Eleanor

I wanted to catch up on your thread, but haven't had the time - I'm off tomorrow to Germany for a wedding and then back and straight to my Mum's for Christmas. However, I am happy to see you are getting lots of good advice (I hope!).

But just briefly, one thing you said to me about "I sense there is peace between you and your X" interested me. I pick up on it because I guess if I were in your situation, there would be no peace at all!!! I don't know if this will help you at all, but I have had to come to terms with what I did, bad decisions I made, choices and the resulting onslaught of that - I am at peace with myself (for the most part), and therefore, I let go of him and what he is doing. X was probably like you are now. He walked away and went off with someone else. I'm not suggesting you do that, but the status quo must change to save your sanity. I do not know if your situation is healthy to be in. I wonder whether you created boundaries when your H came back after Plan B?

Maybe I'm rambling a little again, but I wanted to know I was thinking of you. I am doing well, and my silence is indication of that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I am here still though, lurking, reading, trying to help if I can.

Thinking of you.

Lisa

P.S. Litchfield - how are you??????? Haven't seen you in a while.

Lisa,

Have fun in Germany. Thanks for stopping by. My thoughts about what you wrote are going to sound maybe very unsympathetic to you, and your situation...but is not meant to be so.

My H makes comments to the effect that he is "at peace" with what he did, that he has put it behind him, and things to that effect. I have to tell you....I see bright red when I hear that. How dare he! How can he shag his wat through life and the next day be at peace with it???? It's like there is something missing in the ol' noggin there!

Big difference with your situation...you earned your peace, and then some. You exhausted every avenue for yourself and your relationship, and still he turned away. You showed him your remorse and your willingness to rebuild...and still he left. My H might argue that he has done the same...but I would not agree. And anyways...there was so much more badness (I am inventing this word) in my case, more affairs, more ddays. It all adds up to, well, more!

I don't wish for him to rip himself up daily over this, no. I wish for him to get to the bottom of his issues and convince me that he is cured, changed, morphed into a trust-worthy man. If he does that, all the work that this entails, then he deserves his peace, with or without me.

E

Eleanor-

Your idea of a controlled separation is a worthwhile consideration given that support groups and/or more IC don't sound like viable options. From what you've described, it seems as though you stayed in sort of a on-again off-again Plan A until most of the love you had for your H vanished. Perhaps after you've had some time for reflection away from the distractions of your day to day dealings with H, the path ahead will become clearer. The key of course would be to lay down a firm set of boundaries and stick with them.

You should also try not be too hard on yourself with regards to past judgement, temper, amount of attention devoted to your children, etc. Everyone deals with news of this sort of thing leaping into their lives differently. Me? I could barely function for months, did the infidelity diet, went on Anti - D's, almost lost my job because I couldn't concentrate, etc. My life was a disaster area for a long time.

In the midst of all that turmoil, I did a very poor Plan A/B with too many mistakes to list. But along the way I learned about the importance of forgiveness and accepting my part in the poor state of my M prior to her A. I also discovered how to stand on my own again, without her. I guess what I'm getting at is that there are nuggets you can glean from the carnage too, if you look. You can do it.......


PS LIL, I'm doing well, thanks for asking! Been dating a little, putting in lots of time at work and devoting most of my free time to outdoor pursuits (hunting, fishing, hiking, camping) I'm going to try and catch up on your post about the friend to see if I can lend any ideas. Hope all is well in London, have a Merry Christmas!!

Eleanor,

It makes me feel very good to know that my words can provide some help to you. When you said you read my post I am not sure if this is the one you are talking about, but in case it's not, here is a link to my full story. Maybe something in it can help you in some way:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=025574#000000

I have learned so much in the past year about myself, my M and life in general. I met my STBXW when I was 18 and married at 23 so I did not get a chance to experience a real single life and I believe now that that skewed my view of the world somewhat and my view of myself. During high school I was something of a geek <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> and didn't date a lot so when I met my STBXW and we fell in love, I guess I believed that I could do no better. Looking back now, I can see that the M was dysfunctional in so many ways. I can see clearly now that what I was looking for (and never truly received) in my M was approval. I never seemed to be enough for her somehow. Her A only reinforced that belief to the point where I felt there must be something major wrong with me, that my lack of whatever it was had caused all these problems. That was something I had to come to terms with myself over the past year and I have realized that she reinforced that "inadequate" feeling in me for her own reasons.

