The last time I posted here was in the late spring.

My H has had 2 affairs, the most recent lasted about 2 years, with an employee. He confessed to it after one year, and said it was over. I put 100% of my energies into rebuilding our marriage, again, only to find out, almost a year later, that the affair never ended.

(This one was really an EA and PA...whereas I think the first was less intense. It took years to get over the first, but I HAD recovered from that when #2 hit)

To make matters worse, I sensed during the last year that he was very much on the fence about our marriage, and I felt more and more helpless, as time went on, as to how to get him "back on board". I Plan A'd my brains out. Then, without imagining that he was still cheating on me, I decided plan A was not working, and asked him to leave and figure out what he wanted, that I could not live in limbo forever. He of course, did not have to be asked twice to leave.

Then, a week or 2 into the separation, I still was alarmed at how equivocal he seemed at being turfed out by me (call me CLUELESS)...and began a plan B of my own....THEN comes the day I decide to open the cell phone bill and....voila! (despite my blond hair....there more be some brain matter in the ol' head)

Well, then he really had to decide! He was busted. I told him I did not want to see him or speak to him for A LONG TIME (except about thee kids). I was livid and heartbroken and well, you all know that feeling.

I sank into a terrible funk. It was awful.

Well, about 4 days later he calls, and wants to come over to discuss fixing our marriage, ending his affair etc. In shock, I listen.

The very nasty stuff continued however, and it took him a long time to have NC with her...that part killed me...she forwarded to me emails he sent her....pleas for her to not cut him out of his life, despite his ending it with her...sooooo pathetic and slimy. It's all burned into my head, and gets played night and day non-stop. It's excrucuatingly painful.

Ever since then, I have been on a different kind of roller coaster. I was so shocked by all his lies, all over again. I stayed in a kind of shock for awhile. Part of me was relieved that his affair had ended...the torture of knowing he was with her was over. Then I lost my job, spent the summer with the kids, found a new great job, have settled into it, and now it's like THUD...the question over what to do about H is HERE.

I postponed the whole issue for months...not feeling much during that time. But over the last 2 months or so, the entire pain of his lies has been squeezing my heart and brain almost to bursting point. The anger, hate, rage, disgust that I feel is out of control.

The only reason I have not moved to a divorce is bcs I promised myself not to make a decision like this out of emotion, and bcs I have no energy, will, strength to embark on that...none at all. I have to put all my energy into my 3 kids, and new job, and just getting through each day.

The part that kills me is that H continued his A during a time where I know I gave my all to him and our marriage. I gave everything I have to offer...everything. In the past I have been guarded, distant...but I put all that aside and still he did that.

The reasons for his A's : difficulty with family life, chaos of 3 kids, career dissapointments, self-esteem issues, resentment of me for a bunch of things (having kids) and the burden of being the primary $ earner. In short...the guy is as fragile as they come...and simply could not decide, for a loooong time, what he wanted to do. It's disgusting.

He now says that he is 100% sure of what he wants in his life, me and the kids....oh yay for us!(said with dripping sarcasm)

I am sooo angry. I have internalized so much of the crap he put on me over the years all bcs I was afraid of what we would do if he left, and part of me did love him back then. But now I resent so much of what he has tried to pin on me over the years, and the affairs...I feel murderous.

What do I do with these intense feelings? I never read on these boards about the kinds of feelings I am having. I hate the man. It's that simple. No human being has ever been so cruel to me, and treated me with such utter contempt, for so long.

Living in the same house is very trying. I am ok during the week with work and kids etc....but the weekends are hell and I dread the upcoming holidays.

He is scared of me, and just tries to stay out of my line of fire. He thinks if he just weathers the storm, I will calm down and we can try to rebuild again. I just keep repeating the same things: I cannot ever go through this again, never. I am furious that so much of my life has been wasted on this crap, and that my judgement about him and what is going on under my nose is so poor.

To me the fact that despite all me efforts to give him the best of me over the last year, and he continued his A, is the most telling thing. How, please someone tell me, could I ever trust this person again? I have nothing to go on whatsoever.

Everything he does irritates the hell out of me, and everything he says is just an invitation for me to throw it all in his face again. And for the life of me, I don't see why it should be otherwise! As you can see, I am perhaps going nuts!

I realize perfectly well that this is hell for him....but childishly, I soooo want him to live in at least a bit of the hell he has put me through. I am ashamed of the way I speak to him sometimes, and do NOT want my kids to see this. I hate who I am lately around him. He is getting the brunt of the devatated, demented Eleanor.

I am all over the map, I hate how I feel, and I feel totally hopeless about the future. I cannot believe how much of my life this misery has consumed. I have let this happen to me somehow....that devastates me. I have lost my sense of confidence about my decisions, I have no control over my behaviour with H....I am not myself, and have not been myself for an eternity. It all feeds my rage.

What can I do? Where do I go from here? I won't do IC....I went that route before. MC: I do not want to do...as I am sooo not in recovery. I am so sickened by my drama I do not even talk much about it with friends. I am determined that there should be other things in my life to talk about...dammit!

I feel such utter disgust in him as a human being. Until this last bit of drama...I actually could salvage some understanding for the guy and his freakin' issues....but no more. I have totally snapped.

It's very odd bcs as long as I had a goal: get him wanting us again, offer the best me possible, etc...I was ok, I could focus on that. Now, there is no goal, nothing I can DO that will assure me a good relationship with him. I offered my best, we did pretty well, and still, his A went on.

