sort of resentment to the relationship. He's to the point where he wants to disconnect cable, that seems extreme to me. Make sure this is truly what he wants to do or I believe he will harbor some feelings. I don't cheat and I don't flirt and I don't sit and stare. I do consider rude to do that, but at the same time I would like to be able to acknowledge if an individual is attractive or not with facing retribution. My wife says that she doesn't judge whether someone is attractive or not and never has.

I don't watch those shows like "reality shows".H doesn't like them either.My opinion they are just down right stupid.I differ here,I don't look at men when they take their clothes off or anything.I choose to turn away from it. I also am like your wife, I also do not judge someone wheather they are attractive or not.And I never have(and never will).What is attractive anyway?There high dollar clothing, make-up, ect..

You say you would like to be able to acknowledge if an individual is attractive or not.Why do you care if they are or not?Your wife should be #1..And if you are talking about the women on television, come on that's not fair.That is not reality.They have air brushing done,fancy high dollar clothing,make-up artist paint them up to look perfect.Padding here and padding there.Cosmitic surgery.Breast augmentation,ect..Those women get paid to look that way and they have the money to do it.In reality those women are not so perfect.So why? Why hurt your wife over it?

About shutting off the cable H said that because he gets angry that almost every show and commercial has to have women and sex involved in it. Some of us just get sick over it.It's to much.It's forced upon our daily life.You take a toothpaste commercial and there is a sexy dressed woman with her breast hanging out of her shirt.What are they selling sex or toothpaste?Most people see the breast and don't see the toothpaste.Why do they do that?Why do they have a need to put a woman in a toothpaste add dressed that way?And us women have to deal with that everyday.

Have you made it a big deal about what you want to watch on television?If you have then your W might feel like you have chosen it over her.She may not be able to get past it.It could have caused great pain for her.

I suppose you need to figure out what is important to you.Your W or television.Can you live without television?Does television have some kind of control over you?

My H watches television all he want's to.He watches the History channel,Discovery channel,PBS and the like.And when we buy DVD's we make sure there is no nudity, ect.We also have 2 children we have to make sure that they don't watch all that junk they put out on hellevision..Now days television is not a good thing.Look what it has done to your marraige.

I agree television has become repulsive over the years. I believe it has evolved out of MTV and spread. Essentially testing the boundaries every year. I totally agree, let me repeat agree with you about television, it has become trash over the years. I prefer to watch Discovery or National Geographic or Fox News (ok I'm biased), but when my wife wants to watch regular television and jumps on me if I don't move quick enough it becomes a stressful and anxious situation for me. I've come accept the fact that programming is not going to change unless people outright boycott television. Never happen. And yes I have agreed with her that I would turn away from anything that may upset her, I don't want her to become upset. But it just seems to me that this is the symptom of a much larger problem in my case. Movies don't rule my life nor tv... This problem goes beyond tv or movies I was just using a small example instead of a broad picture in order to have a starting point. I especially did not mean sitting in front of the tv and pointing out to my wife that this or that women is hot. I'm not a complete dolt. I would get upset if she did that to me. I meant if I were having a casual conversation with my wife about people and she thought that so and so was an attractive person or I agreed with her that a certain woman was attractive. There is nothing wrong with that. But she has told me never to agre with her if she says a woman is pretty. And I'm not trying to be argumentative but I do believe you(Bell) are able to tell if a certain man OR woman is attractive, It's impossible not to. It's in our genes. I know for women it's more emotional than physical but there is still physical judgement.

I agree television has become repulsive over the years. I believe it has evolved out of MTV and spread. Essentially testing the boundaries every year. I totally agree, let me repeat agree with you about television, it has become trash over the years. I prefer to watch Discovery or National Geographic or Fox News (ok I'm biased), but when my wife wants to watch regular television and jumps on me if I don't move quick enough it becomes a stressful and anxious situation for me. I've come accept the fact that programming is not going to change unless people outright boycott television. Never happen. And yes I have agreed with her that I would turn away from anything that may upset her, I don't want her to become upset. But it just seems to me that this is the symptom of a much larger problem in my case. Movies don't rule my life nor tv... This problem goes beyond tv or movies I was just using a small example instead of a broad picture in order to have a starting point. I especially did not mean sitting in front of the tv and pointing out to my wife that this or that women is hot. I'm not a complete dolt. I would get upset if she did that to me. I meant if I were having a casual conversation with my wife about people and she thought that so and so was an attractive person or I agreed with her that a certain woman was attractive. There is nothing wrong with that. But she has told me never to agre with her if she says a woman is pretty. And I'm not trying to be argumentative but I do believe you(Bell) are able to tell if a certain man OR woman is attractive. It's impossible not to. It's in our genes. I know for women it's more emotional than physical but there is still physical judgement.

Ok,hold on. I think we are rapidly getting away from what I think is the main issue here.The wife needs to get some better counseling to try to resolve her issues with the opposite sex.This man should not have to stop watching TV just so his wife can feel better.We are talking about just regular TV programs that are on now,not pornographic movies or the like.

I don't get the impression that the wifes feelings are not important here.But if the wife is that insecure and has unresolved issues,well alx might as well blindfold himself for the rest of his life and have his wife lead him around by the arm.We live in a society that has ever increasing bounderies PUSHED as was mentioned and it is up to us as individuals to make appropriate choices that are respectful to our partners.

