Boobs (couldn't resist, this nickname for your screen name was just to tempting) - late last night I saw your response in Recovery and was just too drained to respond. Glad you moved over here. Scary doesn't even begin to describe this whole flippin' mess. Yes, our D is scared, she doesn't understand what's happening and that scares her. Over the weekend I did a google search of "teen self-mutilation" and got 18,700 hits. This is a serious problem! I am praying that we "caught" this in time. What I couldn't find info about was how, if this behavior escalates. My H, our D, and I meet with our MC this afternoon. We talked to our D about this last night. She cried and said she doesn't want to meet with him. We talked about her upcoming out-of-state trip for two weeks and how uncertain we are about letting her go. She keeps promising us she will NEVER do this again. She even wrote us a note on Sat. night (we found out about her behavior and talked to her on Sat. morning) and left it on the pillows of our bed. In the note she told how us how sorry she is for cutting herself and she wrote "I'm going to stop. I CAN stop." I believe that she believes she can stop. We're just not willing to take that risk. Counselling will be happening. Another poster mentioned that her problems may not be our marital problems. And we do agree. We also believe that whatever other problems she may be having, our marital problems compounded her pain and pushed her over the edge. You are so accurate in that "husbands [or wives] don't just cheat on their wives [or husbands], they cheat on their entire families." and that you can't hide a trauma like an affair from the family. We are living both those painful truths.

Now about you... how are you doing? You and another poster or two exemplify how this behavior can and does become an ongoing method for dealing with pain. Where does your pain stand today? How do you cope? You are in my prayers...nev

KM - I can imagine your anguish as see you watch a young woman harm herself and receive no help whatsoever. What in the world will it take for her mom to understand her D's in pain and needs, is screaming out for, help. The casualties left in the wake of A's - this madness has got to stop.

I've always felt like a good mom, until this. I know I'm beating myself up over this, and I know that I will feel better as we learn more about our D's pain/problems/worries, etc. I just feel so guilty (even tho I know it serves no useful purpose) for being so consumed with my own hurt that I didn't notice D was hurting too. What was I thinking, how did I let that happen!?! I will become over-vigilant for quite some time I imagine. Thanks for your response and your prayers.

Hurtmore: Today I am definitely calmer and thinking more rationally. I see my pastor this morning (about my rage) and we see our MC with our daughter following that. We are prepared to follow the advice of our MC regarding D's upcoming two-week trip. Thanks for your thoughts and prayers.

...nev

<small>[ December 23, 2003, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: Never Alone ]</small>

Its a long road to follow but I believe you can do this by the strength in your tone...
By facing it head on and dealing with it you are showing her what a truely strong woman handles things...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've always felt like a good mom, until this. I know I'm beating myself up over this </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you want to know the truth, this probably has nothing to do with your parenting skills. I am sure you are a teriffic mom. My Mom is very sweet, she was just trying to protect my Dad from shame and humiliation.

I think it is a lack of a coping mechanism. When you combine that with self-esteem issues, you can have a problem. Does your daughter feel beautiful, smart, popular and all the other things important to girls her age? Does she always want to be the best? How does she deal with failure and rejection? It could be she feels she's not up to the standards, she expects of herself. I am sure the A, didn't help but there are deeper issues about her "self." Does this make sense?

When I was a teenager, I wanted a social life, friends to hang out with, things to do, boys to chase, all the normal things. But, we lived 30 miles from town and miles from friends. My Dad worked 2 jobs so we never did anything fun. I hated my life. What my Dad did just destroyed what little I did have. Imagine walking down the hallways, past boys your age, only to have them yell out "There's the rapist daughter." I couldn't talk about it at home, and I had no outlet. So I turned my anger and hurt inside--on myself.

26 years later, the only man I ever believed in and trusted betrayed me. My Mom is 94 and I really had no where to turn. I couldn't act out of anger or hurt, so I did what I knew--I turned on myself. I was the one who was not good enough, the one so easily replaced, the one not worth the effort. Again, I hated myself. My husband is a great guy, so if he didn't want me it was because of my defect.

My husband has changed, but I still have the fear of rejection and the feeling of unworthiness inside me. I am healing. I doubt I have many more episodes on the horizen. I know that I can not go through this pain again, but I will have to let him go in my heart next time. I have 2 daughters to teach. I have to make sure they have healthy self-esteem and will be strong.