I am dragging myself along in the pit of misery these days. I cry all the time, on the metro, at my desk, watching commercials...I have NOTHING to say to the man...I do not feel like having dinner with him, or spending time with him in any way.

He is putting alot of effort in with the kids. That is good. I see alot of change there with him. But it has no impact on how I feel about him, or about myself for being stuck in this awful mess.

I feel intensely paranoid about weather or not he is cheating again, or with a new person. I cannot believe how crazed I feel...I do not recognize myself at all. I cannot bear the idea of being lied to again! I am absolutely terrified of it, even though I do not love my H at all anymore.

I NEVER used to worry about this stuff. I was confident and trusting, and all that is gone for good now. I find myself have terrible evil thoughts about the "sisterhood"...boy what a joke that was. I feel intensely threatened by all women and feel like nobody can be trusted. I am crazed...and I am not kidding.

Please give me some comments, opnions or encouraging words. I simply do not have energy to do much right now. But I am having such a hard time. I feel so sad and depressed. I cannot do anti-deps...they give be nasty side-effects. I have read every single book out there, and then some.

Thanks for listening.

E

All I can say is, if he is saying he is 100% committed to making the marriage work, be 100% with him. I know he has every excuse and that there is much pain on your part, but forgive him and work together this time into making your marriage work. You will be so glad you did. Trust me on this one.

Hi E,
I know how you feel because I've been there done that.

During my H's last A, before I found out, I was miserable. Feeling like it was during the previous A but not knowing. He was critisizing me for just about anything. He wasn't very talkative at home. I was sad and lonely. Then when I got the cell phone records it all fell into place. I hadn't wanted to believe that he would do it again after seeming to understand how A's happen. We had even renewed vows.

Then I realized all his critisism of me was just to justify his A to himself. The guilt was getting to him so he started drinking and not coming right home after work. The clues started to stare me in the face. He lied even up until I had the records in had to prove it. In time he answered all of my questions.

Anyway, he ended the A without as much turmoil as the one bigger one before this. He seems to get it more this time. He is not a man that can have women as friends. He can not engage in personal convo with women. He can't be the wonderful, charming listener that he so naturally is to these OW. He can't keep being the false knight in shining armor to rescue them and be put on a pedestal himself.

We are in recovery...again...real this time, I hope. If he has yet another A I think I would feel like you do now. I am so sick of the drama and his A's defining my life. I still have times that I question if he is really being real. He is so capable of having a secret second life. Lying is so easy for him. When he is good he is very very good and when he is bad he is awful. He has been very very good for about 11 months now. Can he sustain it. I sure hope so. My husband was very remorseful. The last A lasted 8 months.

I think there is hope for you to regain your love for your H if he is truly remorseful, has been asking for your forgiveness, and is fully engaged in the recovery process. Will read stuff on his own; take the initiative this time to win you back? We went to a Marriage Builder's Weekend. (but at the end of the previous A we did other marriage retreats too; Imago, Gary Smalley, Retrovaille.)

No one would blame you, except maybe your kids someday, if you wanted a D. For the sake of your family unit, I'd have to say give it another go. My H and I love each other more than before either A, I think. I'd wish that for you too.

My three kids are grown and out of the house. We are enjoying our time together. I do so hope it lasts.

I do still snoop, just in case. I check phone records, check redial on his cell phone, recent calls. He doesn't expect any privacy anymore. (he used to think I was his jailer) He is now an open book as far as I can tell. But, like you, I felt a fool that he got away with the last one for 8 months before I found proof and put it together. I love radical honesty. I just hope he will always believe in its value also.

Is your H really willing to do the work with you this time? Does he acknowledge all the work you had done in your plan A? What about phone councelling with Steve Harley? Have you both filled out the questionnaires?

I just want you to know there is hope after the hell you've been through.

All the best to you during this tough time.

My dear Eleanor

I am so sorry to see you back here with such heartbreaking and painful news.

I am not very good at giving advice. All I do know is that if you can't let go of these feelings they will overwhelm your very being and your very core.

I do not know if you are in the right place to start recovery or not. I followed your story before as you know. I am sorry and I wish I could give you more help, but you need to help yourself. Why are you so opposed to IC? If there is so much hatred in your heart, is it best not to be with your H? What effect is this having on you and your children emotionally? I ask these questions for no other reason than perhaps trying to help you focus on one or two things.

Your pain is so immense, I wish I could help ease it. I can't, but there are many of us here who care for you very much.

Thinking of you in very cold London

Lisa

Eleanor-

I still stop by on occasion to look for familiar names and have often wondered how you were getting on. Sorry to read of the roller coaster ride you've been on, I know how totally exhausting it can be. Even though I'm now 1 year post D, I still think about my FWW and the whole saga on a daily basis. I sometimes find myself longing for the way things were, before all the drama.

But I've also slowly come to realize that things weren't so great before DDay and that further, a better life is out there. In short, there are lots of good and caring people out there that really do care. If you make the effort to find support among kindred spirits, you can heal from all of this.

For me, it was a absolute life saver getting involved with support groups and IC's. The support groups were especially helpful as I discovered all these kind and decent people, going through exactly the same things with infidelity, betrayal, deceit, etc. It was a very powerful and healing experience. The key with counselors is to find a good one. They're a dime a dozen but a good one is worth the weight in gold...very similiar to attorneys IMO! Do I still harbor anger and resentment towards my XW for what she brought into my life? Most definitely...but it's become manageable and does get better with time.

