I would advise you to follow the MB Principles as closely as possible. It seems like you are trying to do this your own way. The MB PLANS work and are your best chance IMHO.

Either PLAN A or PLAN B. Plain and simple!!!

I'm concerned about you not understanding these principles by you saying stuff like "FORCING HIM TO CHOOSE".

I will check with you later. Rushing out now.

Take Care.

yay - mimi has a point that I didn't think of before. By insisting your H separate until the A is over, what you've done is like a combination Plan A/Plan B.

To me, his showing the letter from your D is a WHOLE lot better than him denying it! This is good! He's clearly struggling to figure out what he wants. You had it right with the title of the post: "seriously confused WH....."

We need to figure out how to get him to come home without it seeming like you've lowered your standards regarding the A. When he's home, a full on Plan A can be implemented for awhile. Set a time limit for yourself, then if things don't improve, ask him to leave and implement a full on Plan B.

So, here's my suggestion: Write that Plan A letter. Express your love and hopes for your marriage and family. Maybe quote from your daughter's letter. Then invite him home as the bottom line in the letter. With the good heads here to help, you'll produce a letter that will bring tears to his eyes.

WAT

Worthatry,

I aggree that getting WH back home will make Plan A much easier. However I hope you all can understand why at the time I had to have him out. He had been lying about ending A and carrying on. Cake-eating. If I had let him stay around the same pattern would continue. I had to make my point that I would not accept this A. I think or hope maybe he is realizing this now.

He has arrived back from his short trip. He loves travelling and usually is back in a good mood. The last couple of times and particularly this time he arrived sort of lifeless. No emotions. No interest in anything whatsoever. sort of dead.Very unlike his typical behaviour. I wonder if maybe he wasn't able to get his little fix when he was away. I really hope that things are going sour out there. If this is the case, then what will he do? I know I am speculating his behaviour, but if he had a good time out there, would he be moping around everyone else. He didn't use to be like that when he was fooling aroune and coming back to us. He was all over his D as usual and she doesn't respond the way he expects. I think he is trying to get rid of his guilt he feels towards her by being so extra affectionate.

I spoke to a mutual friend we know in context of New Years today.I hadn't seen her since separation and she said she saw WH the day before New Years Eve on an occasion.She said they had a very long talk when he told her about his distress and distraught situation and how bad he was feeling being at his mothers,blah! blah! blah!. This very outspoken lady told him his problem was not at his mothers house it was at his house and he had better pack his stuff and get his A** back home and sort out his problem. She said that deeper into the conversation he admitted he had been naughty(!) and had a fling. she said he addressed the A as a fling and said it was not love or anything serious. Interesting, a fling that lasted for over 3 years? This mutual friend of ours told me she gave him a real tough time and some very sound advice. I hope it works. WH has not been hearing what he wants to from anybody who knows us. Maybe only from acquantances who only know him may tell him things he wants to hear.

He seems to be buried in deep thoughts, maybe,I just hope he makes a move to come back. From there on, Plan A may help him get over his addiction to OW. How do WSs behave when A is going smoothly and when it is hitting the rocks?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by yay:
<strong>How do WSs behave when A is going smoothly and when it is hitting the rocks? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yay - this is unpredictable and you shouldn't dwell on it. It's obvious your H is on the fence and indecisive. This is all you need to know that you have a very good shot at this.

Now, for about the 4th or 5th time - what about your Plan A letter? This is the perfect vehicle to get him home so you can do a REAL Plan A! You HAVE to stop analyzing and start taking some action!

WAT

I don't know why but I am feeling depressed today.It's cold and rainy too!!!!
WH came by yesterday and had lunch with us. He spent a couple of hours at home and then left to meet with a friend of his. I will take the kids to his mothers today for a couple of hours before we come back home for the evening. I think we will tell him that he should come back home tonight and end this ambivalence so we can start working things out. I hope he aggrees, if not this time, I will make another attempt in a different way a couple of weeks later.

The thing that bothers me though is that whenever we see each other he is very affectionate to the kids, tells them he loves them and misses them, but he has not said or shown any such emotion towards me at all. He avoids contact alltogether. Does this mean that he doesn't want me at all, and it is only the kids that he is interested in? I read on dr.Harleys site that for a while WS were unable to express any feelings for BS, but this is hurting me a lot. It's like I am the mother of the children in the house and he talks to me in that context, but no intimacy whatsoever. Is is possible he has no love left for me? If so, if I manage to bring him back, will he never treat me lovingly and always think of how to leave me or OW? I am so scared if this is going to be the outcome.

I'm gonna jump in and ramble as usual...
and spell badly as usual, as well... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

rambling on....

