Dear all,

It has been 2 months since D-Day #2. WH is still living at his mothers house. He continuously visits us on a regular basis. Once in the morning and once in the afternoon. For a month we had absolutely no dialogue with him. He only conversed with the kids. His entire family, parents, brothers, aunties and uncles have told him he is completely on the wrong tracks and he should get his act together. I have not been rude or offensive with him apart for my expressing my initial anger. The past month seems to have been more communicative. However he is avoiding making a decision. He is more and more around and we are doing things together as a family. He has taken us out to dinner twice this week and we spent sunday together out shopping for the children. during this time, he was nice, gentle and also talking to me about this and that. the only thing we seem to not talk about is our ambivalent situation. He has been giving me kisses when he comes and goes. Three days ago on my birthday we all went out as a family, and he bought me a gift, obviously on behalf of the children, and came with a bouquet of flowers. The children are becoming very hopeful and optimistic with all this stuff going on, and our D told him the other day on our wedding anniversary that he should take me out alone and we should make up because this whole thing had dragged on too much and she didn't want us to be separate because it upset her. He told her not to interfere with the situation, it was between him and me. She insisted again that they wanted mommy and daddy to make up. I am being nice to him. I am keeping the doors to the marriage and reconciliation open, and showing him the way back. He is welcome when he comes around and there are no LBs. I don't know what sort of time period I should allow to find out what his intentions are. He seems like he may want to come back, but what bothers me is that he is not talking about the subject at all. I know he is not comfortable at all at his mothers house and he is not out and about enjoying himself. He goes to bed early, goes to work, comes by to see kids, most social activities are done with the family, then he goes back to his mothers house. what kind of life is this? He seems very thoughtful and unable to open up. Don't know what to do? Should I push him to talk or is it too early? Maybe I should let time bring him about? Advice appreciated.

me BS 39
WH 41
married 17 years, together 18
two kids S 15, D13
D-Day 10/03
separated for 2 months.

Has he indicated any reasons for his wandering?

Sounds like you are doing the right things and having family chastise him is a bonus.

When it feels right, please ask him what you were doing or not doing that may have contributed to his unhappiness in your marriage. You very likely played a role - maybe big, maybe tiny. But no matter how small a role you played, you have to fix it. So ask him so you'll know what to fix. But be prepared for nonsense answers. He may exaggerate trivial things and not reveal REAL things. This is your opportunity to fix the problems that you have control over - the ones you contributed. Don't get me wrong - the affair was 100% his decision - but usually the BS played some role and the BS - you - is the only thing you can fix. This is the essence of Plan A. Read up on Plan A - after you understand it, your time frame can be better defined.

It sounds to me like he may not know if the marriage can ever get better. Does he know much about MB. Does he have any hope that love can be rekindled?

To answer worthatry, we have talked many times about what he isn't happy about in the marriage. His explanations are sooooo unreasonable and without mistake it all comes down to what I haven't been doing right. It's either something I said, or the way I dress or even if I'm 5 minutes late getting ready to go out he'll get all worked up. By the way I am a very fit and beautiful woman with a university degree from a top ten university and I come from a very prominant family. Everyone I know thinks I am the perfect mother, loving, caring, soft intelligent and all. His family adore me. According to him he has done nothing wrong in this marriage. This topic has been talked over many times and I am sick and tired of hearing a load of BS. I think he is doing all this to justify his A. The A has been exposed to all relevant parties which is not a good thing for him because he is so overly concerned with his image. The OW is a single divorcee however necessary parties on her behalf also know of A. We (kids and I) are carrying out a logical plan A. Maybe this is why he is confused and cannot leave or come. I have one condition and that is that he remains faithful to me. I believe all else can be worked out. The reasons he keeps giving us are so illogical. Anyone with REAL problems would laugh straight out at the way he talks. That's what our friends are doing now. I think his guilt and the knowledge that he has been exposed with such unacceptable behaviour is making him squirmish and unable to make a move of any kind.
Advice appreciated!

yay, I think you are doing a wonderful Plan A right now and I agree with you that it has caused him some confusion. It sounds like he has, in fact, exaggerated your faults in order to justify his affair. That will make it harder to figure out what happened, if anything, that led to all this.

I think you should keep doing this for a while longer and maybe use some 180 degree principles in order to make your Plan B more effective.

Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting 180 degree list:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her someone she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic.
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.

They complement Plan A because in Plan B there is NC(no contact) with the WS.


This is a MUST READ thread: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=014880#000002

yay, I just went back and read some of your posts so I am more up to date on your situation. I didn't realize that all this had been going on for 2 years now and he has never really ended contact with the OW. I would think that is a LONG time to NOT be in recovery and its time for something to change.