I think LIL is right in that you'll need to come to grips with the anger. If you can manage to forgive, the other broken pieces of your life will slowly begin to fall in place. From what you've described, you have a awful lot going for you with kids that love you, a good job, etc.

I'll never forget the analogy my C used when describing my marriage after DDay in terms of a wine glass being hurled against a wall. That life was shattered to the point where it could never be put back together, for good reason. To try and get things back to the way they were would the definition of a exercise in futility. But a new and better life with or without your H is entirely possible. The key on his end is whether he's willing to become transparent enough, for however long it takes, for you to trust him again. Time will tell...

If you continue to do the hard work, you'll discover a new appreciation for things that's impossible to describe. I've experienced enough of it to keep me searching each day for more. Good luck with it all, we're pulling for you.

Thank you all so much for your replies.

Solon

Thank you for your positive optimistic perspective. I wish I could get excited or even motivated about putting even 1% into my marriage...I just feel like I have had the rug whipped out from under my feet too many times.

4give,

It sounds like you are doing well. I am happy for you and your husband. I thing one part that is missing is that I do not feel that he is truly sorry. He does not express himself well at all, at a time when I really need to hear and see remorse.

If I try again, it will only be bcs of the kids. Nobody in my life would blame me at all for leaving him. I did not mention the shame I now feel about being married to such a man. I am embarassed in a social way. That is new. With his latest thing, it's like his behaviour has gone right over the top...and in some way I feel like people are looking at me saying: what in the world is she doing with him? That's obviously the question I ask myself.

Thanks for your thoughts. Good luck with your recovery. Can you tell me about retrouvaille? I have been curious about that program...there are weekends I can get to here in Canada.

Lisa,

Good to hear from you! I have been dropping in lately...looking for your posts. I take your "quietness" as a sign that things are going better for you. There is peace in your relationship with X. I was following your recent story about your BF and friend...what a mess.

I know that the toxic emotions I feel are going to poison me. It's not good, and I have asked H to go, but he says I will have to D him if I want him to go. It's manifestation, he thinks, of his new resolve about his "decision" ...yay...yo be with me. The sicko part of me like to have him around as a "punching bag" when I need to get some rage off my chest. It's all bad, honestly. I HATE the way I am around him...but I just see red when I am with him.

IC: I know exactly what she/he will say, I heard it for 2 years, once a week, 100$ a session...it's burned into my head. I am also sick of myself and this whole drama. That %$#$% H is not going to cost me another zillion bucks in shrink-$.

I just feel helpless about my emotions. I know, from experience (thanks again to H for that) that there are phases in this whole thing....it's like the 5 stages of death. Right now I am in anger....dipping into depression often. One day I will accept. Which of course does not mean I will stay with H. The phases, I think, occur whether or not I am with H. Recovery will have to happen for me personally, and maybe with H in our marriage if I decide to stay....but we'll see about that.

Litch,

I always appreciate your sober, well thought-out opinions. I am glad for you that time is helping you to move on without your X.

I think your message to me is: there is a good world out there with good people, don't be afraid to move on if things are truly broken with H. I know you are right about that. I feel, usually, pretty good about myself and I know that I can make a happy life for myself and kids without H. In a lot of ways, it's an attractive option. I keep waiting to wake up one day and think: the clouds have parted, all is clear to me now...I can move on, end my marriage without any hesitation or anger or fear...and that it's the right thing for me....but maybe that never happens?

I know one thing....I am in no shape to do that right now. How do people do it? where do I get the energy? I am totally exhausted and flattened by the never ending melodrama that my H brings into my life. I am still reeling!

I feel like I did work hard to focus on the parts of me that needed "fixing" , the ways I was not honest with myself, the ways I did not help our marriage...I DID that...and my satisfaction with myself has completely evaporated! the ground never stops shifting! It's the worst feeling. I feel like nothing I do comes to anything with H, and I cannot put resources into something that never gives back. CAll me results oriented.

I also think about how dissatisfied I have been for along time about my marriage....but I had hope, in the last year, that we could create something new. Maybe that's why this last bit hit so hard.

Is there any new person in your life? I hope so.

I do not have access to a support group. I don't know of any around here. I don't know many people who have experienced this...and like i have said, in a way, I'm sick of myself! sick of my own whining and drama! I am a cliche! I want OUT of the cliche!

Anyways...thanks so much for responding.

E

Retrouvaile weekends: you as a couple do not share your story with others. All of your work on asignments is done in the privacy of your room. There are leader couples that share their stories to everyone. Many are pretty bad but that they were able to restore their marriages. Most of the work is in writing letters to each other.
The Catholic church sponsors it but it is for people of all faiths and all seemed comfortable with the format. There is no magic bullet. Even though the weekend was helpful my H still went back the OW2. We had lots of false recoveries with that A.

Although I hope I don't have to be tested as to my resolve, but I do think that I know that there is a life I could have without my husband should he choose to have another A. I could be happy without him. I also have felt as you have questioning if I'm wrong to have stayed with him after 3 affairs. The second one was the worst one as well as the longest. Where people treated my H and OW as if they were Romeo and Juliet. People thought there must have been something wrong with me that's why H was having an A with the rich, respected M-OW whose husband must have been awful and my husband was saving her from him and they were going to be so happy together. I was lied to for them. It was hell. Only a couple of people were there to support me. We lost most of our then friends after that A. The OW divorced because of it. I know what it feels like to be shamed and thought a pathetic fool, less than a piece of ****.