When I took my "alone time" last year I forced myself to go out and mix with people even though I really did not feel in the mood to do so. The first night I went to a dance bar by myself (boy was that a scary experience <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) and I experienced something I never expected. Over the course of a couple hours I was approached by three very beautiful, engaging ladies. I didn't do anything about it of course, but it was like someone hit my over the head and showed me I did indeed have something to offer and I could be appealing to members of the fairer sex. Later that night it dawned on me that, other than my boys, the main reason I wanted the M so badly was quite simply a fear of the alternative. I was so afraid of being alone that I had been willing to endure the pain and hurt. Once I realized that I would not, in fact, spend the rest of my life alone, the decision to leave the M became so easy. I also realized during that time that I was actually doing an incredible disservice to my boys because they were experiencing a dysfunctional R between their Mom and Dad and the impressions that created could impact them for the rest of their lives.

So much has happened in the last year, but the most wonderful thing of all is the lady I have found. I used to wonder if I'd be able to attract someone physically attractive and now I know. This lady is not just beautiful, she is drop-dead gorgeous. When she walks into a room, heads turn. On top of that, she is the most honest person I have ever met. If she thinks it or if she feels it, she says it. There are actually certain people who know her who think she is too honest, too bold, but I wouldn't have it any other way. There is no guessing, no wondering and no games with her, I always know where I stand and it is so wonderful.

You know, sometimes I wonder if I should even be posting on this board because my experience has taught me that a M should not always be saved. I do beileve in MB principles but I also believe that there comes a time for some when one needs to get out of the M to save their own soul, so to speak.

OK, enough about me. In your reply, you talked about the OW being younger, no kids, etc. Right there you defined the reason for the A and I believe it boils down to one simple thing in your H - insecurity. Men need to know that we are appealing to the opposite sex, it's part of who we are. In some men, this need becomes so prevalent that, when given a situation where a young, attractive woman finds him attractive he will make the leap to an A simply because it reinforces his "manhood". That is HIS issue with insecurity and nothing you could do or be could change that. He needs to recognize that and work through that issue himself. As for him being "at peace", good for him, but now it's time he helped you find peace since you are the one he hurt so badly. If he is asking you what you need, that is actually a good start. Tell him exactly what it is you need from him because I can pretty much guarantee you he is not getting it. Before he can help you though, you need to process through the anger you are feeling and heal yourself before you can move on whichever path you take. It may take time, but you CAN do it.

God Bless,
B

Moving:

"You know, sometimes I wonder if I should even be posting on this board because my experience has taught me that a M should not always be saved. I do beileve in MB principles but I also believe that there comes a time for some when one needs to get out of the M to save their own soul, so to speak."

The Harleys don't believe that every M should be saved. You have valuable insight for people here. You SHOULD keep posting. ...and saving one's sould is the core process that must occur for any of the rest of it 2 have a chance.

Eleanor:

Since you guys were talking about the past, fu2re and NOW, I thought I'd plunk down another one of my favorite Tolle 2uotes that I used in a thread of mine last June:

2long: Thought for 2day about salvation and "enlightened relationships":

"True salvation is a state of freedom - from fear, from suffering, from a perceived state of lack and insufficiency and therefore from all wanting, needing, grasping, and clinging. It is freedom from compulsive thinking, from negativity, and above all from past and future as a psychological need. Your mind is telling you that you cannot get there from here. Something needs to happen, or you need to become this or that before you can be free and fulfilled. It is saying, in fact, that you need time - that you need to find, sort out, do, achieve, acquire, become, or understand something before you can be free or complete. You see time as the means to salvation, whereas in truth it is the greatest obstacle to salvation. You think that you can't get there from where and who you are at this moment because you are not yet complete or good enough, but the truth is that here and now is the only point from where you *can* get there. You "get" there by realizing that you *are* there already. You find God the moment you realize that you don't need to seek God. So there is no *only* way to salvation: Any condition can be used, but no particular condition is needed. However, there is only one point of access: the Now. There can be no salvation away from this moment. You are lonely and without a partner? Enter the Now from there. You are in a relationship? Enter the Now from there.

There is nothing you can ever do or attain that will get you closer to salvation than it is at this moment. This may be hard to grasp for a mind accustomed to thinking that everything worthwhile is in the future. Nor can anything that you ever did or that was done to you in the past prevent you from saying yes to what *is* and taking your attention deeply into the Now. You cannot do this in the future. You do it now or not at all."

-Eckhart Tolle, "The Power of Now"

-ol' 2long

Moving,

I went and read your thread. A sad story...especially considering how much you put into that marriage. It's impossible to see how you could have contributed to the downfall of things with your wife. I'm sure things were not perfect...but they sure sounded that way!

Some things you say make me think. My H too was a bit of a geek...did not think of himself as great with the women, and then I came along and in a way he idolized me. I was not someone, he thought, he could "get"...but I saw so much good in the guy then, and was sure I had a great catch in him. I think he never really got over his inferiority complex...and when life got tough...and attention came from the OW(s)...he was an insecure man again, needing a fix.

