Why is it that although I was desparately unhappy within the marriage at a number of points and wasn't adequately having my needs met that I DIDN'T have an affair?

You might think that I didn't have "opportunities". Well that is also not true. I am not a boring or unattractive person, and members of the opposite sex did, from time to time, try to hit on me - without much success.

So, if unhappiness and unfulfilled needs and a willing affair accomplice are the pre-requisites for having an affair, why aren't more people unfaithful?

Because dear Claire, some of you are just more inherently good. Some of you just have more strength and decency. Some of you are just not made up lacking in some of the fibre that others of us are.

I truly never believed I was capable of an A. I still to this day don't understand why I could have the A, even though I always thought of myself as a strong person, a moral person, a good egg. I wasn't, I was a coward, one who could not face Pound Man nor her own demons <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Just know that many of you don't because you just don't, many of us do, because we just do. I think what is more likely that we loose our way during our own trauma, whereas you stand firm in your beliefs.

Will mail you directly later when I have more time.

Take care and wishing you well.

Lisa

So, Enigma, what's your point?

I believe the Harley theories primarily apply to your emotional being. Unmet needs combined with someone else who is willing to meet them WILL create an emotional attraction to that person. Your question is why this doesn't result in an affair in every case.

Human beings have the unique ability to choose whether or not they will act in accordance with what their emotions are telling them. Many, many people have been faced with unmet needs and a willing affair partner only to choose not to have an affair. I had been faced with this a few times early in our marriage and didn't have an affair.

I think it can come down to a matter of degree and current emotional makeup. I reached a point of severe emotional desperation. I felt like I had exhausted all my efforts to make my marriage what it should be. I was depressed. I was in a psychological state that allowed my emotions to control me rather than the other way around.

Let's compare it to the basic need for food. Most of us would say that it's wrong to eat dead human flesh. Yet, don't you think that severe hunger could drive one to override that that moral sense? I choose this example because it has in fact occurred in at least two cases I can recall (Andes plane crash, Donner party).

Emotional connection and fulfillment is as basic a need as food. Infants wither and die if not cuddled and loved. If severely deprived, one can go to extreme lengths to meet their emotional need. I think what constitutes 'deprived' varies from one person to another. I would think that the more one's Taker is in control, the lower that threshold will be.

All of that said, I think people can learn to manage emotional deprivation without resorting to destructive behaviors, but most people aren't born with those skills. Hence, we have psychologists and counselors to help us deal.

Low

<small>[ December 16, 2003, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: LowOrbit ]</small>

Enigma, I think you and others who DO NOT CHOOSE to have affairs should be applauded, rather than sneered at. An affair is always a choice. It is not something that just "happens" to a person. A person never gets into an affair against their will.

That being said, I will tell you something I have learned from being around here and from being in a semi-bad marriage. When one goes years without having their needs met, they become like a dehydrated man in the desert.

When that man finally meets up with a woman who has unlimited water, the temptation can be overwhelming for even the most self disciplined, moral person. The dehydrated, starving man has no defense against this intense pleasure and it actually becomes like an addiction.

I am not saying that that makes it RIGHT. It is NEVER RIGHT, no matter what or who does it. But I do understand how it could happen, and believe me, Enigma, I used to steadfastly believe I could never be drawn into a affair. I still haven't, but I know how it feels now to feel starved for affection at home. And I know what it is like to have an addiction - these WS' use the language of addiction, which I can relate to. But because of this forum, I worked on the problems in my marriage and guarded myself around men because I knew I was vulnerable.

And then on the other hand, as we can see from various threads here, we have WS' who simply have affairs because they are amoral and don't know right from wrong. They are like alley cats in heat and don't care who they destroy in the pursuit of their desires. They believe that whatever makes them happy is acceptable. These are the truly dangerous people, but thankfully do not represent our typical WS on this forum.

Originally posted by Enigma:
Why is it that although I was desparately unhappy within the marriage at a number of points and wasn't adequately having my needs met that I DIDN'T have an affair?

My guess:

You have a STRONG sense of your own identity as an individual outside your partner.... and

Your personal sense of identity is valuable to you .... something you cherish.

You recognized that having an affair would be detrimental your sense of self. Rolling in the mud would lessen your opinion of yourself.

You respect who you are, even when unhappy.

You would be *more unhappy* if you did something (like have an affair) that would lessen your high regard for who you are as a person.

You might think that I didn't have "opportunities". Well that is also not true. I am not a boring or unattractive person, and members of the opposite sex did, from time to time, try to hit on me - without much success.

I understand, and agree.