If your H isn't remorseful only you know if it is possible for you to hang in there any longer. Maybe if you started to go towards divorce he'd wake up and fully realize all the pain he is responsible for causing you. It is your right to throw in the towel if that's where you are now.

Having a truly remorseful H makes a lot of difference. I did tell my H the last time that he was free to go be with this new OW...she was separated from her 4th husband and she was a smoker which we aren't. I was just about ready to move on. It is really hard to have any respect left for these infidels who have displayed so little character, integrity, or moral fiber. I know we are all able to fall into A's without clear bounderies. We are all sinners. We can find it in us to forgive.

Even if your marriage ends in a D you will still need to forgive your H for your own health and well being. Doesn't mean you have to have any relationship with him beyond parenting your kids. Unfortunately, that is a life long proposition. He will never be fully out of your life. Unless he is a complete jerk and shirks that responsibility and the joys of being a dad.

Eleanor
your post breaks my heart while at the same time speaks eloquently of what I believe so many have felt and may feel...I think your words speak of feelings more common than we humans like to admit...even here....

And eleanor here it comes...the part where my post becomes full of cliches and things so easier said than done...and yet it is what I believe I would want someone would tell me...EVEN when it is not what I want to hear...

You as a child of God deserve to and experience the good things in life...that having faced adversity...it is even more commanding that we seek the good in ourselves and do what it is in our power to not be negative...since we all have learned or are learning that we can't control others and therefor can not control what agony and heartbreak and others bring...
nor are other responsible for our happiness...

Your feelings towards your husband.. are right on target....
crap...I've had glimpses of those feelings in my marriage....gratefully fleeting even without infidelity...

My fear is that the more you they become known to you...the more you accept these negative feelings and your negative acting out of these feelings..
the longer you do this..
the longer you accept this from yourself...
the harder it will be to stop and go back...
already you don't recongize yourself...
and already you are starting not to like yourself for your actions...
you are in a vicious cycle...

and when one still has the wisdom to know the conflict these actions and feelings cause on you...it is imperative you seek actively change them...

The ultimate battle of infidelity may not be won for you, in having your husband...but in having him somewhere without it destroying you...
and your own destruction is your choice...not something out of your control...

So though you believe you can not control the negative feelings and lovebusters...truth is you can...but until you start doing it...even small ones here and there...the longer you will go on believeing you can't..

you are not victim to your own emotions and feelings....even the negative ones....for if you were...then we would all have to say...the people who acted out infidelity were victim to their emotions....the "postive emotional' ones...and it would illogical to "blame" and "retaliate" our hurt....for something they "couldn't help"..
(***I hope you get my drift on that...it's very early and i am having trouble finding the words to what I want to say...basically...you can and do control your emotions... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )

this is not to blame you and say you are not entitled to your hurt and pain...but it is to say as a mom and woman who is stronger than this...must find a healthy/healthier way to express it...

you can not let this destroy you...
even when feeling like you are in a pitt of dispair..the good news is you can always travel up...

Marriage builder 2X4 for poo-pooing individaul counselling...
you identify so well the feelings
the actions
the aftermath of how you feel
and totally diss one of the important path of changing things....keep moving this way...and you will become crazed embittered self wallowing in pity wife,
mother,
etc...

and personally I don't think you should... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
I think you deserve more than that.
I think you have faught harder, stronger, and faced things and survived things you never thought you could...and don't think you should curl up now and give in to it...

I think you deserve to not place your value and worth on the past actions of husband...and put it back in you where it was and hold on to it tightly....

You must break this cycle...
and you can.
You must process these feeling through in a healthy way that does not destroy you and leave you feeling worse...
and you have no right to deny yourself or your children the counsel in may take to do so....
you think you are sick of dwelling and talking about it...yet your actions say differently as do your thought....rutts are dangerous places to be...

Your husband also is a child of God...and while you can not at this point find much if anything nice to think or feel about him...remember that much of him as well...

pray for humbleness so that you can atleast withhold the hate from spewing out....and not just bottling it in...but really releasing it to God...

I am so very uninterested in the details of his actions...and you also may want to begin to let some of those go...and that takes concentration and energy...but we all know we can push thoughts out that we don't want....
Just think of how good we are at not thinking about the cost of that "special" toy our children wanted, the moment they are opening it...and attempt to enjoy the moment of their excitement...or how we can easily push the thoughts of how many calories is in that chocolate cake...and just enjoy it...we can and do send thoughts away we do not want to entertain...begin to do this with your husbands past actions...the ones that pop in...and give them no power or energy in your mind...

start little...doesn't take much energy to give the old Scarlett Ohara line...
"I'll think about that tomorrow" not to repress them but to assist YOU in not giving them so much power to hurt YOU...

it is you feeding this burden....

blessing to you eleanor...
people have faced even greater adversity in this world and come out on the other side...to feel the sun on their face...and no that life is still precious and good...

and that you deserve that...

ARK **edited to say that I don't think you can control how yoy feel...but how you act out those feelings is what you can control...

<small>[ December 17, 2003, 06:20 AM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

Eleanor-

Forgive me if you pointed this out above, but it seems as though the whole plan B thing went out the window pretty quick, is that right? He expressed a desire to work on things 2-3 weeks into it but really hasn't committed to changing? As you've probably read, Plan B is really about protecting yourself from further distress over the A and it's after affects. It could be something to consider, if possible.