When you read the websites on self-mutilation remember that they usually post the worst. It is much more interesting.

I would be careful that she is not misdiagnosed as having a mental disorder. Like I said, I am sure this is more of a coping mechanism. I can tell you that I am not a mental case. I am described as out-going, friendly, reliable, easy-going and level headed. I am much more put together mentally than many people I know. I just have a problem when someone crumbles the foundation of my life, trust and faith. But isn't that why we are all here. Some drink, some use drugs, some use violence, some scheme, some lose faith, others find it.

Cathy

never,

I went through a very tough time with my daughter, who while she did not cut herself, was hell bent on self destruction....in fact, she almost succeeded. I am a very good mother, but even good mothers cannot always succeed in keeping these young women from feeling as though their lives are beyond their control. It's hard to believe when we look at them, that they could have enough pain in their young lives to "anesthesize" themselves in this terrible ways....but they do.

It seems more prevalent in high achieving girls and girls who have body issues. I used to look at my child....with her exceptional beauty, talent and intellect and wonder "HOW" can she so unhappy? But the truth is that the world is asking these girls to grow up very quickly....before they are emotionally prepared to deal with the complexities of modern life. Outside stresses....for us it was constant moving and marital problems....exacerbates the situation and those girls who are suseptible often make some horrifying choices.

As I said, my daughter did not cut (but believe me when I say her behavior was equally and horribly destructive)....but I have been close to several girls did cut. For a while, I housed one of my friend's girls and she was a cutter. She and her mother were so at odds with each other, that she lived with me for three months while she began therapy. If you remember earlier....I used the word "anesthesize"....which seems odd because they are "cutting" and you would think that causing pain would not do that. But it does. At first, when they cut....it helps them feel alive...the pain reminds them that they are "there". One girl told me that physical pain is better than the emotional pain and anguish she was feeling...she was trading something she could control, for something she couldn't. Then, supposedly there is a release of some sort....that works like an analgesic to calm them down. That feeling is the one that is the most tempting to recreate and helps instill the habit.

It's about control....even if it's only controlling pain. If her life seems out of control....and yes probably the stress surrounding your marriage adds to that fear...this is a way to control what little is within her power.

The most incredible and wonderful thing for you....is that apparently you discovered this early...before it has become habitual! That is a blessing you cannot imagine, since early intervention has the best chance for succeeding. When you choose a counselor...PLEASE be sure it is one who has experience with self mutilation and teenage girls.

The good news is that treatment has good results and there is every reason to believe that your daughter will stop this behavior. Yes take it seriously....but don't fall into despair because your daughter will almost certainly respond to therapy. All of the young ladies I knew have all stopped cutting....or doing the other forms of self mutilation that they practiced. (One beautiful girl...my daughter's best friend...used to pull out all her eyebrows and eyelashes).

My daughter, along with the others, are all around twenty now. They are wonderful and well adjusted and have grown out of the madness and mayhem. If you met any one of them you would never think they had worried their parents the way they did. The behavior of my own child actually put her life at risk....and I used to say "if I can just keep her alive long enough to get past being a teenager....I know she will be fine." She more than fine....she is exceptional and very happy. But it did take a while for her to emerge from this dark period of her life, and it was a challenge as a mother to help stabilize her life, help her build productive coping mechanisms, and help her learn positive way of getting attention.

I felt like a failure as a mother....but I had more than one psychologist tell me "star, the best thing that this child has going for her is that you are her mother." I suspect the same is true for your litte girl!

Blessings to you and your daughter! You are in my prayers.

I may be completely off base here, but in my very LIMITED experience the teens that have turned to hurting themselves seem to be very non-confrontational. It's almost as if their sadness, loneliness, despair, and anger get turned towards themselves than to express it outwardly.

The pain gets to be too much, and without an outlet they hurt themselves because for a short time the physical pain helps them forget about the emotional pain.

What can help is having someone to talk about this pain with...parents, counselors, a trusted adult friend. Often times adolescents turn towards their friends to talk with, and their friends often are not able to help or listen without giving advice.

Give a gift to someone today of REALLY listening to a problem they have and not offering an answer or an example of when you had a similar problem. Help them find an answer by asking questions of how they've tried to fix it. Often a person knows what needs to be done to solve a problem...but they are worried about the consequence of their "fix". Help a person today put a problem in perspective. When a person speaks their problem out loud it makes the problem seem manageable. A problem gets too big when it stays in our imagination...

