I have so much rage inside me right now, I can barely think clearly. Let me just try to get this all out as best I can. I'm telling you in advance that I am rambling and harboring intense rage and fear!

This weekend we discovered that our 12-year old daughter has been cutting herself. Her best friend noticed cuts on our d's arm and questioned her. D explained them as cat scratch's. Friend doubted explanation, pursued it and D confessed to cutting. Friend told her mother and then mother called me Sat. morning. Since then we have been counting our blessings that D has a friend who loves her, who went to her mom with her concerns, and whose mom had the courage to "get involved." H and I spoke to D and she told us she's been doing this for a few days now (so we discovered it early).

Now this child has always talked to us about what's going on with her. She has always articulated exactly what she's feeling, how other's behaviors affect her, and her struggles. When I discovered H's relationship with another woman last December (he denied sexual relationship for next 6 months) and D saw changes in my and H's behavior (lots of crying, lots of private talks) she came right out and asked me if we were getting a divorce (her worst fear). I assured her we were not, but that we had some private, adult matters to work out. I assured her these "matters" were not about her or her siblings. We talked, I reassured her (I guess not sufficiently), and answered her questions without revealing any A information. For the past year, whenever she had questions or concerns about her dad and I, she came to me/us and we talked about them.

Then six months ago I found out my H's relationship with this other woman was actually a long-term sexual affair. I was devastated to say the least. I fell apart, it was much worse than the earlier discovery. Again, D spoke to me about her fears and worries about us. H and I spoke to MC about how best to address the A with our children (two are at home (12 and 9), one in college (20)). Advice was to sit with them and tell them we had a marriage problem, we were working to make it better, we were not getting divorced, and it was NOT about them. We did and they've asked little about it since then.

D told us this weekend that (despite our best efforts to reassure her that our problems were not about the children) she believed our problems were her fault, that our problems were about the kids. I spent the weekend on the internet reading site after site about what's referred to as self-mutilation. I left a message for our MC asking for a referral to a therapist who specializes in this type of teen behavior. I am frantic (my H is not frantic as I am, but he's acutely worried) - she's scheduled to fly out of town to visit a friend for Christmas break and we don't know if we should let her go.

We can see that this is a desperate cry out for help and we are and will do whatever it takes to help her.

As a result of how this A mess has now affected our daughter, the rage has returned with a vengeance. But it's not directed at my H, it's directed as his ex-A partner! Why not my H? He's has taken full responsibility for his A, he is repentent, remorseful. He is dealing with the shame and guilt for his behavior. He is witnessing the pain and devastation of his wife and family because of his behavior. He sees, lives with the consequences and fallout from his A.

His ex-A partner... not so much. Here's where I am just going to let go with how I feel. She's a coward. She's not dealing at all with any fallout from her A. Her H and children don't know. She hasn't seen the devastating affect to others because of her behavior. She's had her own pain, but sh*t, as she should. She decided to have an A, she knew she and my H were married, she knew others would be hurt, but did it anyway! She does not, will not acknowledge the level of her responsibility in her choice to f**k another woman's H. My H told me she's said that "she takes 100% responsbility for her 20% part in the A." What?!?! After all, she says, "he started it." That's something I hear from my 9 year old for crying out loud!!! Yes, he initiated the A originally, and she willing engaged. They spent 3 years together cheating on their spouses and then "broke up" for two years. Then, after two years of no contact, SHE contacts him (for no other reason than to start up again) and the A resumes and last for several years. She never acknowledges this FACT! She's said "if it weren't for my belief in God, they're house would be a smoking hole in the ground". Oh, so her belief in God didn't keep her from cheating on her husband and f**king another woman's husband for years, but hey I guess I should be grateful that her belief in God saved my house!

When the fallout from the A was just affecting me (and my H), I was able to process and manage the anger I felt. I forgave my H and still at this moment feel the forgiveness is genuine. I even thought I had reached a level of forgiveness towards this other woman. But now that one of my children is paying the price, I take it all back! An innocent child has now become a victim and I want her to pay the same price the rest of us are paying. I want her to watch the collapse of her family because of her thoughtless, selfish behavior. I want her to live with the fear, the shame, the guilt as she witnesses the paralyzing pain of her H and family. She still "romanticizes" this A. She's said she will always love him (my H), will always regret that she could never have with him the kind of life she wanted with him, they were so right together, how unfair that two people so good for each other can't be together, how she wants him to contact her if he ever finds himself unmarried... and on and on and on. My H keeps reminding me that she is all about "bitterness and drama" while we are all about "healing and recovery." This does not console me in the least right now.