4Give mentioned the importance of your H showing some sort of remorse and I couldn't agree more. My XW expressed remorse and guilt over her A from the very start and in fact continues to do so. I received a letter from her just recently apologizing again for everything that's happened. He has to bring something to the table or it's not going to get any better.

It seems as though you might need to consider going back to a Plan B. Now what that would look like I haven't a clue, I was too emotional at the time for a good A or B. But I can tell you that the best option by far is to fight for your M as hard as you can for as long as you can. You're doing the right thing here, don't let yourself question that. Your H is broken, but who hasn't been from time to time? Given that you don't have access to support groups, Retrouvaille would be a good start, go for it and good luck!

<small>[ December 17, 2003, 06:32 AM: Message edited by: litchfield ]</small>

When H was about to end his last A I had talked to a priest who suggested I speak with a retired psychologist in our church. He uses Rational Emotive Therapy. We did and he wanted us each to read the book: "Three Minute Therapy" see the shortcut below.

http://www.threeminutetherapy.com/

It teaches how to redirect your thinking in a rational way and to take control of your reactions to things. It was useful at the time.
He also talked to H about the meaning of commitment and if he really understood it. I don't think he ever really did.

We are still going through the Marriage Builders books together; abeit slower than we were at first. We went through the Love Busters book and tapes and now we are doing the HNHN book and tapes. Everything helps.

Ark gave some good advice. I have really worked on changing my thinking about things and breaking old bad habits. We don't have to entertain lots of the thoughts we do. Lots of times they are intrusions just like focusing to much on other peoples judgements of us.

There is a helpful meditation/observation technique that I learned at http://www.fhu.com
They used to have it so you could listen to it on that site without buying the tape or CD, but I don't know anymore.

I feel for you. I still believe that you can still have a better marriage than you ever have before and heal from all of this within your marriage. It is truly possible if you are both on the same page with it. Has your H been willing to read any of SAA or Torn Asunder, Not Just Friends? I have all of these and sometimes would pick pertinent stuff out for H to read as well as great posts on this forum. Actions always are better than just the words. They have taught us not to their words.

Eleanor:

Have you read this one? "The Power of Now" by Eckhart Tolle. My favorite of all the books I've read 2 get through this crap we have 2 get through. Here's a 2ple of 2uotes:

"The ego believes that in your resistance lies your strength, whereas in truth resistance cuts you off from Being, the only place of true power. Resistance is weakness and fear masquerading as strength. What the ego sees as weakness is your Being in its purity, innocence, and power. What it sees as strength is weakness. So the ego exists in a continuous resistance-mode and plays counterfeit roles to cover up your "weakness," which in truth is your power.
Until there is surrender, unconscious role-playing constitutes a large part of human interaction. In surrender, you no longer need ego defenses and false masks. You become very simple, very real. "That's dangerous," says the ego. "You'll get hurt. You'll become vulnerable." What the ego doesn't know, of course, is that only through the letting go of resistance, through becoming "vulnerable," can you discover your true and essential invulnerability."

and:

"Enlightenment through suffering - the way of the cross - means to be forced into the kingdom of heaven kicking and screaming. You finally surrender because you can't stand the pain anymore, but the pain could go on for a long time until this happens. Enlightenment consciously chosen means to relinquish your attachment to past and future and to make the Now the main focus of your life. It means choosing to dwell in the state of presence rather than in time. It means saying yes to what *is*. You then don't need pain anymore. How much more time do you think you will need before you are ale to say "I will create no more pain, no more suffering?" How much more pain do you need before you can make that choice?

If you think that you need more time, you will get more time - and more pain. Time and pain are inseparable."


-Eckhart Tolle, "The Power of Now"

Eleanor,

I can identify where you are in so many ways. There comes a point in our lives where we reach a breaking point and simply cannot give any more. I reached that point in my M last year and from the sound of this post, you seemed to have reached that point yourself. While I have the utmost respect for other's opinions on this board, I feel as if I have to give you another line of thought. When I reached the point where I could simply not give any more, I felt as if the M was suffocating me. It felt as if I was drowning in a sea of misery and really hated the person I was becoming especially when around my STBXW. I knew that if I continued, it would destroy me so I had to leave and I was the one who ended the M even though I know I could have salvaged it if I wanted to. I simply got to a point where I did not want the M any longer and that may be where you are. If that is the case, then my advice would be to end it and begin your new life.

Before you do though, I would suggest one thing. Take a few days or a week to be alone and I mean completely alone, no contact with anyone who has any knowledge of you or your family, but be sure to let your family and friends know what you are doing so they won't worry. Take that time to search your soul and find out if you really are ready to end the M and, if you are, then do it. Life is short and you have spent a long time trying to save your M. Don't spend any more precious time on something that you do not want. However, if during your alone time you find that even a small part of you still wants the M, then go home and give it your all. During the time I took I found that there was a lot to life that I was missing. I met some new people and saw the potential for happiness in my life without my W. The same may happen to you, or you may find that you miss your H more than you think you will. Either way, you may get some answers.

My point is that the first thing I think you should do is figure out exactly what you want for the future and then take action. My thoughts and prayers are with you. Please keep us updated on your situation.

God Bless,
B

Thank you all for taking the time to reply.

4give

Thanks for the info about retrouvaille. I hope that one day my frame of mind will permit me to get excited about doing that. H has little use for IC or MC, and I think Retrouvaille could be a good option.

