Okay so the title is a "Clinton" little misleading but.....

This quote from UNC Cat got me thinking:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But, I seam to think more and more about divorce since Dday. I cant really say why, I just have.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I realized that the thought of divorcing and processing that thought is probably universal for betrayed spouses.

Some give it just a fleeting thought. Maybe because of love, committments, children, financial entanglements or other reason the betrayed spouse never explores this option.

But many more do. I know I did many times during many stages of recovery.

And I note that there is a sense of sadness in the betrayed spouse who looks at the divorce option. A sense that it must be destiny to divorce since they think about often more and more.

But I submit that you shouldn't see the fact that you ponder divorce as a sign that divorce is the path you should follow. It maybe that you do indeed divorce in the end but merely the fact you think about it should not mean you must pursue.

Instead I propose that you treat the thought of divorcing as just another piece in the recovery puzzle. A big piece not bigger than say the "How Could I Have Been So Blind", or "Why Me" or "Can't Stop Obsessing About OP" piece of the puzzle.

And just like the hows and whys of the affair, you will pickup the "divorce" piece. You will turn it up and down round and round. You will look at from many angles. Then like all the other pieces in time you will put it down and move on.

So don't get discourage because you may have persistant thoughts of divorcing. Those thoughts are no different than other destructive thoughts such as harming the OP. And like harming the OP if we recognize that this thought is just part of the process then perhaps you will not act on that thought. Indeed if every BS acted on their thought of revenge against OP our jails would be overflowing.

So think about divorce. Look at your options. But also recognize that considering divorce like considering other areas of the affair is just part of the process.

good post sdfr,

As much as we BS's try not to think about divorce you really do have to examine the posibility of one. Whether it be our doing or the spouses, it does come up. In more than most cases one of the spouses will say that divorce is the best option.

Haven't heard it put that way on hear before but you did talk about exactly what I went through. I didn't tell anyone that I thought about a divorce because that would make it too "real." Basically trying to avoid the thought than to deal with it.

Really good post,

God Bless

d

I geuss what I wanted to stress is many think about suicide...its considered normal for the most part.

Many think about homicide...its normal for the most part.

Few ever really act on those thoughts.

We recognize these thoughts as just thoughts and don't actually do them. Doesn't change the fact we think about these course of actions...or perhaps fantasize would be a better word.

And because we recognize these thoughts are part of the process then we are less distressed about having those thoughts.

None of the books actually spoke about divorce as a thought similar too suicide or homicide. The books did discuss extensively on when or when not to divorce.

The books told the reader he/she was not crazy for having such thoughts. They stressed not acting on them. And reassured the reader it was normal.

In contrast divorce was discussed as a tatical decision not a thought or emotion similar to homicide or suicide. And while the books stressed the life altering decision of divorce early on because of your emotional state none of them attempted to reassure the reader that considering and perhaps even obsessing about divorce was normal. As normal as any other affair related obsession a betrayed spouse would have.

Good post SDFR.

The thoughts of divorce used to be more scary and hard for me to entertain. Now they come up when I think that if we ever have another A to deal with then I want to be able to make that decision to D and believe that I can have a fullfilling life afterward. I want to be strong in resolve.

I'm not sure, but I think making the decision to D would be that if he has yet another A then I will have come to the conclusion that I've been married to a serial adulterer and there is no longer any hope to believe that he will change.

That this time he truly does understand the causes are for him, we have addressed our marital issues, and we have made positive changes. I will believe I gave it my best shot.

I hate the thought of it being self fullfilling prophecy if I dwell too much on his having another A someday. It is almost like a jinx or a superstition. I want to believe that we are truly recovered, all is well, and we won't have to deal with this another time.

Then I question that if there were another A would I need to divorce because I would feel like I'd need to save face. It would be too shameful to stay with such an infidel. You know how some people put down Hilary Clinton for staying with Bill after the all the A's and rumors of A's and even a rape accusation. I had to squirm when I'd hear it when so many were sneering and my H was involved in his second A at the time going back and forth with one false recovery after another.

Then after that nightmare was over and we renewed vows he goes and has a 3rd one with someone else. Sheesh.

I would tell myself: why trade in this H, the father of my kids, for an unknown or someone elses reject who may have a whole lot of other qualities that wouldn't be very nice? Of course that is pessimistic....then you throw me into the mix and who knows?

I'm hoping that if I divorce someday it will be for all the right reasons for me.

But yes, early on a BS should look at those thoughts of D in the context of all those other thoughts you mentioned. I had them all. I may be lucky I'm not on death row right now for a double murder if I had acted on some of my fantasies. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> It was a surreal time. I am so sick of the drama.