Good luck & prayers for your D & your family. And God Bless her friend & her friend's Mom too many people today will not get involoved.

Hoping you find a counselor that can help your daughter. Cutting is a cry for help.

I understand about being angry with OW & not your H. I always understand why my then H started an A. I still do, I forgave him for that right away. Now forgiving some of things that happened after was a little harder. Like you all of my anger was directed at OW, it was only this last May that I finally got angry at my one of these days to be X.

I believe that you have to deal with the anger to heal yourself, if you are still married you really need to deal with the anger and if like me you are on the path to divorce the anger again needs to be dealt with in order to move forward. It has only been after I finally admitted my anger and understand it that I could move forward toward the final legal steps to end my marriage.

My OS has been deeply affected by his father's A. He found out by the A in the worst possilbe way & in the yrs since has made one bad decesion after another. He is not a bad kid, and really hasn't done anything most teenagers don't do; however I would have been nice to have known the young man he was on the road to becoming before his father's A. He will never be that person and a part of me will always grieve for him.

May you find peace in the coming year. Peace is under rated.

Big sigh.... H, D, and I met with MC yesterday. Was a good session for all four of us. He asked her how she felt about what she'd done. She said she was sorry - sorry that she had hurt herself and sorry that she had caused us such worry. He also asked her about her worries, what led her to this behavior. Again, she spoke about believing that our marital problems were somehow about her or "the kids". He asked and we talked about a lot more. Does she have emotion problems, yes. Mental problems, no. I don't believe our marital problems are her only worry. However, I think it's a BIG worry for her and it's been the final straw for her and she acted out. She's very confused and deserves whatever details are necessary to ease her fears. She'll get them. In the final analysis, MC recommended that we let her proceed with her trip. My friend (mom of friend D is visiting and staying with) knows what's happened and will keep an eye out. MC asked D to promise to call us if she had any problems while away and call if she wanted to come home earlier than planned. We are also having her sign a "contract" on agreed upon behavior while gone (also MC recommendation). While she's gone, we will continue our search for a therapist/psychiatrist who specializes in working with teens who act out in this way. We need someone who can help determine if depression is a contributing factor. Lots to do and we are geared up for it ALL. While I do feel some relief, I am still operating on high alert (would that be "orange"?)

Hurtmore: Yes, it will be a long road. And, I am a strong woman, my H is a strong man, and our D is a strong young woman who knows we treasure her. She'll get the help she needs to uncover her problems and learn new "coping" skills. Thank you for your concern and responses.

Boobs: as to deeper issues about her "self", yes you make perfect sense and I understand completely. That's why therapy is necessary for her. We need to help her uncover all her issues and learn new coping skills. If we have, in fact, caught this early before it's become patterned behavior for her, she has every chance of not repeating this as her way of coping.

You also said the following that struck a cord with me: "26 years later, the only man I ever believed in and trusted betrayed me." This has been true for me also. It's a topic for another discussion, one I would like to have. Are you up to it?

Star: You talk about "outside stresses". Yea, we've had those too. Our D, at just a mere 12 years of age, is living in her third state. The latest move (2.5 years ago) was difficult for her. She was much older than during previous move, and was leaving a school and friends she loved. By most outward appearances she seemed to have adapted well, now we see perhaps not... She did have some problems when we first moved - making new friends, getting settled in a new school that had started a few weeks before she got there, etc. But, she came to us and talked about how she was feeling (she has never had a problem describing how she feels!). When she wanted a listening ear, we gave her that. When she wanted our advice or wanted us involved, she got that too.

While our D did not use these words: "At first, when they cut....it helps them feel alive...the pain reminds them that they are "there". One girl told me that physical pain is better than the emotional pain and anguish she was feeling...she was trading something she could control, for something she couldn't. Then, supposedly there is a release of some sort....that works like an analgesic to calm them down." This is exactly what she was telling us. Therapy will help her build productive coping skills. The story of your D and other young woman you've known adds to our feelings of great hope. Thank you so much.

StillHere: "Give a gift to someone today of REALLY listening to a problem they have and not offering an answer or an example of when you had a similar problem. Help them find an answer by asking questions of how they've tried to fix it. Often a person knows what needs to be done to solve a problem...but they are worried about the consequence of their "fix". Help a person today put a problem in perspective. When a person speaks their problem out loud it makes the problem seem manageable. A problem gets too big when it stays in our imagination..." Yes, Yes, Yes! Today and everyday.