Yay...

but he has not said or shown any such emotion towards me at all. He avoids contact alltogether.

gonna turn this back on you...how do you describe your behavior and attitude when he is there....
are you upbeat..
serious
glad to see him...
withdrawn...

also have you verbalized concern about him..
gosh dear you don't look like you are sleeping good...I hope you are well...
you look tired..
verbalizing concerns about HIM...the him that he has buried under all his junk....

just trying to get a pulse on where your actions are...and see if/what happens if you mix them up a bit...
a little experiment in your interactions vs his response...
see if we can't find which gets his attention...and then work it...

Also have you approached him with any physical contact...
which can be hard and scary...and you may get rejected...but knowing and processing that potential outcome can sometimes make it easier to face when it occurs...
have you asked him for a hug...or asked if you could kiss him...
I know scary...
but what's the loss and what's the gain...

The other question I have is have you maintained such a constant dependable presence in all of this that he just expects it...

expects you to take primary care of daughter/children
take care of the home
take care of everything...
and what if you give him some of that responsibility...

if you ask him to come home and he says no....this time...what about waiting a few days...then letting him know you are going away...

you could a couple of things...

1. arrange a night or two away...and have him come home to watch kids....force him into the home environment...

2. arrange a night or two away...and NOT have him watch the children...
Oh I'm sorry dear...didn't know that you would be interested in doing that....

so you arrange a trip on which you are accessible...but not with a lot of detail...NOT suggesting anything outside of marital vows...but a fun trip with another female friend...in which there is a lot of things to do....and see...and not fill him on to much of the details...
call me on the cell if it's an emergency...etc type of thing...

kind of flexing your wings...and doing something that shows your independance....

and coming home...and still not to much detail...

this may be very effective

1. if you plan this soon after you ask him to return home..and he says "no" this time...kind of like that "no" sets other things in motion...that he is not aware of...

and may get his attention...like buddy you are using up your return home ticket sooner than you think...

2. If you do this and he stays in your home...make sure you come home...happy upbeat...not to much detail to him...and scoot him out of there...
thanks for staying....see you soon buh-bye.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

3. If he doesn't watch the children...then again...not much detail to him when you see him next....

any questions....
oh I wasn't aware you were interested in what I am doing....hmmmm thanks for asking...I appreciate it...batt eyes...change subject...
kind of the whole learning to babble back thing...not withholding conversation...but not really saying much...

creating the illusion of focusing on other things...making plans...with or without him...

brochures on counter of different vacation plans..
web-site print outs...
any questions from him......
oh just thinking about some summer get away with the kids this summer.....humming to oneself...

might want to consider some tactics that create an illusion...

the other thing I wanted to address is the state of a WS and their ability to wallow in the poor me syndrome...ad-nauseum..

that is becomes easier to hide than to face those they have done wrong...human nature...

espoir in her recovery approched this in a very loving and giving way....the attachment of the WS dignity ...to forgiving...themselves...

here's a bit copied from another post... mine with her good advice and insight...
There have been a lot posts lately about forgiveness and while we often hash out the motions and actions of forgiveness...we don't often talk about a key factor...and perhaps one of the harder parts of forgiveness...

The creation of an environment of forgiveness...
which is no easy task...BS deeply feel the need for demonstrative sincere apoligies...
WS often feel overwhelmed and find it easy to wallow in the pain rather than face things.....

there is even talk of punishment by spouses, and God...thrown in..

and none of those are meant as judgements..they are the nature of the beast...

So I steal this from Espior from whom these words of wisdom came...for often changing our attitude and perception of what we are really wanting from one another...changing directions...sometimes brings that which we are seeking...

here's what she said...


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I found that during the affair period, I did end up having alot of discussion with my H that were helpful in the long run. Firstly, I did "educate" him. I would read books and share information with him- how affairs develop, the affair "bubble", statistics on affairs, and the effects of divorce on children. I just did this calmly in an informative manner. I also did discuss some stuff about the OP with him, always being careful not to insult her. But stuff would come out during these discussions that was food for thought and that would pierce that bubble. Often I would just raise issues of practicality or logistics- which was often stuff we needed to figure out anyway.

One thing I told my WH was that he had become a liar and a cheater and I knew that was not "him"- I couldn't let him be that kind of person. You can use this technique on your WS too. For example, if he wants to discuss houses with you, you say, "I can't let you go behind OW's back with me, it isn't fair to her to let her believe she has a future with you when you are planning otherwise. I can't be party to you being dishonest. Because I respect you and I know that is not the kind of man you want to be" You take it away from you being the injured party. NOT "you hurt me so much, I have to be away from you" RATHER "I have to protect you and your dignity by distancing myself from this lying behavior". I don't know if this makes sense.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Creating an environment for the WS that identifies the behaviors that are hurtful to all...and casting them in new light...
the new light being...

