Well, I already have a card and gift purchased and wrapped for WW. But I have just recently begun to consider the 180 Degree List as a middle step between Plan A and Plan B.

So, does that rule about not buying gifts apply to ALL gifts, or just to the little extras like flowers and such?

<small>[ January 31, 2004, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: UN ]</small>

Uncomfortably, I'd suggest that you go ahead and give the gift and card to your wife, and that whatever you do, you NOT appear cold or withdrawn to your wife. Other changes are probably good, but don't go to cold and withdrawn in the process.

And then, after the holidays, how would you feel about talking more about getting you into Plan B? It just feels like it's time for you to be planning that and heading in that direction.

And yes, it does make a difference, even when you're already living separately.

Yea, I think you're right, about the gift, the card, and Plan B.

I can just feel it in my gut. I know her better than I know myself. She's done with this marriage and is hanging on for who knows what reason. So to protect myself and to protect my sanity, I have to, at the very least, go to Plan B. However, since I'm also watching everything very carefully....

In the past couple of days, there's been an as yet unidentified purchase on our joint checking account (only $67, but still no idea what it is), and also a purchase on one of the credit cards to an airline company for three figures (could only be a ticket to fly somewhere). I have to say that it looks like she's trying to get some stuff bought with "our money" before it's too late.

So it seems clear that, simply in the interest of protecting myself financially, I may be looking at taking legal action here REALLY soon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ December 23, 2003, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: Uncomfortably Numb ]</small>

Ok, UN, I'm glad you're aware enough of your own limits. So... here's the question. How much financial damage can you take? Can you survive having all the credit cards maxxed out, financially speaking? How much protection do you really need there? We need to balance that against the time you need to finish your Plan A and get prepared for Plan B.

I'd also say that a legal proceeding is going to cost you a lot more than the amounts you're seeing your wife spend on the credit card. I just went through a six-month custody battle. The retainer was $1000... And my second bill was more than ten times that amount. Don't enter the legal arena unless those numbers don't scare you, or unless your wife preceeds you in going there.

So, having said that, let's go back to Plan A and Plan B. I know you've done well on the LBs and meeting needs as much as you can. You've just started to expose the affair to your wife's family. Any other exposure happening? Does the OM have a family you can talk to, or colleagues or friends you can talk to? Remember, when talking to them, that the important thing is that you love your wife, you want to work things out, you're hurting really badly because of the relationship with OM, and you want her to end that so you guys can work things out.

That's Plan A. How long will it take you to get all that done? Two weeks or so, maybe?

Then there's Plan B. Since you're living alone, you have a head start on it, but how about if you read up on it and start putting together a list? There's a lot to be done, including protecting yourself financially (keep her from spending your money), emotionally (keep her from contact with you), and physically (stay out of the same space as her). Why not spend some time making a list of all the ways you can think of to protect yourself?

Thanks JJ.

Well, she could run up about $15,000 in Credit Card debt alone if she so desired, plus any other accounts or loans she might be inclined to open up. And the additional retainer fee for my lawyer would be another $1250.

So on to Plan A: As for any more exposures, the only ones I can think of are her sister's family, who are out of town until after the New Year, and maybe her ex-husband's mother, whose partially remodeled garage she's living in right now. Oh, and I suppose the kids to some degree or another.

As for the OM, all I know is his name and the city he lives in. To the best of my knowledge, he's not married, nor in any kind of committed relationship (other then the A with my WW). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> I suppose I could do some research, even spend some money on an "investigation" to be sure, but I think he's entirely unattached.

As for Plan B: I'm really ready for that emotionally and physically, except for two things. First is not having any idea who could be the "go-between". Second is the financial protection. The thing I'm really afraid of there is, not only am I finding myself repeatedly shocked by what this person is capable of, but I know she learned a lot from her first husband about how to run up debts at the end of the marriage to get toys and trips and stuff, not to mention his amazing ability to pawn anything, no matter who it belonged to, even the kids!

So, sure, she couldn't wipe me out completely. And with a good lawyer, I might even be able to argue about any and all charges made since the day she moved out. SO I suppose there's still some wiggle room.

But the fact is, I am just plain scared about how selfish and thoughtless and destructive she can be! I truly believe she's capable of anything right now. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Protecting myself financially...

It figures that I'd wake up at 4am with this realization. But at least I stayed in bed for an hour and a half before finally sitting down at the computer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I see some problems with this...