So why am I back to this rage-filled place again? Why is it ALL directed at her? I am frightened by how I feel right now. I don't blame this other woman for my D cutting herself but I do blame her for the 100% responsibility she owns for her 100% part in this A, and the pain it's causing others, even innocent children. I see her as a hollow excuse of a human being. I want her to look at the cuts on my D's arm and tell me anything about her A with my H was right or good. I am finding no comfort in scripture, but I do keep hearing the lyrics from an old Dylan song - goes something like "you're not worth the blood that runs through your veins." What's happened to me, when, how, why have I become so hate filled...

It was definitely cathartic to get this all out. Thank you for bearing with me. What do I do now? Does anyone have any experience dealing with cutting, advice on how to proceed to help our D, references, or resouces, anything at all? The internet is filled with value information, but I would really welcome any personal experiences or knowledge. Thank you...

How do I deal with the hate and rage I feel? My H keeps telling me that until she has to deal with and face up to the full realm of consequences of her behavior and its affect on others, she will never fully understand and appreciate how wrong the A was, how it was never anything other than wrong, completely, utterly, totally wrong. Why do I even waste the energy to care...

I haven't slept well in two days - I am physically and emotionally drained... I need more coffee and I need some help.

<small>[ December 22, 2003, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: Never Alone ]</small>

Your DD sounds like a very sensitive young soul. You are blessed to have her in your life.

Some people may disagree with me, but here goes:

In my experience with my children and working with other children and adolescents I have learned that children appreciate honesty from adults. They don't need to know ALL the details and much of the truth shouldn't be thrust upon them but it shouldn't be hidden either.

I would suggest a sit down conversation with your D with your H too where she is invited to ask ANY question she wants. Ask her to be specific about which parent she wants the answer from. Each parent should answer HONESTLY but preface each with "This is what I saw" "Or this is how it happened to me". She will probably not want to know all the details, but tell her the basic facts. Ask her if she wants to know more details. Leave it up to her. She is, after all, the Betrayed Daughter. Imagine what your life would be like if you were kept in the dark about the A?

It's interesting that you have said she has been open with her life with you. And yet imagine how she feels not being given the same treatment back.

I know it feels like you are protecting her. But she knows there is this big unknown black cloud out there...she doesn't know how heavy, big, or black it is, so she fears the worst. It's time to put the cloud in perspective.

The truth will help EASE her fears, not CREATE them.

I am SO SORRY to hear your news! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

As for any advice about your D, I wish Icould help, but I have none. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

As for any advice about the OW, all I can think of is to print out this post that you just made, have both you and your husband sign it, and then mail it to her, to let her know how her participation in the A has affected your family.

I don't know, maybe that won't do any good, but it's the best I can come up with. Heck, maybe you should send it to her BH instead of her...nah...that's too spiteful and spite is a toxic emotion.

I am so sorry your at this place...I to have had to deal with the fall out with my children.
Mine didnt cut herself but she did take to many pills and we had a long night in the ER...
I to have a rage deep within because my kids have been hurt so much...The ow was a close family friend and has done countless things this past year. It hurts like heck doesnt it??
My advice, be the person you know you are deep within. Ignore all the little jabs and romantic sayings thoughts ect she may send his way i.e. your way. Its a dream world she is in, a fog, take a deep breathe and pray for her. I know sounds odd but in praying for her you might find some peace.
Your top priority right now is your daughter and your marriage, yes your husband is seeing what htis has done to the family, good for him, he needs to ...He needs to be held accountable for all of htis pain, but he also needs to do all he can to reassure his little girl that daddy will be there for her. Its hard for these men to face that their selfish act can do all this damage but when they are smacked in the face with it , its a real eye opener. The simple fact is your dealing with things or her, the rest is just garbage.
Grow in yourself and your children, this might surprise you and make you all much stronger in the end....Youll be in my prayers...

Never Alone,
I'm sorry for your grief and especially for the impact that the A has had on your daughter. Please see that specialist immediately.