He doesn't seem real interested in changing anything at this point, though, does he? Have you given any thought to contacting the Harley's? They are extremely effective marriage counselors with a great track record who can often acheive in a few sessions what others can never acheive. They might be able to help you get your H into counseling so you can resolve the issues that have led to his affair.

Without uncovering the problems, this is likely to drag on and on and you will just find more love notes two years down the road. See what I mean?

I think that you are probably closer to Plan B that intially thought. He has been able to drag this out for some time now and appears to even be getting comfy with the new status quo.

yay - you are describing a text book case. It sounds as if he's following the typical WS script perfectly. He's been abducted by aliens and had his brains scrambled, huh? No earthly explanation will do, right?

Tell me if I'm right. He's said at least some of the following at one point or another so far:

We're just friends (referring to the OW).
I love you, but I'm not "in love" with you.
I need space.
We've grown apart.
You're not the woman I married.
Blah, blah, blah.

Alien abductee translation: "I don't know what the heck I'm doing, but it feels good so I'll just blather out any excuse that comes to mind and everyone will believe me - even me!"

The reason he says such ridiculous stuff that no one with a pulse can make sense out of is because he's intoxicated on the love drug. But it's not really love. There are unmet needs getting stroked that has exactly the same effect in his brain that drugs do. He's getting a buzz.

Very, very typical and predictable.

But it all makes sense to him because he's painted over all the mirrors in his life. He's not performing the "oops" check non-abductees - you and me - normally unconsciously perform before we speak or act. The result: "blah, blah, blah", "alien-speak", "fog-latin."

Does he remind you of an adolescent? Thought so.

Please try to do this: don't take any of this personally.

I know that's a tough order, but it'll help you cope.

Look at it this way: as long as he's spouting fog-latin, you know he's still under the influence of the Mothership. While this is going on, there is NOTHING you can directly do to snap him out of it. He has to do this on his own.

The only thing you CAN do is to look deep inside and try to identify ANYTHING you did or did not do that could have contributed to his unhappiness. Be very self critical and open minded. This doesn't mean that any shortcomings you have are justification for his actions, just that in his stupor, when you can do nothing else to "save" him, you may as well remove all his excuses. When these excuses start sounding trivial, you know you're making progress, because he has to scrape to come up with something. Get it?

The really good news for you is that he's TYPICAL! Everything you can absorb on this site about infidelity applies to him. As you read other posts here you will recognize yourself and him coming and going as if somebody else is describing your situation. If you haven't already recognized this, you haven't read enough yet.

I strongly recommend you have a counseling session with one of the Harley counselors to get you focused on your particular circumstances. You won't regret it.

If you haven't already done so, read the link in my sig line, below.

OK, Mel is ahead of me. I didn't realize this was already longstanding.

All the more reason to get the Harley's advice.

WAT

Yay:

I just want you to know that you are so very blessed to be getting the help of Mel and Worthatry. They were literally my SAVIORS this time last year. Now, my marriage is in RECOVERY. Things are better than ever between me and my FWH. We just had a long talk about how it was this time last year. A GOOD PLAN A was essential for me.

Worthatry and Mel:
I wish I had a way to thank you. You have meant more in my life than some people that I have known for ages. You are GOD SENDS!!!!
Happy Holidays!

OK yay, now I'm caught up with Mel.

Let me ask you a couple questions:

Do you have a legal separation? If so, what does it stipulate for his time with the children, access to your home, etc.? Financial support?

What is the relationship you have with H's parents - where he lives? Will they allow him to stay there no matter what?

Are you self-sufficient financially?

If a divorce were to occur, would he be "cleaned out?" i.e., would he have to support you and the kids AND his new life?

What I'm working up to is whether you're already Plan B material. If you've done a credible Plan A for almost two years, and if he seems genuinely confused and emotional about what the children are telling him, going to Plan B may be exactly what he needs.

WAT

Hi mimi! You are too kind. You're now WAY more knowledgeable than I, so jump in here! I'm just finding some time during the holiday break - I'll become "scarce" again after the new year.

WAT

Thanks to all of you folks out there sending me wonderful advice. I finally logged onto the computer today. I live in europe so we have a time difference which means I am on the computer when you guys are not. Worthatry asked me about financial dependency. Well, yes I am financially dependent on him but we have a very good standard of life and in case of divorce he will have to support us. This will be a dear cost to him. Another reason why he freaks out at the first syllable he hears of 'court'. My relationship with his family has been good over all these years. They live about half an hour away from us. Their house is comfortable but WH doesn't feel comfortable there at all. His mother says he won't even eat there. Melody remarked about him becoming comfy about the situation. It isn't exactly that comfortable for him. He was at the house to see the kids this morning for 15 min. He arrived at 6:55 am. This means he must have left his mom's house at at least 6:30. He says that he wakes up at 5 am or something every morning. He then ends up going to bed before toddlers do. He dropped by this evening again. I was preparing dinner and before I said anything he said I won't be staying for dinner. I told him it was just about ready and he was welcome to eat with us. He said he wasn't feeling good and wasn't hungry anyway.He said he had had a very bad day. I asked him what was so bad and he said the general conditions were bad but somedays he was just a lot worse. No details. I didn't ask any details.