We are happy now in the moment. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> That's a good thing.

SDFR:

First, let me say - I'm glad you're not thinking about divorce!!!! The title is misleading!

Second, I want to say, I was thinking about D before I knew of the A. I just daydreamed about what would or wouldn't be realistic if we got a D. For instance, I wouldn't be able to stay in the house, we'd have to sell our van and get 2 cars, etc. I think I knew we were in trouble and just wanted to be prepared.

I'd even gone so far to think of who my D attorney would be.

When DDAY was happening all around us and of course D gets brought up and I said, we should just D and let's get XX to be our attorney and let's save $ by just using one, surely we can do this civilly? My H was floored! He couldn't believe I'd been thinking about getting a D while he'd been having an A!!! Where's the logic there?

DB

When I discovered by H's A, I found myself assessing all the possible scenarios and outcomes for us from this point forward. Separation (not yet divorce) was one of those possibilities. I found I was asking myself "what's the worse that could happen now?" As for the separation scenario, I mapped it out for myself to "see what it would look like" and could I handle it emotionally, financially, etc. And I quickly realized I could. I could easily manage financially (without H's support), I could care for my children, I could care for myself, I could live on my own. I realized I had nothing to fear by separation if that was in fact the only course for us. Once I saw that I could, I now had to answer do I want to and is that the only answer for us now? I didn't and it wasn't. I never think about separation anymore. Admittedly, there are moments when I want to escape the gnawing pain and fleeing seems the answer. But I know the pain will only follow me. Whether together or apart, we each need to process how this A has affected us - individually and as a couple. We've committed ourselves to our relationship, our marriage, our recovery. That feels good a lot of the time.

I wrote a divorce plan in my journal. I made a financial plan, where I would live, how I would move closer to my family for support, how I would work full time instead of part time.... and I kept that plan in my back pocket .... just in case. Doing this helped me, by knowing I had that option if ever I needed it.

Pep

Interesting topic...this actually came up last night, and I didn't handle it well. I told my FWH that I didn't like the lack of attention, neglect and nastiness from him, that I deserved better, that I've entertained the thought of finding someone that could give me this attention, but I would feel guilty if I found someone while we were still married, so we should get a D to clear the way so I could find someone I could be happy with.

I've been thinking of this for awhile, but should have kept it to myself...

<small>[ December 18, 2003, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: StillHereMakingIt ]</small>

sdfr:

I've thought about DV from time 2 time, 2.

Initial thoughts didn't come along until a few months after D-day. I was 2 clingy 2 even entertain fantasies of DV at that point. As I learned more and more about As and my W's in particular, I felt down because I hadn't been loved like I could have been loved during her A and after D-day. I started thinking what life might have been like if she'd just DV'd me at the beginning. I started wondering what life might be like now, if I could only have a fully-committed relationship with SOMEONE (because it didn't look like I could with her).

Then, a few months ago, she really did seem 2 end her R with RM. We started getting really close. But it was only a 2ple of weeks ago that she's really been able 2 empathize with me about how bad even the brief, sporadic email contact HURTS. So, a week or so ago, she offered NC. I haven't "jumped at it" yet, so 2 speak, because I don't believe she understands what it really means, but I do realize that she is finally aware that she could lose me without it.

So, thoughts of DV came on in their greatest strength from about Dec last year through about June this year, subsided for a while and then came back when I heard about contact at the beginning of this month. But they're different now. I don't think I'll get a DV, but if I do, my plan will be 2 be my W's friend so we can be parents and finish rebuilding our house (a good investment) so we can both start fresh in a good financial position in a year or so. But that's just a fantasy. Is it a self-destructive one? I don't think so, though the previous thoughts of DV probably were. I think it's more an acceptance of the range of possible outcomes, with a healthy does of detachment thrown in for good measure. I'm not clingy, but I still love my W. I love her enough 2 not only let her go if that's what she wants, but 2 ENCOURAGE her 2 find what she wants and pursue it, even if I'm not part of that pic2re.

...oh yeah, and there is still a small smidgen of simply being whacked out tired of all this drama! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

best,
-ol' 2long

Interesting to note that many BSs considered divorce pre discovery.

I was strongly contemplating divorce while the affair was ongoing but could come up with no other reason that we were in a passionless marriage and had grown apart. I listened to numerous breakup songs at the time such as Brooks and Dunns "Long Goodbye", Phil Vasser's "Rose Bouquet" and Rascal Flatts "I'm Moving On".

But when I found out I did not consider divorce. I did consider and actually had papers drawn up for a "Legal Notice of Seperate Maintenance" which is legal seperation in the state I lived in.