I'm curious about something. Why wasn't the OW's H told of the affair? Harley and most at the MB site would tell you to expose regardless of whether the A was past or present.

You need to tell him. It would have been best if you'd contacted him way back when you found out about the EA or at least when you discovered the PA six months ago. But now you're goung to question your motives. You might talk yourself into not calling him because you'll feel guilty that you are doing it for revenge. (especially now that your D has hurt herself)You need to put that out of your mind. You need to call him because he deserves to know.

You said......."She still "romanticizes" this A. She's said she will always love him (my H), will always regret that she could never have with him the kind of life she wanted with him, they were so right together, how unfair that two people so good for each other can't be together, how she wants him to contact her if he ever finds himself unmarried..." How do you know this? Did she respond to a NC letter with a statement to this effect?

Sometimes BS's don't contact the spouse of the OP because a "deal" is made with the FWS. I made such a deal with my W. I ignored the MB's principles on this one. I was wrong and had a tremendous amount of guilt for not calling the OM's wife. I finally did. She was shocked to say the least but she was so appreciative towards me having the courage to call her. In my case she was a complete stranger to me. Of course her H, the coward, said that I was just being vengeful. Then again he hasn't walked in our shoes has he?

My thoughts are with you, your daughter and your husband.

Take care,

cwmac

I had another thought on the OW. She is still carrying on an EA affair with your H. Although it sounds as though it is unrequited at this point.

However what if in a moment of weakness for whatever reason guilt of your daughter hurting herself or any other, your husband lost control? The door is wide open shall we say. By telling the OW's H the door would more than likely slam shut.

cwmac

NA,

Sorry to hear about your rage and the effect that the affair has had on your daughter. My children suffered too, but nothing like your daughter.

I felt badly because for several months after d-day I really had a tough time coping in general and I know my boys suffered as a result.

If you aren't in counseling I think it would be a good idea. Someone who can help you and your husband deal with the affair & same person help your daughter. I hope you all don't try to make it through this on your own. 12 is such a sensitive age ALL of you could use some coping skills to help with individual recovery in addition to marital recovery.

I too had huge rage with the OW. Some justified, some not. For me it easier to blame her than my H, ever though he was the aggressor too. She had been a friend of his long before I met him; and in my opinion if she was REALLY a friend she would have said NO - and sent him on his way.

Because they were friends for so long she has continued to try to contact him periodically throughout the last 20 months to see if "some magical time frame has passed" and they can resume some sort of friendship.

Well her contact last month was the final straw for me and I sent her a scathing letter. I have to say that it felt good to finally take action with her. I unleashed the full fury of my emotions with her, and strange though it seems to be I have more peace as a result. I think it's because she had made several attempts to contact my H and although he told me about every one of them and he maintained NC - she was left with a little bit of fantasy. Believe me I completely burst her fantasy bubble.

But honestly instead of wasting negativity & rage on the OW, my wish for you is that you spend what energy you have on repairing your family. It's the saying that goes "The best revenge is living well". Blessings, CSue

<small>[ December 22, 2003, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: CSue ]</small>

Never - I cannot offer direct advice about your daughter, other than to agree that you need the advice of a specialist. Please continue to seek it.

What I will offer is direct advice on how to handle the apparent direct cause of your daughter's problem, your marital problems as manifested by your H's affair. There may be some unfinished business that is preventing the complete recovery of your marriage. Until this recovery is totally assured, you cannot remove the root cause of your daughter's problem. I presume your D doesn't know the detail that an affair was what she perceived as the threat to her family - it doesn't matter - she sensed the threat.

What is the state of the affair? You suggest that it is over. How do you know? In that the OW's H and children do not know of it, nothing can be assured. Did your H write a no contact letter? If not, tell us and we'll give you advice on how to do this. A no contact letter can be the final nail in the coffin - or at least help determine if additional nails are needed.

Have you addressed all of YOUR contributions to the poor marital environment that made the affair possible? Has your H addressed his? If not, you haven't addressed the root causes of your daughter's fears. Please turn your justified anger at OW inward to constructive actions to improve your marriage.