But is he "fixed"? Isn't insecurity like that just a bottomless pit that can never really be filled up? It has to come from within, no? Life is full of dips, and no spouse can ever fill you up up on every count all the time! When I make this point to H...he admits alot of it. That insecurity is a major issue....that our marriage is the "scene of the crime" ie: the feelings of insecurity (fatherhood, providerhood husband etc)...that he was desperate to feel better...and could do it from within.

So how in the world can that change now?

Your story might have been different if, at the end of all the ddays, your wife dragged herself back and pleaded to come back. In fact, she decided to go off with OM. You had to find peace and let your love for her go. But what if she did as my H? What if you kept being offered the chance to save your family and marriage? I honestly do not think I am hesitating out of any fear that I will not meet someone else. I am confident of what I have to offer. I am a neat chick! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I know if H had really left, I would have done as you have. It's a big burden to have to make the decision myself...to make the final risk-evaluation. Love is strange. I really believe in the verb aspect of it. I could put all my energies back into us and create love for him again. At least I think so. But I cannot go through this again.

I think you do belong on MB....all voices help in navigating these difficult times. Don't go away!

E

Eleanor,

My STBXW did, in fact, drag herself back after all the D-Days and plead to come home. It was a very short time after she finally moved out of the house and into an apartment. After a few days, she called and told me that she had realized all she had done and truly wanted me back. At that point she started doing everything I had wanted her to do for years. She initiated NC with OM on her own and maintained it, she promised to come completely clean about everything (but said she would need to do so slowly), she begged and pleaded and realy started working on the M like never before. I have no doubt that had I taken her back, we would, in all likliehood be well into recovery by now. The problem was it was just too late. This lasted a couple of weeks and I started spending time with her trying to figure out if I was able to go at it again, but the truth is, the more time I spent with her, the more I wanted to get away from her. That's when I decided to take my "alone time" and that was when I realized that I simply could not go back, that I truly did not want the M any longer. It was when I told her that that she hooked up with OM again. She has told me countless times since that she knew all the wrong she had done and we could have saved the M if I wanted to, but she could not bear to be alone so she "settled" for him because she could not have me.

It is indeed a big burden - to make the decision yourself, but I knew it had to be done. In your last message, you said:

"I could put all my energies back into us and create love for him again. At least I think so."

In my case I KNEW that I couldn't, that there would never be any love for her in my heart again. This is where the Harley's are so right about Plan A and B. If I had read about and understood those principles sooner, I would have done Plan B much earlier and preserved some of the love I had for her. Because I did not understand and waited so long, the love died, all of it. That's how I knew I could never go back, there was nothing left to build on. I don't really believe you are at that point yet simply because you are not certain. In my case, there was no doubt, no if's, no maybe's, I simply knew with all my being that I couldn't. Maybe with you it is different, but I would think if you are not sure then there may indeed be something there to build on. It will take lots of time and there will be downtimes, but I don't think your love bank is completely empty just yet.

And, Eleanor and 2Long, thanks for the vote of confidence. It feels very good to be able to help others in some small way considering this board was my lifeline for quite some time a year ago.

God Bless and Merry Christmas,

B

Litch,

Thanks again for your reply. I fear I am waffling horribly about what to do. Thanks for the re-assurance about the kids. I can get over the last years where they are concerned, if I can get things right for the future. I want to make good decisions, no pressure or anything..ha!

2Long,

Great quote...if only I hadn't had 2 glasses of wine at today's xmas office lunch, they would make so much more sense to me. Mind you these days, I thank God for the escape of alcohol (No I do not need AA folks...I am in fact a very light drinker).

One of my favorite thinkers once said: "freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose". (Janis Joplin) The point being life and reality is a creative process that occurs in the now. It's how you decide to approach it, and interpret your reality. I am aware of the particular spin I have going on things...I am painting myself into a corner...it's a defensive reaction. Rational under the circumstances. Change is always available to me. Ok fine, great, but...

I have to make a few decisions...despite my anger over the past, I will have to make a decision that takes lot of things into account.

Moving,

SOrry for messing up the facts of your story.

In a way I envy the clarity you had when you knew that you could not make another go of it with your wife. I respect your decision, absolutely, but when you say you KNEW you could not love her again, was any part of that based of feelings of hurt, the need to protect yourself, and get out of a bad situation? COuld you not have imagined your W re-committing to you and respecting her for finally getting it right?

It's theoretical at best, I know, and considering that she went back to OM...well, that says alot. It might have been interresting had she decided to stay alone, work on herself and plan A you like mad from afar. ANyways, the what-ifs go on forever.