I don't think a choice has to be made such as do I want TV or do I want my wife.I think this woman is probably insecure and judgmental wherever she goes,the malls,restaurants,movies,etc.This is a problem with the way in which she views men and women in general,I think.That is what needs to be "cured"(remember abuse was mentioned regarding the father). Taking the TV away is only putting a bandaid on the bigger issue.JMHO.

O

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> she says I don't do it quick enough or that she knows I can see it out of the corner of my eye. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is such manipulation! She asks you to turn your head when nudity or a pretty woman comes along on tv then you don't do it quick enough!

She is not your keeper, your mother or your judge. She is your wife. She should never demand anything from you except honesty.

I suggest getting her to a professional counselor who specializes in problems like hers.
DB

Again, POJA should be in effect here. If W wants H to turn his head away when women are undressing, kissing, flirting, etc. fine. IF and only IF H is in full agreement about this.

If H does not agree with W abut this then he is not following POJA and he is also breaking the rule of openess and honesty by telling W he is ok with this idea. Alx, you and your W need to sit down and talk about the issue. It is apparent by you starting the thread that you don't like this idea. This issue needs to be resolved and shouldn't be swept under the rug.

JMHO

Thanks. Sometimes I feel like a wimp. She is extremely intelligent and quick, and I have to play catch up with her. She has this way of arguing her position to the point where I'm like ok ok. I don't want to argue any more and get punished like a child it feels. She gets mad at me for not expressing myself with her completely, but I feel like if I do she's gonna throw a tirade. I don't want to make it sound like its this way all the time, but I am constantly avoiding that I feel. Sometimes I wonder why she doesn't address the issues more in herself (maybe I'm not forcing it enough myself and that I'm afraid of losing her). She mastered in child psychology. Maybe she did face it and was afraid of the demons she would have to conquer. I don't know. Any more advice would deeply be appreciated. Do you think my feelings will only get worse as time go by.
Another thing, I have a possible job offer which would benefit us enormously, but I would have to go to 3 training seminars over the course of a year for 5 days at a time out of state. I know she will flip and not go for this or otherwise say that she is going with me, which would be silly. I guess trust is at issue here too.
I didn't mention this before, but she doesn't want us to watch any movies unless we are together. She says so that we can enjoy them together, but I don't think that is the reason why. She also without telling me threw away two movies I had, that I got before we got married, that had a nude scene in them. She left the dvd case in the rack but took out the movie. I looked because I just had this thought she might do that and they were gone. Of course I can't bring this up, because.... HELP.

Yes. I admit I don't like turning my head, I feel like a 4 year old. If I'm at my parents or friends it's quite embarrasing. I know people can see this. The thing is if i use POJA and tell her I am uncomfortable with this, she will go into rage saying that I just want to look at the women and I'm perverted. Our 8 year old daughter (my step daughter) can keep on watching but daddies got to turn his head because he'll be filled with all kinds of lust. Makes me feel pathetic.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Makes me feel pathetic. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I don't blame you. It makes it sound like she thinks you are a man who can't control his urges.

Have you done anything to make her feel this way? What happened to your step daughter's father?

Concerning your new job offer: Of course you should always discuss life changing events with your spouse but I don't think one week 4 times a year is unrealistic. Again, have you ever been unfaithful? If so, then I'd say she has reason to worry. But if you've never given her reason to not trust you then she has deep issues.


The more you add to your story, the more I think your wife needs IC with a different counselor.
DB

<small>[ December 12, 2003, 04:24 PM: Message edited by: dazed blonde ]</small>

axl1970
After reading your last 2 post I think you have solved some of your problems.#1,Dishonesty.

Sounds like there is more to your problem that your not telling us.For one thing I believe you have been dishonest with your wife.

The way I read it, it comes down to this.You want to watch tv and movies with women in them and she doesn't want you to.So you avoide it as much as you can in front of her, but really you want to watch.The thing is your wife deep down knows that you want to watch them and it has hurt her something awful.

I also think that she watches your every move and she gets upset when she even sees the slightest glance you give a female.Do you lie to her and say you didn't see anything?

If you have lied to her about women in any way,that could be her problem.

I'm sure if you were honest with her when the problem started she wouldn't be as bad as she is now.The truth can be delt with no matter how painfull but a lie is a double dose of hurt.Not only do you have to deal with the truth but you have to deal with a lie also.That hurts.

If there is more to your story let it out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Still Trying To Save It:
<strong> I think the key thing here that nobody has mentioned is POJA.

W doesn't want H to watch any nudity of any sort to the extreme that he has to turn away when it comes on.

H has no desire to watch porn but doesn't want to have to turn away all the time.

Right now alx is doing something for his W but he is not enthuistiac about it. Thus POJA is not in play here. Alx you need to sit down with your W and explain to her how yo feel about this issue. Use feeling words and the rules for good conversation. Then when she understands your position she needs to explain her feelings also using the rules for good conversation. Now with a mutual understanding of the situation you can both negotiate to a common agreement that you are both 100% enthusiastic about.

Please read: Negotiaion Guidelines

POJA described

Good luck! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, this post nails the issue. You and your wife need to learn about, and implement POJA.

Good luck--

Kathi