I liked the link to the behavioral psych site. I know that way of thinking is true. I believe that all our emotions are thoughts, and subject to change, if we want. I worked hard in the past to "deconstruct" the message of H`s affairs. Intellectually i know it's true that H's affairs do not have to cause me to feel xyz...My only defense for my present state is that I want to try to make sense of things, so that I can make a decision about what to do. Thinking about it all...well...it just makes me think about how wasted my efforts seem now, how many years have been lost in this mess, the mothering that I have not done to my best abilities bcs of my preoccupation with this stuff...it angers me.

How do you get over feeling "ashamed" to be with your H? I suppose the key is in the renewed relationship that you have with your H...you know it has been worth it, and that is enough. I know this issue is mainly about my ego...and in that sense, I know that I have to deal with that on my own, and get over it.

I know I will need to forgive H for what he did, and I know that one day I will. I never thought that was possible, and was really puzzled over that whole issue after H`s fist affair, but the great thing I did learn from that experience is what exactly it felt like to forgive, and that I can do it. I describe it as the moment, that slowly crept up on me, where I was able to say: what he did does not hurt me nearly as much any more, and I am more interested in seeing what kind of future we can build together, than moaning about the past. It took 2 years last time for that moment to come...but it did.

This time, I know it will come one day..in time I suppose. I know I am not a victim. I love life, and want to live it to the fullest. I do think that forgiveness will come much faster and permanently without H. Yes, we are all sinners...I am so not perfect...especially lately.

Ark,

Thanks so much for you long post. I know it is ME feeding the anger myself. I know it`s only me dredging up all his evil doings constantly. I know I have the power to stop it. It`s crazy, I know.

I ask myself constantly: why am I doing this? Why can`t I just use some neat mental trick and "re-interpret" H`s crap so that it goes like this: H has issues, H acted out his issues, H is a poor communicator, H dealt with his issues in harmful ways, H`s behaviour is not a reflection on me, my desirability, my skills as a partner, wife, etc.

All I can say for myself is that I do not want this to happen to me ever again, so all I do is probe the last several years of events looking for a thread, a reason to believe that NOW it could be different! I come up with: squat!

ALl this "thinking" and wondering just makes my head spin and I get angry thinking about it all again.

I am desperately looking for a reason to believe that things could be different. I don't see one.

I want him to know that he cannot do this to me again....but obviously, that holds no weight for him. I want him to do the impossible: guarantee me all the security I need. Sadly, at this point, I don`t believe anything he says.


2long,

I love those quotes, and I will look at the book you suggested.

I have trouble, obviously, with the pratical application of these principles. Vulnerabilty and focus on the present are the only ways to get the most out of life. I know that I cannot have a close intimate relationship without vulnerability and showing my "soft under-belly", and of course, I do want a full close relationship. But it is not compatible with the wall of anger, defensiveness and protection that I have put up between H and me. But a person cannot give everything and get trampled all the time either no? It's irrational to do that. I am no masochist. I guess the only solution is to get out, and preserve my ability to be open and vulnerable...hoping to meet a like-minded person one day.

Living in the present: yes, I know you are right. I realize that I consciously avoid that bcs I am searching for a way to "understand" H's actions, and assess the present risk, or threat. It`s silly I know. I thought things were ok before, and was blindsided by another A. No amount of thinking, analyzing, reviewing of the past will protect me from the future, and it only ruins the present. Great. SO what the HELL do I do? How can I stay safe from this man's nutty behaviour????? Please don't tell me to trust him!

Are you suggesting that I let down my guard, carpe diem, stop wondering if H is/will cheat on me again, and try to re-connect with him? I realize that is supposedly the ultimate goal...but how in the world can I do that now? I mean I know it's Christmas and all but still!

Moving,

SO much of what you write is exactly how I feel. Suffocated by my M. I have this visual thing where I am literally unhitching my wagon from his, and I just zoom off into the distance...free...light...fast! OOuuu what a feeling, I feel like giggling whenever I think about it.

I know I have to decide, and soon, about what to do, and then put all me energies into that decision. Until then, I am just dragging myself, and kids etc, along...it's not healthy. What do you do when you have no energy for that exercise...or the resulting path that you will have to "throw" yourself into? I feel a total lack of courage right now, and in a way I know what I am doing is not fair...living with H so I can be mean to him, refusing to decide what to do...making hash of the present.

One thing you said is something I worry about too: the fact that I hate who I am becoming. I am nasty, mean, untrusting, paranoid, and soooo much more. I have a mouth on me and boy can I use it. It scares me. My whole "rosy" view of the world is really broken...I am not talking about a childlike view of things, but rather my basic optimism. It's gone. I hate that and I want to preserve it. I do not want to become a permanently bitter person...but I fear that'S where I am going.

I want to do what you suggest: take the time to think about what to do, then do it. I am realizing that the answers are not going to creep up on me all by themselves.

Litch,

Plan B was very short. After he "ended" it with OW...he did not move back in for about another month. During that time we talked alot...and he did say many things, but I did not sense, and still do not sense a fundamental change in him. He is exhausted from his own foolishness, and it's like he just wants to lay down, rest, and move on...and that's it! He is open to most changes I may want in our M....but the thing is...this is what we did last year! we did all this wonderful marriage building...while he was still in the A!

You can understand my total lack on enthusiasm about building anything with him now!