I believe in you more than I believe in your bad behaviors...
I believe YOU yourself are worthy of better and I know dam well I am...

Shifting the focus....
and this actually may be the key part of true forgiveness and true repentance...


whew that was a long ramble...
ARK

The confusion continues. Children told him they wanted him to come back home yesterday evening. He gave them the same talk about 'too much damage, he is afraid of coming back and afraid of divorce as well.'. It sounds like he wants to keep the status quo going. He came by early this morning to see kids again. At night as well. He was appearing very insecure. He stayed for dinner. Didn't talk to me much, so I didn't make an effort. I can't be all over him if he seems not interested. He was very sullen as he was leaving. I think that towards the weekend I will give him another straightforward and assertive talk and see if that will guide him back.

Yay,

Are you listening to us?

Have you studied the Basic Principles of PLAN A?

Do you need help in understanding the Principles?

It is important to do PLAN A if you are really wanting to try to recover your marriage.

Yay, please rethink your attitude about this. Could it be that being too demanding or controlling may have contributed to the climate for your WH's affair? I have concern about a couple of your comments.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He stayed for dinner. Didn't talk to me much, so I didn't make an effort. I can't be all over him if he seems not interested. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why you didn't talk to him? What part of the MB principles state this. This would have been a great opportunity to do your part in meeting needs for conversation, affection, admiration, domestic tranquility. Study the EMOTIONAL NEEDS identified by the Harleys.

What about this, Yay?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> will give him another straightforward and assertive talk and see if that will guide him back. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This has also not been recommended by us or MB. Why do you believe that will guide him back. Meeting his emotional needs in PLAN A may guide him back. Do not plan on Lovebusting to guide him back, YAY.

It's your choice. However, I would encourage you to apply the MB principles.

<small>[ January 12, 2004, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

mimi,
Yes I understand Plan A. I have actually been in it for the past several years. I am not trying to dominate the marriage in fact that has been the attitude of WH for the whole of our marriage. I have always been trying to accomodate him. He started straying in his mind and casual flirting years back and that is when he started to criticise and blame me to justify his naughty behaviour. OW started as one of those flirts but he got stuck this time. I was a young mother who only wanted to please her husband and have a good happy family. I was innocent and trusting and never once suspected WH of infidelity. I have been heartbroken more than once, I have been constantly criticised and put down. I am a beautiful, very fit, intelligent woman with a degree from a top ten university. I am thirty nine but look like I am 24. I work and I am admired and appreciated in this society. I am known to be very honest, hardworking, giving etc.We live abroad and come from a much more conservative culture where men having As is accepted as normal behaviour by a part of the population. If you ask anyone what one of my foremost trait is,they will say tolerance. I am not saying I didn't make any mistakes in this marriage. I must have done somewhere but not in a way to lead to this. WH has been lying about everything to me. The smallest, petty issue he talks about is eiher exaggerated or partly a lie. This is invariably true. Currently I heard that WH was out with a friend of his, and he told him that he had no intention of coming back home, and he was not saying this to me because he didn't want to upset me. When I talk to him he keeps saying he has made no decision and is apprehensive about both alternatives. He says he doesn't want a divorce but is frightened of coming back home. IMO he is trying to prolong the status quo as it is, so he is avoiding making a decision about anything. I spoke to him last night when he came over. I told him that the term break was approaching and the children had had a terribly disappointing holiday season and they wanted to go away somewhere. I told him this was the perfect opportunity for us to get away and and make a positive move on our marriage. I told him he shouldn't be afraid of anything and that I was willing to talk and do everything I could to help mend the wounds and get back on the right path. I told him I trusted him and believed he also wanted the same for us. I told him he was welcome to come back home and I also told him that this current status quo situation was not satisfying any one of us. I told him that this had dragged on a long time now and that he needed to make up his mind because this odd state of pretend family couldn't go on indefinitely. &#305; told him I loved him, that he was my husband of 18 years and was very important to me and I didn't envisage breaking up this family and not having him a part of my life. I tried not to LB, but there were times I was firm when I was trying to make clear that we needed to know what he wanted to do. He talked about all his old stories and justificaations for the A. I listened to the same stuff for the zillionth time and did not argue with him eventhough he was not very rational. I actually told him I understood he was experiencing certain difficulties but I wanted to help him overcome them. He did not want to talk about A. When the subject came up I told him it had hurt me in an inexplicable way and he told me he couldn't understand why I wanted him back knowing he had been with OW. I told him I was his wife and mother of our children and I loved him, and I knew I had to put pride aside and listen to my heart. He told me he didn't want a divorce, he told me inside he wanted to stay but he was scared(I've heard this a hundred times).Scared it won't work he says.
He talks to me differently than he does to his buddies when he is out at dinner. The impression he gives outside is that he is not coming home and this is over. To me he acts indecisive and at times he seems like he just might come back. He must be acting or lying to either one of us.