So, if unhappiness and unfulfilled needs and a willing affair accomplice are the pre-requisites for having an affair, why aren't more people unfaithful?

I truely think many people get involved in affairs because they are looking for an identity. They seek outside validation, not realizing that their true validation must come from within, and their relationship with their God.

Usually the big spiritual unmet need ... underneath all the usual needs listed by Harley ... is a need to feel validated as a person of value.

And.... during an affair, they eventually erode their sense of personal identity even further .... and thus become so foggy that they feel this..."without the OP in my life, life is meaningless".... A vast emptyness only waiting to be filled by others.

It's a fools game having an affair. The "solution" creates a lesser self.

Well.... that's what I think.

Pep

I have felt the same as you enigma, had plenty of opportunities. But it never dawned on me to have an affair. The thought of giving myself emotionally or physically to another man seems weird. Even now I just can't imagine.

I felt my marriage was pretty good, but I gave in alot. Never pushed hard for my desires. For the most part I always figure nothing is that big of a deal to start problems....tomarrow's another day...that type attitude. I now look back and see things that I should have been doing all along. The hardest thing in this is beside's being my husband he is my best friend. I remember in one conversation he told me if your best girlfriend did something big like this you would forgive. Frankly if my girlfriend stabbed me like he has, I would have nothing to do with her. I don't need a friendship that bad.

Enigma,

I'm sorry if my earlier post came across as a 'sneer'. You are indeed to be congratulated for your success in staying faithful.

I've gone back and edited the post. I'm sometimes a little oversensitive to posts like this because it feels like we are trying to set up an "us vs. them" situation. Eloi and Morlocks.

I know there are people in the world that would categorize adulterers and ex-adulterers as sub-human. However, it does us all well to remember that we are married to these people. Should we want to feel superior/inferior to the spouses we want to rebuild with?

I think I also realize that the BS has had the crap kicked out of their self-esteem and truly needs to know that there is something good and right about them - that they've done nothing wrong. My wife needed this affirmation from me and her friends. While I expect no pity from anyone, the FWS is often in a similar boat. We wonder if we are "sub-human" for what we have done and we look for affirmation from our spouse to know that we can still be loved and eventually respected.

Again, I apologize.

Low

Originally posted by LowOrbit:
I'm sometimes a little oversensitive to posts like this because it feels like we are trying to set up an "us vs. them" situation. Eloi and Morlocks.

The oversensitivity you feel is due to what fear inside of yourself?

Do you recognize that your first reaction to Enigma's question was fear based?

What frightens you about this discussion?


I know there are people in the world that would categorize adulterers and ex-adulterers as sub-human. However, it does us all well to remember that we are married to these people. Should we want to feel superior/inferior to the spouses we want to rebuild with?

Do you feel inferior? is that what your fear is?


I think I also realize that the BS has had the crap kicked out of their self-esteem and truly needs to know that there is something good and right about them - that they've done nothing wrong. My wife needed this affirmation from me and her friends.

But, I suspect your wife would have come to the conclusion that she is "OK" even if she had to do that by herself. It would eventually occur to her that she is, indeed, despite what her H chose to do, a good woman.

While I expect no pity from anyone, the FWS is often in a similar boat.

Why on Earth would you even want "pity"? Wouldn't it be far superior to have understanding and encouragement?

We wonder if we are "sub-human" for what we have done and we look for affirmation from our spouse to know that we can still be loved and eventually respected.

Well, sorry mate.... that affirmation is an inside job! I can tell you 1000 times that you are a fine bloke, but unless the spark is internal .... it won't lite your soul.


Again, I apologize.

I must tell you Low, you are one of my current favorite FWS's here on MB. You struggle and you snarl, but you are doing a fine job of correcting your thinking errors that led you into the muck. Be patient with yourself.

My dear darling wonderful husband was in a terrible hellhole of self-loathing after his affair ended.

But, gotta tell ya, he is one self-respecting man today!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep

Enigma,

Many times, I believe that family history plays a huge part in determining if a spouse will stray. It doesn't excuse it, but I think that some of us learn coping tools from our parents. I consider myself fortunate that I learned the right set of tools from my family. As much as the experience has hurt me, I still acknowledge that he has other life tools that are superior to mine and we're moving forward and learning from each other.

Dobie

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The oversensitivity you feel is due to what fear inside of yourself?

Do you recognize that your first reaction to Enigma's question was fear based?

What frightens you about this discussion?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bingo, Pep

Ironically, one of my greatest emotional needs is respect and admiration. I think trying to recover my self-respect, the respect of my wife, and the respect of others around me has been one of my biggest motivators for trying to set things right. I do fear that no matter what I do from this point forward, there will be people, people whose opinion is important to me, who will always see me as a Morlock. I fear the unfairness and hopelessness of being broadly categorized.