So, step 1, have your H read this post. Especially have him read this:

Mr. Never Alone - if you truly care for your children, write a no contact letter to your lover AND her husband immediately. Apologize to her husband for your selfish behavior. Apologize to OW for your selfish behavior. Failure to do this immediately will cause us here to advise your wife to notify OW's husband herself.

Mrs. Never Alone - ask your H to show you his no contact letter before he sends it. Make sure there is NO wiggle room and NO excuses for further contact WHATSOEVER!!! If he hesitates in doing any of this, the affair is not over and your daughter will continue to sense trouble, I bet. DO NOT contact OW for any reason.

Step 2: find and fix all the contributions both of you made to the poor state of your marriage. Consider family counseling in parallel with whatever counseling you find for your daughter.

I was angry at OW until I figured out that it was due to my not being able to handle anger with WH. It doesn't matter who OW was, whether she intiated or not, etc. What matters is your H broke his vows and your D is suffering as a result. Lots of women out there willing to develop a relationship with a married man. It is up to the married man to keep his marriage vows, not to all those women.

My kids seem remarkably well-adjusted considering what they have seen. They know that "Daddy kissed Sophia on the lips." The details are not for them. They also know Daddy broke Mom's arm. I wish they didn't know the detail that it was broken in seven pieces.

When my D was asked to write what the 10 commandments mean in her own words, she wrote "Don't have afairs" for what "Do not commit adultery." and "Be happy with who you married." for "Do not covet thy neighbor's wife."

Anyway, what I am finding is that it is most helpful to give a child "focused attention" as is discussed in the book "The Purpose-Driven Life." They have "choice time." They choose the activity, and I focus attention on them. Right now that same D is working with clay. We will build a gingerbread house this afternoon.

Your problems with H may have taken your attention off your kids. If she is cutting herself, you may well need to find a therapist, but also try focused attention. What does your D like to do with you? Can you spend time alone with her doing what she likes, going out for breakfast, making a gingerbread house, etc?

Kids have emotional needs, too -- the need to be loved, to be cherished, to be considered a joy...

Dear Never Alone,

I'm so sorry about your daughter's cutting. It sounds as though you've caught it at a good time and will get her the help that she needs.

About your anger. I think that you ought to be angry. Try not to judge or justify your anger. Just feel it and listen to it. It's telling you that a boundary has been violated. You knew about all of the boundary violations up until now that the affair revelation brought to light, but you didn't know about this one. That makes you angry and it should. Also, every Mom has a momma bear inside of them that just dares anyone to even think about messing with their child!! Something out of your immediate control has affected your child negatively....that makes your momma bear roar!

I agree that the OW's husband should be told. I would wait until after Christmas of course, but it needs to be done. She didn't just have a little fling...she had an ongoing affair for years and he deserves to know. That is probably what you are angry about...that she is getting away with it. You are angry that she swears an undying love for your H. Well, then maybe she should have to pay for that undying love and then we'll see how undying it really is. I'll bet that it will die out pretty quickly when she is faced with possibly losing her family over it. She needs to focus on her marriage and telling him will definitely get her focus on her marriage...for better or worse! Break the fantasy bubble.

Don't question that fact that you are angry. Tell yourself something like, "Of course I'm angry...who wouldn't be?"

No matter how repentant your H is, he still did this to your family. This is the fallout from his behavior. Many people are paying the price for his infidelity, including you and your children. Telling him that might help. Tell him that you love him, want him, need him, but that you are also angry that you are in this situation.

I did this with my H awhile back. I was being kind of irritable with him and I wasn't sure why. I thought about it and realized that I was angry with him about having to go through all of this mess during the holidays. I told him that I loved him so much and that I was so thankful that we are together. Then I said, but I'm also angry that you put us in this situation. He said that he didn't blame me a bit. Being honest with my feelngs in a very simple and straight forward way allowed us to move on without me feeling irritable. It really helped.

Hope you are doing better soon. Take care!

Stillwed

Worthatry wrote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Have you addressed all of YOUR contributions to the poor marital environment that made the affair possible? Has your H addressed his? If not, you haven't addressed the root causes of your daughter's fears. Please turn your justified anger at OW inward to constructive actions to improve your marriage.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is always a chance that the marriage was just fine and I wanted to point that out. My H, in particular, believes that his affairs had very little to do with me, if anything. His affairs had to do with his deep, unresolved childhood wounds. The marriage was actually as healthy as it could have been without him dealing with those wounds. I don't know if Never Alone's situation was the same or not.