Do you think something specific may have happened to make him become so moody? If so what kind of action triggers depressive behaviour in WHs?

Quite unlike his current behaviour where he has been nice and gentle with us, he was evasive and extremely down while he was at the house. He was very thoughtful and not right at all. I on the other hand was confident and sort of matter of fact. I haven't been portraying a depressive, sad or somber picture for several weeks now. As to MC, I suggested several times in the past that we, or he is wished to go alone see a professional psychiatrist. I have contact with several excellent ones and I am currently in correspondence with one. He flat out says no; this is not my priority at the moment. I tried to get his mother to talk him into it, she didn't or couldn't manage it. It is very unlikely that he will accept such a thing since he believes that he is a victim.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by yay:
<strong>Do you think something specific may have happened to make him become so moody? If so what kind of action triggers depressive behaviour in WHs? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Typical WS behavior. Don't try to analyze or respond to every current in the river - you'll go nuts. He's in the "fence sitting mode." Genuinely confused, indecisive, and afraid to move. Expect more mood swings. This is a good sign - it means you've been doing the right things. They don't call this a roller coaster ride for nothing!

He needs some externally applied motivation because he cannot make a decision on his own.

I think you need to upset the status quo - carefully.

You've been patient - perhaps too long. Please consider taking steps to tighten your boundaries: communicate to him that this has gone on long enough and you and your family deserve to mend this or end this.

I assume you don't have a legal separation, or however it's termed in your government. Is there such a "pre-divorce" agreement available to legally define things during periods of separation? I suggest you consider starting that process - but not actually starting it until you get some more views from here or your counselor. The idea is not necessarily to succeed in obtaining a legal separation, but to let him know that you've reached your boundary and that that's the next step as a natural consequence of HIS choices. This will throw some reality in his lap. In essence, you need to deliver an ultimatum - marital/family counseling with a goal to rebuild your marriage - or we take the steps towards divorce. You cannot continue in limbo.

The trick will be to communicate this in a non-threatening manner - you don't want to come across as controlling or domineering - but he HAS to get the message that his choices have consequences and that you will not tolerate indecision.

One of two things will happen:

1. Reality strikes - he realizes you mean business and he's gonna get bled dry. He fears he may lose his ready access to the children. He reluctantly agrees to work on the marriage and then your REAL work begins.

2. He becomes defiant - madder than a wet hen - accuses you of destroying the family, blah, blah, blah. Then you choose either to follow through and end this mess or go back to the status quo. If you continue the course, he may wake up at a later point - or not. Assuming the legal separation is established, then you go to Plan B and isolate him totally from you.

Are you willing to upset the status quo?

Mel?

WAT

worthatry,

We have no pre-divorce aggreements. I could possibly ask for legal separation but that could lead to divorce after a year despite my wish to the contrary. I have been thinking that I need to talk to him about this limbo but I'm just not sure when. Since he is a typical clinical case, is it possible he sees the light while the status quo continues? I suspect after exposure on the OWs side as well things may not be going as smoothly there either. Would this be enough to motivate him?

Was the exposure on OW's side recent? If so, yes, turmoil abounds. In affairs, turmoil is good. All the more reason for you to upset the status quo on your side.

The object here is to upset his fantasy so that reality soaks back in. Being confronted with real consequences is the best way to achieve that.

If Christmas is an important time for your family, take this opportunity to do your best Plan A. Try to meet his emotional needs and emphasize family togetherness. NO LOVE BUSTERS!!! After the holiday please consider some way to up the stakes a bit. I'll be away for several days - I'll check back in on Saturday.

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mimi1254:
<strong>
Worthatry and Mel:
I wish I had a way to thank you. You have meant more in my life than some people that I have known for ages. You are GOD SENDS!!!!
Happy Holidays! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mimi, what a sweet thing for you to say! Thank you and I hope you have a much happier Christmas this year! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

yay, I agree with WAT's assessment here. What I meant by "comfortable with the status quo" is that he is comfortable enough with the situation to NOT change. He might not like it at his mother's, but he will get more adapted to it as time goes on and it sure hasn't motivated him to change thus far.

And as long as he is allowed to come home twice a day, he can still get his needs somewhat met by you, which only prolongs this stage.

I think its very important that you up the ante, so to speak, and start making plans to move to Plan B. An important aspect of Plan B is to determine what the road back will be for him.