I must say, he has done most things, in the last couple of months, "right" (he could show alot more remorse though)...but I just do not want to get suckid in again, and hurt. I could not survive another bout of this crap. He is poster child for "too little, too late."


There is no imminent issue with me...no immediate crisis that I have to deal with. Sometimes those are easier!

Honestly, I have never been at such a crossroads. Never been so discouraged by one human being, never felt so unsure about myself, my judgement, or what to do.

Nobody ever talks much about the judgement issue. I guess I always prided myself (sin!) on making good decisions, for me (school, career etc) and the kids, I even think I pick paint colours pretty competently, and have navigated through most of life pretty well in many repsects, but boy do I suck when it comes to matters of the heart! And look how many times I got duped! It's stunning really. And by a person I could never have imagined could pull it off! He's a spectacular liar...really! I just reel over what a poor judge of character I really am! I am nervous about my ability to make a good decision about this...I have a really bad track record. I am mad at myself for being so stupid. Somehow I let myself languish in a harmful situation for YEARS! how can this be?! (again, this is my pathetic ego speaking, I know) But bottom line: how do I trust myself now? That's a big qustion I struggle with.

Thanks everyone.

E

Eleanor:

"Are you suggesting that I let down my guard, carpe diem, stop wondering if H is/will cheat on me again, and try to re-connect with him? "

No. The objective is 2 reconnect with yourself. Not 2 let your perception of the world around you determine how you feel. Not 2 dwell on the past or worry about the fu2ure, because they don't even exist except in our memories and imaginations.

Let your H worry about his own problems. Don't make them yours.

Easier said than done, I know, having flopped around myself for almost 2 years. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-ol' 2long

2long:

I really like this issue, and I think that it may be the start of me gaining some peace of mind.

After H confessed to the OW2, a year ago, I did just what you suggest: refused to let in poison me, threw myself into making my life the best I possibly could and resolved not let H's actions poison my world view, or the chances of making my M work. In so many ways, and despite his continued A, I am SO much happier with who I am now, than I was then. I am actually (cringeing) greatful that something positive came out of all that mess.

But there is still the reality that the part of me that was still sharing a life with H, sharing myself emotionally, physically etc. was hurt badly. I can be happy alone, I know that. But as long as I am with him I need to feel respected, liked, and I need honesty. I need to be sure of the honesty.

I need to trust my judgement and keep myself safer than I have been. I need to have better judgement!

I have to let go of any illusion of control over other people. But like I said, that would be irrational in my present situation. Every fibre of my being is screaming at me: protect yourself!!!! How do I not listen????

Eleanor:

I think the point is that you DO listen. You DO protect yourself.

I've got a meeting in a few minutes, but I'll come back in a few hours and say more.

best,
-ol' 2long

Eleanor,

So much of what you say is so reminisent of things I've said and felt after my H's 2nd A.
I so thought that I was going to die a bitter old woman. I was such a victim and I felt to 'right'. I've learned a lot about my pride since then and now accept that I'm not always right or a victim really.

There is a bit less shame after this 3rd A because far fewer people know about it or if they know they act as if they don't. (We are at the one yr. anniv. of the last D-day)

H is well liked. He's the comic, easy going guy. Tends to keep things light. Enjoyed his OW when they were fun for him. I am a bit more serious, quiet, sort of considered shy?

One of my concerns is how my daughter was somewhat disappointed in my forgiving him yet again, how her opinion of me may have been diminished. She loves her Dad, so I think, now, she's happy we are still together. She was in Europe at the time and I told her because I was upset. I shouldn't have, I know. I thought it meant divorce when I found out. I am so concerned that our experiences and especially their Dad's behavior will have a negative effect on her future marriage or that of our sons.

Maybe you could suggest a trip to Orlando, FL at the end of January for the Marriage Builders Weekend for the two of you. That would be a good break from winter for you also. If he really is willing to do something to improve your marriage now this could help to move you both toward recovery again. There is a good followup program too.

anger is a survival mechanism, you are experienceing a healthy response to an unsafe condition...and you are feeling crazy cause you force yourself to remain in the unsafe circumstance.

1. You examine the anger to see if it makes sense, is justified....obviously it is.

2. You devise a plan to be safe.....you haven't done that.

3. You carry out the plan.


You are at war with yourself eleanor, this has nothing to do with H. All your feelings and concerns are rational, and need to be acted on. (well, don't kill him though). I suspect also you are having to deal with another issue, realizeing while you may want, feel committment to, the marriage....you no longer choose this man to be a life partner....but obviously you can't have it both ways, so feel crazed as you live an un-authentic life. You wonder if you can choose him again....no one knows that but you....your rhetoric suggests no, that the marriage will be a sacrificial one, and an accomodation at best. It is ok to listen to yourself eleanor, and what you want.

How to proceed, well in cases of extreme conflict, and questioning of spending a life together, a controlled seperation seems to be of value, and there are books about such things. It provides enough space to reduce the emotional tension, but is not meant to be a precursor to divorce. During this time you can observe how well he committs himself to safe behaviour, counselling, and applying rules of protection....you still have all the financial/parenting support, just don't have him in your face all the time...and can honestly sort out your own feelings about choosing him.

The type of reaction you expressed in your first post is indicative of a life crisis, you are at an important crossroads, and are trying to muster the pshchological energy to consider all options, don't squander these resources by simply letting life take over.....make a plan and carry it out.