Stillwed

I am so relieved for all your responses. I am overwhelmed by this latest situation and need to do something, anything at this point, to help our daughter and calm myself down. I have been on the phone and left a few messages in attempts to find a therapist who specializes with teens. I am meeting with my pastor for help in dealing with the anger (no, rage) I feel right now towards this other person. We are just a few days from celebrating the birth of our Savior, and I am so frightened and distressed by my feelings - I need some spiritual guidance with this. My thoughts are so uncharitable right now.

Your responses have also helped calm me.

StillHere: thank you for being the first to respond. Your very suggestion of a sit-down occurred to me as well, especially since our oldest is now home from college. My instincts tell me this is a good idea. I am so highly emotional right now, I'm questioning my instincts tho. You also said

"It's interesting that you have said she has been open with her life with you. And yet imagine how she feels not being given the same treatment back.

I know it feels like you are protecting her. But she knows there is this big unknown black cloud out there...she doesn't know how heavy, big, or black it is, so she fears the worst. It's time to put the cloud in perspective.

The truth will help EASE her fears, not CREATE them."

I believe you are absolutely right. I can easily imagine how she feels about being kept in the dark, about not receiving open communciation in return. You are also right that we thought we were protecting her, were protecting all three of our children. I see now our wrongdoing. She is afraid, she doesn't understand, and she imagines reasons other than what's really the cause. I am all to familiar with these same thoughts following both ddays. I am trying to get an appointment with a therapist who will see us with our daughter and guide us through this. And help with how to communicate with our other children about what's happening with their sister, and with their dad and I. The truth will ease her fears. It's always eased mine. Thank you so much.

Uncomfortably Numb: I don't know what to do about these feelings towards this other person. Yes, toxic emotions, I don't want them to get the better of me, especially now when my D needs us.

HurtMore: I hope your daughter and your family is doing well. Yes, it sounds like you do understand where I am right now. When someone (directly or directly) brings or causes harm to my children, well I am no longer responsible for my actions. Yet, now more than ever, I need to be responsible. I was handling, coping with, processing the affects on me of my H's affair. I have felt every emotion mentioned in every book about the reactions a spouse has to the discovery of infidelity. With MC and IC we have been "fighting the good fight" for our marriage and our selves. Despite my H's long-term affair, he's a good man, a good father, and is committed to being a better man, father, and husband. Just when we both thought the pain of his betrayal could get no worse, it does. I am struggling with overwhelming guilt right now, feeling responsible and selfish in not seeing how she was affected. I am praying... thank you.

cwmac: How do I know about all those statements she's made? Some from email during the A, some from my H, and some from other writings of her's. There has been no contact between her and my H since my discovery. Actually, that's not true. I met with her soon after I discovered that the relationship was a long-term sexual affair (about 6 mos. ago). At that meeting she assured me she had no interest or intention of ever contacting my H again. The very next day she called him at our home! There has been no contact since that phone call.

As to why I haven't informed her H. Well, back to that meeting I had with her. I told her when I asked her to meet with me that I had no interest or intention in telling her H about her A and that I felt she was the one who should do that. Her marriage, the state of her marriage, whether or not she even still had a marriage was not of any concern to me. I told her I would not, so I have not. This was a huge issue for me in the weeks and months following discovery of the truth and meeting with her. I felt her H had a right to know, I would have wanted him to tell me if he knew - hell I would have wanted ANYONE who knew to tell me. Yet I didn't inform him. Here's my reason, plain and simple. On both dday's I was stunned, shocked, numb, devastated. I went through all those crappy emotions, including all the self-doubt, insecurities, lack of self worth and value. I was desperate to maintain some sense of my own personal integrity throughout all these wild swings and moods. And it was overwhelming, and nearly impossible, at times. You know all this, know what I'm talking about. I told her I would not contact her H. I needed, for my own sense of personal integrity, to keep my word and I have. I would not ALLOW the A, her, or my own H to cause me to compromise my personal self. It wasn't about feeling noble, being "better", or taking the moral high ground. It was simply about being true to myself and not allowing any of this to compromise who I am, what I'm about, what I value in myself. I believe our principles and values really mean something when they're challenged. Mine were challenged and I was now challenged to "walk the walk" so-to-speak. Now it just seems stupid and "what was the point?" At this particular moment, I feel like a sap, I owe her nothing, f**k integrity, principles and values. My kid hurts, the "gloves are off" and I'm ready to swing.