I wonder how many BSs pondered divorce while an affair was happening unkown to them. It would be interesting to see if there was a spike in BSs considering divorce due to the marital conditions while an unknown affair was going on.

I have oftened wondered if I had indeed filed for divorce or seperation during her affair if it might have ended it sooner.

I thought about divorcing my WS several times before I found out about his affairs. The first time was when he took our two year old son to happy hour with him.

But most of the times I thought about it was during his affairs. He was not attentive, did not initiate SF, was too busy or too tired to spend time with our sons, spent time watching TV in separate room, and never talked except to ask what was for dinner. We were living like roommates. I regret not filing now -- he had another place to go so it shouldn't have caused a problem.

HA! You fooled me too...I thought to myself...WOW, SDFR is thinking of DIVORCE!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> No way??? (I'm thrilled you are not of course...)

But as ol' 2long pointed out (so glad to hear your own updates ya ol' 2long! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> ) divorce may be contemplated anytime along the recovery continuum. By either party but I suspect more often the BS? Perhaps even more especially by the BS if they have not really considered it before -- ie. the reference that Pep made, considering it as part of the "planning" approach to protect your interests (including your SANITY) and those of your family.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I wonder how many BSs pondered divorce while an affair was happening unkown to them . It would be interesting to see if there was a spike in BSs considering divorce due to the marital conditions while an unknown affair was going on.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I not only considered "divorce" (or more accurately, legal separation), I invested lots of time and energy into it. And during the last 6 months of our "old" marriage (pre D-day), I raised the stakes: I said that if he did not go to MC with me, our marriage was over. I gave him a deadline too and stuck to it. It was then and only then -- when the marriage was over in my mind and I'd left our home for an extended period of time (2 months) -- that I was finally able to let go of the immense anger I felt towards him.

And similar to the epiphany that many WS experience: it was only when I was on the absolute final brink of losing my marriage (and at my own instigation, just like a WS!) that I realized I did not want to lose it after all!

Perhaps this is why I feel so much empathy for a WS...NOT for their foggy thinking, or the thinking that got them into an affair in the first place. But because I understand first-hand how someone can throw away the marriage they value deep down because they are lost in the throes of heavy (confusing) emotions and are emotionally withdrawn from their spouse at the time.

But, specifically to your question...unbeknownst to me...through all of this anger, through all of my deep unhappiness, when I kept saying "we NEED to see a MC, I can't get through to you, I don't think I love you anymore, you've changed so much"....it turns out he was having an affair.

Subconsciously I was reacting to the disconnect his guilt was imposing on our relationship. He HAD changed so much&#8230;and almost 2 years later I finally found out the real reason for those changes. Yeah we'd had problems before that but the guilt he felt when he had his first ONS (as he thought it would be at the time) escalated all our marital problems. There was nothing overt, nothing I could lay my finger on...none of the signs of an A that are on any of the lists. No secrets, no lies...just guilt warping his thoughts/feelings/behaviour and me getting fed up because he wouldn't work with me to improve our marriage through better communication.

Finally learning of the A made sense of so much of my life, my feelings, my behaviour, my desperation&#8230;it clarified a reality that had been terrible to live through as I degenerated into hateful behaviour towards him.

Okay: so what if I had gone about things the correct way, the MB way, during that unknowing period -- no LBs, no threat of ending the marriage -- would things have gone any differently? If I had gone to the MC on my own, would THEY have seen affair signals? Could I have implemented a Plan A that would have ended the affair in its infancy, when it was essentially still a couple of isolated instances of ONS with OW?

I explored these issues at great length with my MC. "If only"...those sad sad words of regret.

Her suggestion to me was NO. She believes that we weren't "ready" for this knowledge and things happen for a reason. When you get the whack on the side of the head, you either wake up and change, or carry on despite injuries.

Perhaps you may argue that MB would have helped us? I suspect not. I was not "wrong"...by objective standards my H needed to change. He needed to address his self-destructive tendencies (the affair was only one of these). He had not hit his bottom yet. Even the threat of losing me was not enough to jolt him sufficiently.

But here's the clincher... I was not ready to learn about myself. If I had found out about the affair prior to my epiphany, that would have been it for me. Our marriage would have been done. I KNOW this much.

The coincidence is greatly ironic...what "saved" our marriage was that I let go of my anger prior to discovering the affair. I felt such sweet relief that it was gone, personal freedom. I felt like a nightmare in my life was over. (HA&#8230;and yet a much bigger one was only starting to unfold!!!)

I was finally able to face the anger and realize it was really fear, fear of vulnerability. Fear that I had never realized I felt before...I was angry at my H because he'd let me down.