</font>

1. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In our commounity property state, of every dollar she spends, fifty cents is mine. So half of the money she spent to take her trip to see him last month was mine. The money she's spent to buy and ship gifts to him...to pay for the cell phone with free long distance that she uses to call him...to pay for her internet accounts to chat and email with him...to buy airline tickets to wherever...half of all of that was mine. I really have a problem knowing that I'm helping to finance her affair. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /></font></li>
2. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We both work. Of our combined income, about 35% is from her, and 65% is from me. So to add insult to injury, I'm working for about two thirds of any money she's spending for her affair. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /></font></li>
3. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I tried to protect myself from her spending my money, I'd have to basically cut her off from having access to my paychecks. Out of all fairness, she'd have every right to do the same. Well, first of all, by law, half of my income is hers, and vice versa. So if I did that without any legal arrangement, it could be a problem. But also, if that happened, then I'd still be dealing with paying 100% of our bills, while only having access to 65% of our income.</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
So I'm probably going to have to talk to my lawyer anyway. Because the only way I can truly see for me to protect myself financially, to make sure that all of these bills that we have get paid, is to have some kind of enforceable legal arrangement.

To be fair, other than the past couple of days, she's been fair about our money. She's taken less than her "weekly allowance" out of our joint account to leave more behind to pay debts. Also, having worked overtime for the past month, she's still left all of that extra income behind to pay debts.

So I'm concerned that I need to protect myself. I'm concerned that the only way to truly do that is with a legally enforceable agreement of some kind. I'm concerned about acting too soon, but I'm also concerned about acting too late.

What fun it is to ride and sing......

Crap.

It seems obvious that I'm not able to follow the MB principles. It seems obvious that I shouldn't be asking for help and advice here, when I seem to not be able to actually follow it.

I'm sorry folks. I just don't know what to do anymore. I just can't sit by and keep helping her pay for her affair. I just can't sit by and let her have so much power over my financial health, mental health, and even physical health.

WW has not shown even one tiny, itty, bitty, little shred of evidence that she's even the least bit interested in anything having to do with our marriage whatsoever.

So I sit back and keep paying for her cell phone while she spend hours every night talking to "someone"? I sit back and let her spend money that we need to pay our bills, money that we don't really even have, to buy some airline ticket to who knows where for who knows what reason? I sit back while she sends gift after gift after gift halfway across the country for him? I sit back while she invests all of her time and energy into him, and gives me absolutely, positively nothing unless she's asking for more money?

So I go to Plan B. That's perfectly clear. But how the heck do I do that, still make sure that I have access to our income to get our bills paid, and not give her the freedom to keep taking advantage of that connection?

I'm at a loss here. I really am. I can read all of the plans, I can see the reason in them, but I just don't know how to apply them to my life. Though it took thought and effort, Plan A was pretty easy, since it was mostly about trying to be a good husband and father, while continuing to negotiate for the end of her affair. But this Plan B.....maybe I just don't get it.

<small>[ December 24, 2003, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: Uncomfortably Numb ]</small>

UN:

I don't think PLAN B is effective without a GOOD (I know this is the wrong word) PLAN A. Read WAT'S GUIDELINES and/or WORTHATRY's recent posts. He's the PLAN A GURU. Send out a plea for him to help you, asking him if PLAN A is still right for you. He was my saviour at your stage.

Regardless of what plan you are in, protect yourself financially from your WW. She is under the influence of an alien at this point and should be considered dangerous to herself and you. Affairs bring about financial ruin and WSes really don't care. They are just like drug addicts. Remember read WORTHATRY. He explains this real well.

Also want to warn you against lawyers. I consulted with one who tried to rip me off. If I had stayed with him, he would have contributed to my financial ruin and would have led me to divorce court in order to get more money. I got a cheap legal separation which protected me. It became null and void as soon as my FWH and I reconciled a few months later. However, it protected me financially from his bad decisions which he is continuing to pay for.

Hang in there.

Write out how you would want the finances separated. Tell WW you want to talk finances and that you would like to formalize it in a separation. If you both can agree to the terms, I think whatever terms you both agree to just gets written into the legal agreement.

You are feeling powerless and writing out how you would want things split could give you more power.

Wanted to add also, this obssessive thinking about the money she's spending on the A is hurting you more than it's helping you. It has coaxed you into acting...and the thoughts have done their work...now drop them and think about other things. Definitely spending too much of your valuable time thinking about this money issue. There are other things to think about that would help you more...

<small>[ December 24, 2003, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: StillHereMakingIt ]</small>

Thank you once again.