Just got off the phone with our MC. If we can't get an appointment with a "specialist", we do have an appointment with our MC tomorrow. We need someone to help us decide if we should let her leave for two weeks or stay home. He can help us get that far until we can locate and schedule an appointment with another therapist. He advised me that we should take this very seriously and I assured him WE ARE. I am so scared. Thank you all for your responses. I don't know what I would have done today without some venting and feedback. Thank you. God bless...nev

You're DD is clinical depressed. It may have to do with what is going on with you and her father...it may not. Her latching onto your problems may also be an excuse and denial of facing whatever is really bothering her. Teenage years are stressful.

You're best bet is to get her into treatment as soon as possible. Considering the time of year, it's unlikely that you'll get much done until after the new year.

The GOOD thing is that you caught this early. (HOPEFULLY) Don't depend too much on your DD being honest about this in the beginning...it's something that is carefully hidden by one who abuses themselves. And usually is NOT caught early. Since her good friend caught her and was mature enough to realize that this was not a secret to keep...you may well have lucked out in catching it early.

I have been guilty of this action. It is something that you hide, deny, and seek to keep even from yourself. It is an unhealthy way of dealing with inner pain.

As for the planned trip your DD is scheduled to take...who is she going to be with? Is this someone you can trust to watch and be aware of the dangers? If this is someone that you can share your DD's problem with...she should NOT go under any circumistances if you can NOT tell whoever she is going to visit.

While I am sure you want to protect your DD's privacy...this is not something that should be kept secret. By doing so...it only allows the sufferer to continue to deceive themselves.

As for your anger...normal. This is a landmind that has blown up and may have harmed one of your children. YET...your H's affair and your crisis in your marriage may have nothing to do with what is happening.

Focus on your DD...find out the cause and do what is necessary to help her. If it is the stress of worrying about her family then reassurance is your best goal. If it is some other reason or even a combination of many issues...discover this and addressed what needs to be addressed.

Focusing on the xOW will get you NOWHERE! This is NOT the time. JMHO She is NOTHING...she has no importance...she is ashes in a cold, dead past. Leave her there!

Oh my goodness...more responses. Thank you. I find myself crying uncontrollably as I read what you each write. You have each taken the time and effort to reach out and I want to respond in return. I'll do my best...

CSue: We are in counseling, both IC and MC for H and I, have been since shortly after first dday (last Dec). We have learned good coping skills, they are escaping me now. I can't seem to get my thoughts on straight. The three of us see our MC tomorrow. Still seeking a therapist who specializes in these types of teen issues. Our MC can at least help us determine whether she should leave for an out-of-town trip (for 2 weeks) or not. As to anger, oh yea had lots of it directed at my H. I am surprised that I don't feel anger towards him now, what with this. One reason, or at least part of the reason, may be because he accepts, acknowledges and takes full responsibility for his A. He blames no one but himself. He is also living with, witnessing, and dealing with the full range of consequences for his decision to have an A. And it's not just the affect his A has had on me (and now our D), but the affect it's had on him. I've said on other posts that he fights his own, and many, demons because of his A. He IS being a man about it. My wish is also your wish - that I get my focus back to what matters. Thank you.

Worthatry: thank you also for your response. As to marital recovery - we are most certainly not there yet. First dday was Dec 02 when I learned of his "inappropriate, secretive, flirtatious (but not sexual) relationship". Six months later he reveals the truth - a long-term sexual affair. So, in my mind, true recovery didn't begin until the truth was known. It's been both the longest and shortest six months of my life. Both MC and IC have been invaluable. There has been extreme personal and marital growth for us. Clearly our D has "perceived the threat" although she doesn't know it was an A. Both MC and IC are helping both of us determine the reason(s)/cause for my H's A. My H insists (and I mean insists), it was not me or the state of our marriage. It was him, it was all about him. He never wanted to leave me and end the marriage, he always loved me. In the beginning I almost wanted it to be about me, something I could "fix". We are making progress, and have learned that every marriage has room for improvement, and every individual has room for self study and personal growth.