Admittedly, not the behavior of a self-actualized individual. But at least I'm a little bit aware of the things that make me tick these days...

Low

Bingo, Pep

Bingo? We're playing bingo? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> .... I'm sick, that's my excuse

Ironically, one of my greatest emotional needs is respect and admiration. I think trying to recover my self-respect, the respect of my wife, and the respect of others around me has been one of my biggest motivators for trying to set things right.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ... You'll get there.

I do fear that no matter what I do from this point forward, there will be people, people whose opinion is important to me, who will always see me as a Morlock. I fear the unfairness and hopelessness of being broadly categorized.

Why are you so certain that other people aren't appreciative of your efforts to make things right? Do you have little faith in others ... or in yourself?

Admittedly, not the behavior of a self-actualized individual. But at least I'm a little bit aware of the things that make me tick these days...

We're all on our way to becoming better individuals. You are right where you're supposed to be.

Relax. No one is judging you nearly as harshly as you are.


<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:


You have a STRONG sense of your own identity as an individual outside your partner.... and

Your personal sense of identity is valuable to you .... something you cherish.

You recognized that having an affair would be detrimental your sense of self. Rolling in the mud would lessen your opinion of yourself.

You respect who you are, even when unhappy.

]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pep, you are so dead on accurate and insightful that it takes my breath away sometimes. This is EXACTLY WHY I haven't had an affair. This is exactly why I don't steal. It is because I could not BEAR to lose respect for myself. My self respect means so very much to me now.

Additionally, I know that adultery is wrong and there is no way I could rationalize it. After being in AA for 18 years, I have absolutely lost the ability to bullshi* myself. Thats pretty bad when my own excuses don't even work anymore!

Thank ya, Pep, for your clarity and insight! I love ya! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

My h is totally down on his self. He has always been a outwardly happy and pleasent person to be around. He now is beating himself up constantly, I have continued to tell him he is a good man, he just screwed up big time and we have to fix it together.

Tonight he was going on how I have people that check on me (3 family members,2 sets of couple friends and my co-worker and my boss) He says no one cares about him. One of the sets of couples is "our" friends and I know for a fact they still love him and care for him, I wouldn't want it any other way. I think what made the mood tonight is last night at work a third party told him the ow referred to him as a [censored] because he hasn't tried to talk to her and see her at work. I told him I am sorry and I know you are in a rock and a hard place. I just will not except him talking with her on a "pleasure" basis. I also thanked him for telling me about the 3rd party conversation. I have felt for a long time he was living two lives and maybe he is finally getting it that if this is going to work, we have to be totally honest in our lives. He told me that he told the 3rd party that he is doing what he has to do to make his marriage work. I pray he is strong, I pray he is being totally honest. I want so to believe.

Another thing, I want him to relieve some of his guilt, because at times his guilt is so strong that it may even drive us apart. He gets mad if I tell him, don't say your 100percent at fault, you don't have to keep saying it. I tell him time will heal, he says he will never forgive himself for ruining everything. I hope someday he can forgive himself (NOT forget) but forgive and make himself a better stronger person.

I apologise for putting this topic up for discussion, and not checking in until now. Where I live we are in the grips of some wonderful summer weather .... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Lisa:
I truly never believed I was capable of an A.
I have always believed that about myself too, and I always believed that about my husband. I still don't believe that I could have an affair, especially after going through the BS of being a BS. But maybe that statement makes me a disaster waiting to happen.

Low Orbit:
So, Enigma, what's your point?
I am just trying to understand the differences between myself and my husband.

My husband would probably say almost the same things as you about having become exhausted trying to improve the marriage. I am sure he was trying in his own ways to improve the marriage, however, the big mistake that he made was trying to improve things without letting me know what he thought was wrong. I knew that things weren't right too and I suggested that we start marriage counselling MORE THAN a YEAR before the affair started. He refused.

What you say about people's ability to cope with emotional deprivation is probably the key.

This is probably the same reason why some people can continue to work in an unrewarding job when others just quit and find something else.

I also think that we should remember it is not only the soon-to-be-WS whose needs are going unmet. The soon-to-be-BS can feel just as alone and uninvolved, but maybe they choose other "addictions" (interests, hobbies, keeping busy) Just my thoughts here.

MelodyLane:
.... and guarded myself around men because I knew I was vulnerable
Maybe this is what it is with me. Part of my mother's voice is always in my head whenever I am around my male friends. I have always treaded very carefully around members of the opposite sex, and have a good sense of when the conversation has strayed too far ...