<small>[ December 18, 2003, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

Eleanor,

There are a couple of points I would like to address in your last reply. The giggling feeling you describe I can identify with all too well. I used to call it the "WoooHooo" feeling and it felt so good to look forward to a brighter future. Don't lose that feeling because regardless of which path you take, while there will be down times, the future WILL be brighter.

I'd also like to pass on a bit of wisdom that a good friend imparted on me last year. He said when you think about the past, whether it be two minutes ago or two years ago, remember that, good or bad, those moments are gone forever except in your memory. You reading the first paragraph of this message is now part of your past and the moment of reading that the first time is now gone. You can relive the past in your mind, but it is still the past. By the same token, what is to come has not yet happened. All we truly have in life is this moment, right here, right now. To spend this moment regretting the past or worrying about the future takes away the majic of the here and now.

Your rosy view of the world may be broken, but it will not last. Trust me on that, I have been there and the time will come when you have that same view again. Make no mistake, this experience will change you but you have the power to make it change you for the better. You will find at some point that you will indeed let down your guard and love again. Although you will have a hard time believing this right now, you could actually get to that point with your H again.

You are absolutely right in your thinking that this was H's issue and not a reflection on you or your desirability or "skill" as a W. Keeping forcing that thought in your head and you will believe it eventually, sort of a "fake it till you make it". You know deep down that it is true anyway. That's what I had to do myself and I learned how little sense many people make over the past couple of years. In my situation I am 5'9" tall, 180 lbs, in great physical shape, I make 6 figures a year and we had (which I now have) a very nice home in an upscale neighborhood, two cars, the works. In 14 years, there was not a single week that my W did not receive a rose from me "just because". She had an A and is now living with a man who has not worked in 20 years (they are living on welfare), he is over 300 lbs and, to use a friends description "as ugly as a water buffalo" (I love that phrase <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ). There was simply no logical explanation for what she did. For so long I tried to figure out why until I realized that it was her who was messed up and not anything I was or was not. The unfortunate part for her is that now that she has realized that she is living a life full of regrets. My point is that you are completely right in your thoughts that these are your H's issues and not yours. Obviously you and I have made and will continue to make mistakes in our lives and nobody is perfect, but don't ever look for reasons for your H's actions in yourself.

Work on yourself, but do it for you first and foremost. This is one time in your life when you need to be selfish. You have children who need you and no doubt others who depend on you, but before you can care for anyone else, you must care for yourself. That means coming to terms with what was and what is and healing yourself so you can be there for others. You WILL NOT become a permanently bitter person because you are better than that. I had that same fear and here I am happier than I have been in years and even falling in love again. Whoda thunk it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Grasp each moment and live it to the fullest. In time you will look upon this as one more experience in a lifetime of experiences.


God Bless,
B

4give,

I can really identify with what you said about your kids. My boys are young, but I am concerned all the same about the years of turmoil they have been through, and the message I want to send them about men, women, relationships. I want them to grow up to have good judgement, strong characters, and happy lives. I want them to respect me and see a good example when they look at me and my choices. So far, I am not doing too well with this. In fact, I would say my kids have never even met ME. This stuff started shortly after the birth of my eldest...and has not stopped since. I have been on a roller coaster for years.

I love the idea of the weekend in Fla. We have snow up here...up to our noses! ugh! I could only consider it if I had decided to give 100% of myself to our marriage...and I am just not *there* right now. Over the years I have really tired of feeding H books, and other self-help type stuff. I am totally into all that stuff....he is SO not. There is only so much wall banging I can do.

sufdb,

Thanks for you post. I know I need a plan, and you are right, now I am just flopping around aimlessly causing damage to myself and others in the process.

I think I will consider a controlled separation. The little bit I know about it, I like. Intuitively I know we need a time out. I also know that if we are to have any chance at all, I need space and breathing room , and a safe distance at which to assess his behaviour...and possible changes. I have said to him many times: I do not want to be the "laboratory" of his new behaviour. I want to *know* that he is cured!

I do think that once I am rid of him...that it may very well be the end. I think it's very likely that I will feel so good, I will not look back. I know I sound contradictory, and it's true that I am not sure what to do, but my hesitation is about moving to a separation is that I think it will be over...divorce. Also, I worry that he will take up with OW again, and hurt me again, before I have even been able to make a decision. It's very silly, I know! If he does do that, well, that will help decide things...won't it?! But ouch it would still hurt.

Moving,

I re-read your post a few times. You give me alot of hope. It's very positive to see a person rebuild his life so well after all that.

I want to focus on me and the kids only. But H being around is a negative distraction. He skulks around the house, looking for ways to "help"...waiting for instructions about how he can make it all better for me. Boy can I be mean to him...I could give classes on the subject. I hate it all. I mentioned controlled separation above...and I am going to have a big think about it.

I know I cannot control/change the past. But the past is the only guide I have as to how to plan the future and make important decisions. I can be as freakin' optimistic as I like...but that won't get me what I want out of another person!

I try hard to live in the moment with the kids, and friends. I am able, most times, to really enjoy the moment. But that all changes around H.

I wish I could say that I do not think about the OW and what she looks like, what she has to offer...let's just say I don't come away from that mental trip as *secure* as you do. I think any woman would have a great deal of trouble contemplating an OW 11 years younger, no kids, downtown apt, no responsibilitie, all that. Make no mistake...I KNOW I am a great catch and all that...but there are dark moments of feeling very crappy...I tell you.

Onward...time to go home. Thanks all. Will check back tonight.

xoxox

E