I was reading on another thread about why some people have affairs while others don't. I have been thinking about H. He is one of those people who does not have a strong sense of self. His "identity" is not solid...he does not know what he stands for, what he can live with about himself....where he draws the line, or any line. His insecurity creates a void in him that makes him quite rudderless. I wonder how that can be helped. I am quite different. It's one of the reasons he likes me. I am usually quite sure of myself, by comparison. I march through life, and I have good sense of who I am...no matter what.

Infidelity holds little for me. I would not like myself much. It's the last thing that would occur to me to do. Strange. When I am feeling down etc, it does not last long, and I usually find a way to help myself, from within.

Anyways...gotta go for a bit.

Hi Eleanor,

You've had lots of responses and lots of great advice and suggestions. You also sound less angry than your first post! So I guess all this thinking is a good thing... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I posted a long response all about my anger against my H and what I've learned since then. Check it out if you feel so inclined... thoughts about divorce...if so, do you see any similarities in how we feel? (The causes are different but it doesn't matter.)

My anger was pre D-day but was immense. (You've described me well in your first post.) Only a lengthy physical break gave me enough distance to see past the anger to the sorrow I really felt. I guess the obvious parallel that I've interpreted between us is simply that if you are that angry, it means there are still intense feelings.

As someone else mentioned, anger is a logical reaction to betrayal, hurt, humiliation, etc. But that doesn't mean it is the reaction you want to have, the state you want to exist in. I read your early post (I confess that uncharacteristically I have not read this whole thread!) and THAT feeling spoke strongly to me. After all, lots of people are angry on these boards but they also seem to feel fully justified in being so and continuing on that way.

You feel justified in being angry (so did I) but yet you don't WANT to feel angry.

In order to let go of the anger, in order to see past it to the root cause, in order to let go of your H and HIS problems...in order to take control of YOUR life and live it the way you want to do so, to give your kids the example you want them to have...how do you cope with the underlying cause, your FEAR?

Anyhow, I promised not to prattle on...let me know if you want to talk more. I am always happy to share techniques that worked for me...awed

P.S. I don't mean to suggest that the rest of our situations are the same...ie. that you need to Plan A your H! Just that I worked through my anger, I am free of it, I emotionally detached from my H and his consequences of his behaviour...and all of this work has given me back...ME. I am the one who decides how I will act.

Those are the coping/healing techniques I am referring to...obviously your H's problems are HIS own, and complex, and really hurtful to you.


P.P.S. I really enjoyed Star's post today (near the bottom of the page)...perhaps you may as well... an inspirational story from Star

Awed,

Thanks for your post. I really liked the links you gave to the other posts. I really liked Star's story. It reminds me of exctly what I did in the last year, when I thought A#2 was over, and when I had decided to simply get on with life, live the best life I could, take verything off the back-burner, and let H decide if he wanted to join or not. In a way, it was a brilliant plan A, although I thought at the time that he was not having an A...he swore it to me.

In a way...the plan a/b thing working brilliantly in my case. He got a good idea of the good life that he could have with me and the kids, then he left (when I swithched to plan B), and it took 4 whole days for him to "realize" things, and crawl back.

Why am I so pissed now? Now that I got what I supposedly wanted? I struggle with it. It really comes down to the feeling that despite all my efforts, he still chose her, until he got busted...I got lied to again for another year, and find myself back in the same spot as I have been too many times now.

Also, it just plain hurts so much. ouch. I feel I have had to deal with so much rejection from him...I hate him for it. He has brought so much tears and misery to my life for years now...it makes me sick, angry and sad.

Anyways...I read your post and saw that you struggle with anger like mine. I do want to hear whatever you have to say that can help me. Please! I feel like I am drowning in anger and sadness.

Read more of the details of my situation, and you can see that it has been quite the rollercoaster. I cannot emphasize this enough: I cannot have this happen to me again! There is almost nothing left of me! Nothing!!!!!! I want to scream it from the highest buildings! Does everybody hear me?! (Yes I get semi-hysterical at this point!)

What if "left of me" I need for me and my kids and just living. I have no resources left, none. I cannot keep exposing myself to risk.

I liked the post about divorce. Yes I think about it every waking moment. Hard to imagine any positive scenario for me in the short, or medium term. Long term looks good: I will come out of all this one day.

I realize that in one instant I can decide to look at things a different way, feel different, change my outlook. WHat is keeping me in this head space? Am I stubbornly trying to make everyone understand how pissed I am? How sad I am? How scared I am? Is being like this going to prevent this from happening again? duh of course not! I am usually a pretty steady thinker, and I usually have a steady emotional balance going on.

Not now.

Please awed...share any words of wisdom you have. I welcome it.

E

ps: Merry xmas!