Pepperband:
I truely think many people get involved in affairs because they are looking for an identity. They seek outside validation, not realizing that their true validation must come from within, and their relationship with their God.
This fits my husband to a T. He once said between moving out and DDay that he "had never felt good enough".

hurtandconfused:
I remember in one conversation he told me if your best girlfriend did something big like this you would forgive. Frankly if my girlfriend stabbed me like he has, I would have nothing to do with her.
You can forgive, but only if the person changed enough to make it worthwhile. You wouldn't want to be stabbed twice over.

Low Orbit (again)
However, it does us all well to remember that we are married to these people. Should we want to feel superior/inferior to the spouses we want to rebuild with?
No, again, I am simply trying to understand why it didn't happen to me. Hopefully if I understand why I didn't have an affair in this marriage, then I will avoid having an affair in any future marriage too.

I think I also realize that the BS has had the crap kicked out of their self-esteem
In my case this was very true, since my WS chose someone whom even his best friend described as f***ing ugly. At least he could have had the decency to choose someone more attractive than me.

and truly needs to know that there is something good and right about them
I never felt that I was a bad person - even though my WS tried to tell me that I was the cause of his affair for 6 weeks after DDay.

While I expect no pity from anyone ....
Congratulations - you have come much farther than my husband ever will.


hurtandconfused:
He now is beating himself up constantly, I have continued to tell him he is a good man, he just screwed up big time and we have to fix it together.
So often it is that when we are forced to go and face up to ourselves and deal with our emotions that we turn out so much stronger. Hope that this is the case for you and your husband.

Thank you all for an interesting discussion. I think I got the answers I was needing.

Hi everyone...Merry Christmas!!

This post hit a nerve with me...because I am still asking myself why, even after almost three years. Sometimes I wish I had had an affair--I had some opportunities with some wonderful men.

I was married for 22 years(together 26 years) in a military marriage. I supported and loved my husband for all of those years. I also was emotionally starved for almost our whole marriage. My husband's needs and wants always came first...and I supported him and our family. An affair never once entered my mind. It felt good to get attention when I needed it--but, I never let it go that far.

My exH on the other hand, seemed to be able to do it without a second thought. He loved the chase, excitement and adoration he received in an affair. It didn't matter to him that his affairs destroyed me--he didn't care. I think he felt he was entitled. Pretty sad. He would always come crying and asking for forgiveness--be ok for a little while and then do it again.

The last few months I have really been trying to figure out why I took being treated this way so long. I still don't know. I guess it was because I felt strongly about my marriage vows, my duty to my family and my husband. I loved and forgave him so many times, and wanted our family to stay together. No one knew what was really going on---and I think now "What a waste of my life". It makes me incredibly sad. Pat

miseryinmissouri:
I guess it was because I felt strongly about my marriage vows, my duty to my family and my husband.

I'm glad you mentioned this. For me that was another thing that leapt into the front of my mind when ever I was confronted with an almost-inappropriate situation. Strangely enough, however, I don't ever remember thinking how much hurt and damage I could have caused my husband. I was probably kept faithful by the thought of breaking promises and the shame that would follow.

Enigma,

When I first went to my h's work to grab a glimpse of the ow, I was absoultly stunned. She is 16 yrs younger than him, much heavier than me, stringy, unkept hair, completely sour, hard look about her. You can tell smiles do not come easy for her and that her life looks to have been very difficult. I have thought many times, he could have done much better than her. I am generally not a judgemental person like this, boy have I found a new person in myself since d-day.
(YEGADS)

Some of the attraction to her beside's them supposably "being friends" I think he received from her a feeling of need. Although he pushes me to handle most aspects at home, I think he liked that feeling of being needed and helping, and she in-turn fed his ego. In the begining following d-day he told the MC and me that she was pretty. I almost think he said that out of shame for his choice. When his friends found out and came to me (prior to me sneaking a peek), they were all like "girl you wouldn't believe who this is, she's scuzzy". He has told me that if he had been looking for someone it would definatly been someone much better looking.

In a way I guess I am glad it was someone like her, I can make up all kinds of excuses for why he did it. If it was actually an attractive person I probably would turn it on to myself more.

While there have been a few times when an A may have been possible, I always told myself that our marriage was blessed by God and that to have an A would be to not only hurt my wife but to gravely sin against God.

Yes, my WW whose religious convictions would appear to most people to be stronger than mine has had an A for years. And she seems to have no current intentions to break it off. Go figure!