Sing: Hmmm, anger... well, I am calmer every minute. My anger has never been directed at JUST the ex-A partner. HUGE amounts of it were directed at my H. I have never felt less anger at him than xAP. I have never viewed him as less or more responsible for the A than xAP - after all it wasn't just his A, it was their A. I have processed my anger at him. He admits and takes full responsibility for it all. He is remorseful and repentent for what he's done and how it's affected all of us - him, me, our family. He is also confronting and dealing with the consequences, ALL of them, EVERY ONE of them. Not so for xAP. And when we discovered what our D had done to herself and her reasons for doing it, newfound rage surfaced towards xAP. We were all paying the price, she should too! Well, now that rage has eased considerably. I am feeling and thinking alot more rationally of late. I have always understood that her and her life is of no concern for me. What she learns from this (or not) is not for me to care. Whether she is ever honest with herself and her H, and her family about what's she done to herself and them, also not for me to care. Whether or not she ever gives a rip about her contribution to other's pain, again it's just not for me to care. I've struggled desperately to hang on to even a shred of my self-respect, dignity, integrity, values, and principles despite the temptation to do otherwise. It's letting emotions overrun those values one holds dear that leads people into A's. I will not be led down an equally destructive path. I am back on track again. But, I gotta say, man oh man, did it ever feel good to let go with the vent about all the rage.

My H and I are not on the path to divorce. We are together, rediscovering and recovering our selves and our marriage. It feels good and it feels right. It didn't need to be this horrifically painful impetus to jump start this process - but it's the hand we've been dealt. I continue to pray for healing for EVERYONE affected by infidelity.

Wishing you all a joyous, wondrous Christmas season...nev and family

Nev,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You also said the following that struck a cord with me: "26 years later, the only man I ever believed in and trusted betrayed me." This has been true for me also. It's a topic for another discussion, one I would like to have. Are you up to it?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He's has taken full responsibility for his A, he is repentent, remorseful. He is dealing with the shame and guilt for his behavior. He is witnessing the pain and devastation of his wife and family because of his behavior. He sees, lives with the consequences and fallout from his A.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If H really thought I did not love him then I wonder sometimes if it isn't the pain that I have gone through the last year that has helped my husband. I have asked him what he has lost. He got to choose OW or me. He had 2 women that loved him, he still had his kids' love. What did he really lose? How has this been painful to him? He says now he sees doubt in my eyes. Maybe what he has gained is the knowlege that he is loved.

We can move this to another thread. So, not to take away from your daughter.

One the subject of your daughter, I am sure she is going to be fine. I am glad you let her go on her trip. She might have felt punished if you didn't, this way she feels she has your trust. Something that will help her, your belief in her. I have a few years to go before we get to 12. I am not looking forward to it at all. My 8-year old is already acting like I did when I was 12. I can't imagine what is going to happen when she starts PMSing. My poor husband, he already jumps thru hoops for this child. I can't imagine what it will be like when she really learns how to manipulate him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Boobyprize: D is safely settled in with friend and friend's family. We have spoken with her twice, she sounds very happy to be there with her friend. You're right, we didn't want her to feel punished, so we're glad that MC recommended letting her proceed with this trip. Also, our oldest D, her boyfriend, and her college roommate on are their way to same state where youngest D is visiting. They are on a "road trip" driving nearly 1600 miles each way (what were we thinking???). They will be staying with family friends who are just a mile or so from where other D is staying. They will all get together and spend time while there. Oldest D knows situation and will watch out for her sister. Oldest D called last night to tell us that interstate was closed due to snow and they were trying to find a place to stay to wait it out. Talked to her again this morning, road finally opened (once daylight broke) and they are on their way again. This morning's drive is through mountain pass... They'll arrive this afternoon at destination. We will be so glad when they have arrived safely.

Again thank you for your response during our "crisis". I hope you and your family had a wonderful Christmas together. We certainly did here. Let's talk about the other topic sometime soon ok... nev

Nev,

You gave your daughter the gift of trust and love. I am sure she will remember this trip as a wonderful Christmas memory. I know it wasn't easy for you guys to let her go. She is very lucky to have such wonderful and understanding parents.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oldest D called last night to tell us that interstate was closed due to snow and they were trying to find a place to stay to wait it out. Talked to her again this morning, road finally opened (once daylight broke) and they are on their way again. This morning's drive is through mountain pass... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like a trip no one will forget. I hope they remembered to bring a camera or two. I love to keep one of the disposable ones in my truck, just in case. I scrapbook a little and it is fun to make pages with those kind of memories.