As to the state of the A. It IS over. See my earlier post about last contact. No, there has not been a NC letter. When ex-A partner called him six months ago, he made it clear he was committed to the recovery of his marriage and wanted no further contact with her. There have been no further contact. If he should ever hear from her again... well I can assure him and you all that I won't be held accountable for my actions. I worry about a lot of things, that is not one of them. It's beyond my control at this point, my H has been honest about the details of the A (much of which has been confirmed by ex-A partner), so our focus has been personal and marital recovery, and now the recovery of our D. Turning my anger into constructive actions to help our D and continue to help our marriage is exactly where I need to refocus. I believe our D's fear and acting out on that fear results from her confusion about what's happening with her dad and I. She's seen us as we've reacted to my discovery of his A, she's felt the emotional turmoil, seen us having private conversations, heard conversations stop when she entered within hearing range (if we were not behind closed doors), has seen the changes in our behavior as we work on the recovery of our marriage. The A is over, I'm as certain as one can be about such things. I don't feel naive in this regard (and I know naive, believe me). Thank you for your candor and advice. I am grateful for both right now.

Broken heart and arm: I have been following you and your progress for quite some time. Your strength and courage awes me. You mentioned "focused attention" on our children. Well, I am feeling extremely guilty and responsible. I feel selfish for not seeing what was happening with my D. Have I been so consumed with my hurt that I lost sight of my kids. She came to me with questions and concerns she had about her dad and I. I thought we were aware, on top of it all. I see now I wasn't, we weren't, and I feel like... oh h*ll, I feel guilty, selfish and responsible! But I've gotta snap outta this and regain some focus. You are all helping me do that. You reminded me "kids have emotional needs, too -- the need to be loved, to be cherished, to be considered a joy..." - truer words were never said.

Stillwed: I don't think I could talk myself out of this anger now if I tried. I AM angry and I am saying it and feeling it. I do want her to pay the same price we've paid. If she can say "he started it", then I can say "not fair." You said "Well, then maybe she should have to pay for that undying love and then we'll see how undying it really is. I'll bet that it will die out pretty quickly when she is faced with possibly losing her family over it." My H has said the same thing to me many times, and he thinks she somehow enjoys the drama and the tragedy of what "couldn't be." He's disgusted with her quite frankly. This situation with our D now only further disgusts and upsets him - he knows he's responsible for all this. He has his own personal suffering for the loss of his integrity and breakdown of his "self" as a result of his A, as well as the added pain of the suffering of those he loves. I do love him, I tell him often, and he tells me he believes me else why would I stay and suffer this agony with him. I also know it would be too easy for him to just run from the guilt and shame he feels, but he's here rebuilding a relationship and marriage he wants with the woman he wants to grow old with. We have never come even close (in nearly 26 yrs) to dealing with a crisis of the magnitude of this A and its fallout. I pray for God's continued guidance as we help our D.

JazzeyGirl - I think you might be right in she's trying to even out the pain. She does feel she's the cause of what's been happening, she's told us that. I spoke with our MC earlier and he said this does not sound like "attention getting" behavior. He told me we need to take this very seriously - believe me, we are! She's told us she likes how it feels, almost a relief. Info from the web talks about kids substituting physical pain to cover up emotional pain they can't deal with. Fits with what she's told us. I am so grateful to her friend and her friend's mom for caring enough, loving her enough to get involved. Thank you for your story as it offers that much more insight into what might be going on in head right now.

You guys... I just don't know what to say other than thank you. It doesn't seem like enough, but it's all I've got...nev

I knew about my H's EA but did not call OW's H at my H's request. Had I called, the story may have been different. The PA began 9/11/01, I e-mailed Harley's radio show on 9/25/01 and he told me to call OW's H, I told my H and he got all upset and invoked the POJA so that I didn't, I called the radio show on 4/22/02, he told me to call OW's H, this time I did, and OW's H got the truth out of OW. You and your D are more protected if OW's H knows.

I don't know if I can ever get over this A. I am at the end of the road. Since he broke my arm, I have gained more than 30 pounds. I don't even mind. It's like my body is telling me I cannot handle this situation and need to change it. BUT the one bright light in my life is those kids. I am keeping a log of enjoyable memories with them. It helps me to gain some perspective.