Anyway today he came by for only half an hour and did not talk to me at all. He actually completely ignored me. He wasn't too attentive to the kids either. He sat on the couch and sulked. Then he got up and left. I assumed that I must have upset him last night with the talk. Telling him that we wanted a decision before things got worse was obviously not what he wanted to hear. He doesn't want any pressure, no negative consequences, but he wants to stay out, be free but still come and go as he wishes, have dinner as he desires and then go out to a bar with friends while the wife and kids are at home. He wants this status quo to go on. It isn't fair on us. When I ask him to make up his mind, he comes and ignores me completely, does not talk to me at all and sulks. Help!!!!!! We live in a closed and conservative society. It is much harder on women around here than it is for men. I think I'll just wait for a while and see what happens next. I have shown him that I want reconciliation, we love him and I am willing to work with him to restore this family.

Yay,

I am getting frustrated with trying to help you. I'm sorry. I still don't think you understand PLAN A according to the MB principles. You really have to try to do it.

It doesn't seem like you are taking a real hard look at the part you played and are continuing to play in contributing to the A. It is important for you to focus on how YOU need to change. That's the only chance you have at recovering your marriage. Otherwise you are just venting and the A will continue. You only have control over yourself and need to develop YOUR PLAN.

What is YOUR PLAN, YAy? That is what I want to know. If you want me to continue to help you, spell that out for me. What emotional needs do you need to address in your marriage? What Lovebusters will you discontinue>
That means, NO RELATIONSHIP TALK and NO COMMANDS. You told him what you wanted to do and did not seem to be negotiating with him.

You also don't seem to be learning that you can't listen and believe anything that your WH is saying. He is in the fog.

Yay, if you don't follow these principles, this approach will not work for you.

Dear all who have been reading my thread,

It has been an eventful several months. To update briefly WH was living at mothers house and frequently visiting house unable to decide whether to stay or go. The kids and me BS, told him several times that we would like to have him back and keep the family intact. He was also told that OW was not acceptable. The last time I mentioned this was about a month ago and I told him that term holidays were coming and we wanted him to decide by then. For the past month neither me nor the kids mentioned any of this again. He came and went regularly. The kids had their final exams. D did well, S did not do as well despite the fact that he has always been an A student. WH was sad and worried about this. When he asked S why the results were not so good, S told him he was unable to concentrate on his lessons because he was upset about his father being away. A week after this incident we had 3 day holiday followed by term-break. WH was spending more and more time at home by the day. He would just come and sit around. Finally, 2 days ago he came at 7:30 in the morning. It was a holiday. He got into S's bed and stayed there for 3 hours. When I got up he hugged me very strongly and gave me a big kiss. He stood there holding me for a long time with tears in his eyes. He stayed around the house for the whole day. In the evening I told him to pack his clothes and come back and stay at home. He babbled and came up with excuses again. I told him it seemed he wanted to come back, therefore I mentioned this again, but I wouldn't say it anymore and wait for him to call me. 3 minutes later he called me and said he was coming home. He said we would have to talk about many things but not immediately. I told him as he wished. So, now he is back!!!!!!! There has been no serious talk about anything so far. Initially he was quiet, timid, shy and blue. Now he is more relaxed and seems to be better. I am not bringing up any relationship talk unless he wants to talk about it. He has quite a bit of travelling to do this month so we won't be seeing each other all that much. After those trips he should be around quite a bit more. It seems, although one can never know for sure, the A is losing its strength and heat. WH has not been with OW for over a month except for once at a meeting which I was told was very formal and they hardly conversed. I do not know if there has been any telephone or e-mail correspondence.
At this time I and the kids are trying to provide a peaceful environment here at home for WH. I am avoiding LB's and showing my affection for him. I also found out he has been to a doctor and is now on AD's. WH was always prone to become depressive and during the three months separation he was exhibiting depressive behaviour. I really hope this all works out well for all of us! What do I do next???????

^^^^^^^^

^^^^^^^^^^

To all who have been following this thread. WH has been back for a month now. He has been travelling for two and a half weeks so the time he has spent at home has been less. He has been travelling places away from OW. He is taking AD pills and they seem to be mellowing him. He has an appointment with doctor when he comes back from trip and doctor will tell him whether to continue with pills or not. Since he has been away I do not know if he is communicating with OW at all or not. Before he went away he was quiet and mostly thoughtful not saying much. I don't really know what to do or how to act to get him to relax so I just try to be normal, the way I usually am. Another thing is he doesn't want to talk about the A or OW at all. He won't bring the subject up nor will he let it be brought up. I feel the issue should be clarified but I don't want to make things worse by mentioning it. Maybe some advice would help me out here!