I just spent some time shoveling myself. We got snow the yesterday and it drifted in our driveway. Some part went out on my truck rendering it a 2-wheel drive, it was a fun ride yesterday. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Thank God, my husband was driving. We work at a hospital and they did not even put sand up there. In the morning, a bus was stuck and a car behind it, blocking the road. Just glad an ambulance wasn't trying to get through. In the evening, it was bad too. I stayed home today and my husband is going to put in the new part. Gotta love snow days.

I am glad you had a great xmas. We had a nice one. Just our immediate family (we usually invite friends over.) Girls are driving us crazy playing "Freaky Friday" over and over again.

I still feel like I didn't do Christmas like I should. I would have liked to have made Christmas goodies, decorated the house more, made cinnimon rolls for xmas morning. I used to love Christmas. When we first got married, I decorated anything that didn't move. My husband says it is okay, it is just because we have the kids now and are both working full-time that we don't have the energy to do it all. He really is a very understanding guy, he has been very loving and supportive of me in the last year.

I wish you and your husband both a wonderful new year. A year of redemption, love, growth, and healing. I hope at the end of 2004, that you and your husband will be happy, healthy and in love and the past will become a distant memory.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Cathy

Boobs: Yes, a trip no one will forget especially us. We were both a little anxious last night when she called to tell us road was closed and no available accommodations within 40 miles! The last time we spoke last night was about 1:30 am, they were spending the night in a 24-hr restaurant drinking lots of caffeine. They headed north again about 5:00 am (their time) to find the interstate closed at the border until daybreak to all vehicles without chains. Of course, they had no chains. My H almost put them in the car before they left, but decided it was unlikely they would need them - we never expected road closures although we did think snow was a possibility. Anyway, just talked with her and they've arrived safely. My H found a link to state road cameras so my 9 yr old S and I were on the phone with D and online scanning road cams as she told us where they were. Great fun for a 9 yr old boy, even tho we never spotted her. We are relieved she is safely at her destination!

As for cameras, this child is the queen of pictures! Always has her camera. She also makes lots of personal gifts for friends and family using pictures. This year for Christmas, she took her younger brother and sister to have their (all three of them) picture professionally taken as a gift for me. A lovely thought and the picture is beautiful. Also had one made for Dad as well...

Hey, I understand about Christmas. I was having trouble getting "up" for it, but rallied at the end. The house ended up fully decorated, we got some new Christmas music, a very nice pinot noir and settled in. We had Christmas dinner at our house this year (16 friends and family) and it was so much fun. We now happen to live near some family, first time we've lived near any of our family in the nearly 24 yrs we've been married. Then Sat. night we had our 3rd annual Christmas party at our house with friends, family, neighbors, co-workers, gym buddies... So, see I had to get in the spirit, too much was happening at our house. When we had our first Christmas party here, several of our neighbors told us that even tho they had lived here for 4 yrs, they hadn't met many of the neighbors until we moved in and started the parties. This is a great neighborhood of very fine people - it's been great to see everyone come together as a neighborhood.

Listen Boobs (ya know I have an old friends named Babs, yes Babs, and everytime I write your nickname I think of her), I really want to talk to you about the trust and betrayal topic we referenced earlier. Do you want to do that here or privately via email? I'd very much like to exchange experiences. How about right after the new year? Thanks again for helping me get through those frantic days with our D. peace...nev

Nev,

I am glad your kids are safe. One Christmas when I was 17 I was riding a bus home from LA. They closed the highway because of snow. We were stuck in the bus depot for hours. It was fun, someone had a guitar and sang christmas carols. Nowdays, I would freak at the thought of spending time in a bus depot.

Sounds like you had a very busy Christmas with all your events to keep you busy. We don't even have a regular mall here. Everyone drives 70 miles to the nearest mall. I think shopping at malls with all the Christmas music and the bustling about with Santas all around really set the mood too. We didn't have that here. Santa is still doing polaroids for $5. Next year, we are going over there for pictures with Santa. I will drag him to every store in the mall until he feels like scrouge (probably about 3 stores.) Sporting goods, pet store and the food court and he is done.

My email address is cbous345@yahoo.com, write when you get the chance.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Cathy