It helped me to schedule in time that is totally focused on them and not combined with day to day activities. Focus.

Wifey: thank you too for your response. Our MC also mentioned that our D might be dealing with depression. We will meet with him tomorrow. I can and will definitely tell the parents of the friend my D is visiting about the latest situation. The mom is one of my dearest friends from our previous state of residence. I would talk to her anyway about all this (she is one of two friends who know about the A). I'm seeing the harm in keeping the A secret, I won't make that same mistake again. We also realize that her cutting may not be about our marital problems. She has always been so direct and candid about her feelings that we have reason to believe she is being honest about her feelings and why the cutting. No stone is being left unturned at this point. Thank you for reminding me of other possibilities. In my head I know you are right when you say "Focusing on the xOW will get you NOWHERE! This is NOT the time. JMHO She is NOTHING...she has no importance...she is ashes in a cold, dead past. Leave her there!" My heart is so out of step with my head right now. However, I am much calmer than I was this weekend and earlier this morning. I've taken some proactive steps and am feeling less emotionally distraught. Thank you for your response and advice.

Over the past year I've read how the people here have jumped to the rescue of those in need. I am beyond grateful for the saving words from everyone. You are in my prayers too. Thank you...nev

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This weekend we discovered that our 12-year old daughter has been cutting herself. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I cut myself for a while when I was 15. My Dad tried to kiss one of my friends (she was 18). I was told about it and we were never allowed to bring it up again. (Mom didn't want to humiliate my Dad anymore than he already was.) I spent the rest of the school year being heckled as I walked down the hallways. It was very painful and I had no one to talk to. I hated my life and I hated myself. I DID NOT want to kill myself. I just didn't know what to do with the pain. If anyone noticed they never said anything. I even carved my initials in my arm. The scars faded with time. I was very clean, clean blade, peroxide, and maybe a band-aid.

I eventually stopped and I never thought about it again, until my husband cheated on me. I have only done it a few times in the last year, usually after a huge fight, with him being so angry with me that I can't deal with the pain.

That said, you daughter is probably in a lot of pain. Husbands don't just cheat on their wives, they cheat on their families. They shake the foundation of everyone's life. Your daughter might feel like her life is falling apart and she has no power to change it. That can be very scary for a child. It is scary for us, isn't it?

There are websites about self-mutilation. It is about self-hatred, NOT SUICIDE. People don't understand that. They understand drinking, using drugs, fighting and even murder but they just don't get this.

I don't get drunk, I don't use drugs, I am not violent, I do not intentionally hurt anyone. I am not mentally ill and I choose not to use anti-depressants. I show up for work everyday, and smile at everyone and other than my husband and one friend at work--no one knows.

Try to give your daughter emotional support. She knows what is going on. You can not have a trauma like an affair happen and hide it from the rest of the family. Kids are very intuitive.

My 8 year-old daughter probably made the most sense out of all of the problems, my husband and I had. She simplely stated "Daddy loves you on the inside but not on the outside." That was the base of our problems, he had been unable to show his feelings for me, that was the whole issue that led to the downward spiral of our relationship and she summed it up in one sentence. As far as I know, she does not know about the affair, we have never discussed it with her

I'm sorry you are going through this. The OW in my case was a dear friend who I have known for over 20 years, I was there when her daughter now 18 was born and I love her like a neice. You can imagine my pain when I found out she had begun cutting herself in response to the same situation. Unfortunetly her mother is reliving her teenage years and enjoys having a "friend" to hang out with. She has done nothing about it. Her father researched everything he could and found out its a way for the girls to relieve some of their pain. Also unfortunetly when he pushed for therapy OW rebelled and now 18 year old will not even speak to her father. I worry so much about her and wish I could help.
I think you are doing WONDERFULLY, no one can tell you why except her and counseling is the best thing. Your being a great mom so don't knock yourself.
I too have a huge rage against OW and am angrier at her then at WS. I believe like you that WS is trying although we are not as far as you in that WS still feels like OW is the cats meow but that he will learn to love me again, hopefully.
Anyway you are not alone and us mothers are praying for your daughter.
km4

You were on my mind alot last night..just wantting to check in and see how your doing???