So when I discovered the affair after I'd made that personal revelation, how could I go back to anger? How could I decide I DIDN&#8217;T want my marriage, right after I'd had this epiphany that I loved my H intensely? After almost a year of thinking I didn't love him anymore? After years of fighting and feeling the love draining away?

I couldn't be that dishonest with myself, I could not unmake that knowledge. So I threw myself heart and soul into showing my H that I loved him. This shocked many others in my life -- it was inconceivable that I was willing to recommit to him despite this horrific revelation. If I was willing to leave him before, how could I discover he was having an affair and not leave him now?

I was determined that the one thing I would make abundantly clear in his mixed up life/head and deep deep fog was that I still loved him. So that he could understand if he chose to do so that he was throwing away UNCONDITIONAL LOVE along with everything else in his life. And most importantly for my own peace of mind, so that I would know that I'd done MY best to save my marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have oftened wondered if I had indeed filed for divorce or seperation during her affair if it might have ended it sooner </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can't speak to your situation...but in mine, the unconditional love spoke to him loud and clear. My final departure -- the "end" of our marriage &#8211; had only thrown him into the arms of OW. He had started telling people about their relationship and exposing it to the world himself.

When I changed tactics completely and showed him love, despite the crap he was dishing out to me in great boatloads at this point, it worked like a charm. He was surprised, he got interested...what was I doing? Why was I doing this? How could I love him despite what he was doing to me, to us?

The unconditional love set up Plan B if necessary...he would have been in no doubt about what he was losing. But the unconditional love also made HIM start to question OW, her motives...how could she really love him and want him to leave me? He knew that he loved me deep down (of course all the while he was telling me coldly he did not love me...sheesh!...the fog <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) and he told OW that he still loved me (but was not &#8220;in love&#8221; with me of course)...so why was she still pushing him to tell me about their relationship and leave me? Why did she want him to do something that he wasn&#8217;t sure he wanted to do? Why?

This is reason that I heavily, strongly, even forcefully advocate a rock solid Plan A with other BS. It worked so incredibly well for me...it was nothing short of unbelievable. I believe in setting the goal of non-LB FOREVER (no excuses), in "letting go" of the WS completely while absolutely giving them unconditional love, and in working intensely on your own mental health environment (emotional detachment, engaging with others, developing new interests, physical activity, etc.) -- ie. to distract you from LBing in intolerable conditions of humiliation and degradation, to give you motivation to continue on in a &#8220;hopeless&#8221; situation, and as a bonus, to help you build a life completely separate from your WS if you cannot reconcile!

My MC called us an inspiration and asked me to write our story down for her. She has a very successful track-record in re-establishing love between couples and saving marriages, and she wants to use our story in her practice as a "textbook" case, a marriage truly on the brink (ie. &#8220;hopeless&#8221;)...so many bad feelings, so many horrible words, no hope left on either side, an affair, a separation...then an end to the self-destruction, enthusiastic recommitment to each other, a whole new set of relationship skills, true love and happiness...a new marriage.

Sorry for the lengthy reply...you just asked the &#8220;wrong&#8221; question <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> -- I felt I needed to share my real-life example for what it is worth but then I seem to have an inability to tell any part of my story without tons of detail...and I bet you can&#8217;t believe that this is the shortened version <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ...awed

<small>[ December 19, 2003, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

awed:

"When you get the whack on the side of the head, you either wake up and change, or carry on despite injuries."

Reminds me of:

"Hickory dickory dock
The Mice ran up the clock.
The clock struck one...
...The others escaped with minor injuries."

You have a very healthy view and understanding of the application of unconditional love to everyday life si2ations. Unconditional love is VERY often so misunders2d or misapplied by people on this forum.

It 2k me a while, and numerous private conversations with people like Spacecase, 2 realize that, when my plan A really 2k hold and started 2 show results about September of last year, it was because I realized that I would love my W unconditionally, whatever she decided 2 do. And it didn't mean I'd tolerate the A or any other mistreatment because of it. That's where ulove is so misunders2d.

I still feel this way. I agree with you, 2, that it's because I was getting good, finally, at plan A (which really 2k several more months, probably until about June this year) or unconditional love, that my W really started 2 "come around" or out of the fog about August.

Still patches of fog remain. Probably for some time yet. Who knows? Nothing 2 do but keep on keeping on. Doing the right thing, so far as I can see what that is! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

-ol' 2long

I went to see a lawyer and started proceedings with th nagging thoughts he might be in a affair but wasnt sure...I just knew the things he was saying and doing were killing me and at one point even thought he wanted it so much it would make him happy...I wont lie I still think of divorce often...Its not someting I want nor do I believe its what he wants...But it does creep in my mind occassionally...And with time it will fade as all of this other is suposse to do also...