What does he need to do to come back? It is very apparent that he needs to end all contact with the OW [via a no contact letter], show genuine remorse, and get into counseling to resolve the issues that led to this in the first place. He would also be required to open his life to you, ie: passwords to cellphones, email, etc and account to you for his time 24/7. That would include many calls throughout the day.

Do you think he is in contact with the OW right now?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have been their sole caretaker since they were born and there for their every need. Naturally they listen to me more than they do to him. Plus he has been away travelling for most of the time especially when the children were very young and in need of a lot of attention. You sow what you reap. Now he doesn't like it and is in a continuous power struggle with me. The A is either a result of this or that he comes from a very male dominant family who do regard such male behaviour common and as long as no one gets hurt even permissible</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yey, Here is something you wrote earlier. Does he believe that adultery is acceptable? Because if he does, you are not likely to change that about him. It sounds like he does think its ok since he was raised to believe it was and feels like a victim because you have punished him for doing something he thinks is ok.

Secondly, if the above is not applicable, I can see what has led to his affairs. He does not feel like a man in his home and this has made him extremely vulnerable to any silly goose who comes along and shows him some admiration. It sounds like admiration is one of his needs.

You want him to love you and in order for him to do that, you must meet his needs. Something has to change.

In order to make this work, you are going to have to move over and let him take charge of this show or it will never work. The children will have to learn to respect him as the head of the household. I wish Mimi would chime in here, because this is the same thing she went through in her marriage. I lost my last H over this very thing.

<small>[ December 24, 2003, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Melody Lane and Worthatry,

Thanks for keeping the thread going. To answer melody, yes, I do think there is something in his upbringing that makes him think that his A maybe acceptable and that he may have valid reasons. It is also true that he wants to have the final word(or rather I should never express my opinion about anything)in every single matter in the household. He believes this is his right because he is the financially superior partner. the fact that I took care and bore the burden or upbringing the kids and preserved and built the foundation of his entire life in this community seems to not count at all when it comes to any kind of decision making. He has been criticisizing and belittling me for years and years where I do not deserve this kind of behaviour at all.

This is for worthatry,

The exposure of the A on the OW's side was about 3 weeks ago. this is fairly recent. I think the bad mood may be wavelengths hitting the shore now. I wrote how he was really bad yesterday, well his auntie called me today and told me that he had called and visited her yesterday afternoon for 2 and a half hours. She said he complained about how uncomfortable he was at his mothers house and how bad he was feeling. She told him 'you asked for it'. He then said everyone blames me and cut the topic. She said they generally small talked about this and that and didn't touch the subject at all. She told me he looked terrible disturbed. I invited him over for dinner tonight eventhough we don't celebrate christmas. I prepared a delicious meal and had the fire going, wine etc. He arrived with desert. The kids were around in the pj's and it was cosy. He had dinner, again only talked about petty general subjects. No hints whatsoever to what is going on through his mind. I didn't badger him about it at all, as a matter of fact I tried not to act as if I was expecting anything at all. He thanked us for the dinner and said his bedtime had come and left. I knew not to expect anything but obviously once the evening is over I felt rather down sort of 'what now?'. Whatever happened yesterday put him in a completely different mood and it was still there tonight though he was trying to not to show it. He was preoccupied and all. I am also thinking now; when I found out about A I told him we couldn't live together for he was continuing his A and lying to us. I told him I could take the kids and go to my mothers. He didn't want the kids' routine to be disrupted so he very reluctantly aggreed to leave. He said that this separation would lead to divorce. I said 'no, not necessarily. I said when the time comes I will invite you back, don't worry.' I am wondering is he expecting me to invite him back? what about the OW? will he accept to come back if I ask him to? I don't think I should talk to him right now. I think I need to wait some more to see what is going on in his head and the OW as well. I think or maybe hope that things with OW are not as fine and dandy as he may have wished them to be.

Hi Yay.
You are living through some very trying times right now.
If you could fast forward to next year at this time, I wonder what you would be writing, don't you?

Did you read the topic below "For encouragement...Lostva's Success Story" posted by Resilent? It is a very worthwhile read!

I realize not all stories have this happy of an ending BUT her husband could not have been more unloving to her, in word or deed, and yet her kind persistance and love for him, in this case, sure worked and brought him back home.

I basicially did the same thing with my WH, never went to Plan B, and we are happy again.
He helped me clean all the shelves in the refrigerator today, such a simple homey task, but very kind of him!
(He could have been watching TV instead!)

Our family Christmas will be celebrated on New Year's Day so today was a quiet home day for us.
We are going 'Christmas' shopping tomorrow.

What a difference from last year at this time.
I was heartsick, absolutely soulsick but decided to put on a 'happy face' and not mope around for others to see. I cried EVERY day, many times each day, but in private!
Love, Julie Jo

<small>[ December 25, 2003, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>