As for the actual finances, I did spend several hours coming up with a complete budget of our incomes and bills. I didn't include things like food, gas for cars, or "unplanned expenses" like clothing or car repairs. With that, she and I came to an agreement about what would happen with our incomes, how it'd be divided, who'd be responsible for getting the bills paid, and so forth. Up until now, she has not only stuck by that agreement, she's left more money in our account to get more debts paid.

That agreement has all of the money going into our joint account, me being responsible for paying all of the bills out of that account, and her taking a "weekly allowance" out of that account for her own gas and food and whatnot. Then again, the agreement also included no charges to credit cards that hadn't been discussed and agreed upon beforehand. We just don't have any of that agreement in writing, and I'm finding it difficult to trust her with anything now.

It doesn't help that all 5 people (family and friends) that I've been sharing all of this with here at home have been adamant about me getting out there and filing the Divorce papers before she has a chance to do some real damage. So I am going to talk to someone in my lawyer's office to ask some of these questions, just to be sure that I have a clear understanding of everything. And my lawyer is a wonderful lawyer. She came VERY highly recommened from 3 sources that I really trust. As for the costs, one frind who recommended her because she had handled her divorce said that after all was said and done, she actually got a partial refund of her $1500 retainer. And this couple had multiple properties and ivestments and loans and stuff to work out. So I'm very comfortable with my lawyer's skills and motives. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I'm still thinking...still thinking...

<small>[ December 24, 2003, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: Uncomfortably Numb ]</small>

I don't know about in your state, but in California you can get a financial agreement drawn up that is like a business document. We got one for only $250. My problem is that although H drew it up and sent it to lawyer to be typed, now he refuses to sign it. If he had signed it, that would be binding. If we got divorced all of the financial part would be already decided.

Instead H has moved in with OW, kept all his checks, refused to pay any bills (he needs all his check to lavish on OW). So I finally filed for bankruptcy. Now he is threatening to sell our mobile home for $2,000, just so I have to move. It is in his name, but is considered community property. But he does not care.

I would advise getting financial agreement drawn up early, because once in Plan B, your W may get very angry and start on the vengeful path. The way H and I are going, soon there will be nothing to fight over - it will all be gone.

Well, according to my lawyer...

</font>

1. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would be protected from anything that she does individually as soon as anything is filed, as would she be protected from me.</font></li>
2. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have two options for legal agreements, Divorce and Legal Separation.</font></li>
3. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The cost to my lawyer would be the same for either one.</font></li>
4. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If we had a Legal Separation drawn up, and later decided to Divorce, it'd be a whole separate process all over from the beginning including costs.</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
So, if I was going to use my lawyer for anything, it'd only be a full Divorce. If I wanted to try some kind of legal separation, I'd try to find one of those cheap-and-quickie places or some kind of software to do it. Because I'm not paying $1500 just to get a signed and notarized written copy of the agreement we've already made with each other.

So, as for today and tomorrow, I've decided to wait on any legal proceedings. I'm sure my parents will chew me out some. However, I'm not quite convinced that I'm ready to send that kind of message. Being who I am, despite what's already happened, I'd feel guilty if I didn't, at the very least, give us one last chance to discuss our marriage. Which is something we haven't done even once in almost a month.

If my understanding of Plan A is correct, not talking about us at all isn't even close to negotiating the end of the affair.

For those that have been following my ramblings, is it any wonder that my WW had problems dealing with me? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Quck update: WW contacted me about a few things, so I took the opportunity to respond with some things of my own. Here's the key one...

My Question: Now that it's been almost 4 weeks, I'd like to spend some time soon talking about us, where we stand, and so on. How do you feel about that?

He Response: I agree. maybe this weekend depending on how/when I am working.

My Follow-Up: That sounds good. I look forward to hearing from you about this weekend.

I don't see her response as meaning anything more than she's willing to talk. But I feel like I handled it in a good way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You folks ain't kidding that this is work! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

un ... what is it you and she have agreed upon? only that you need to talk. you did do a good job of broaching the subject. *clapclapclapclap* but i feel it would have been an excellent opoortunity for you to practice poja (even if she doesn't know that she's doing it). more on this in a moment.

and now, for something completely different ...

here's what i know or can infer from your conversation:

1. she also thinks you both should talk
2. she's not going to want to talk about the same things you will want to talk about
3. that she's really trying to avoid the conversation if at all possible
4. you probably won't hear from her this weekend (see number 3)

i know it may sound like i'm a gloomy gus, but what she's saying is typical of fog speak and it's screaming loud and clear in her response to you:

"maybe this weekend depending on how/when I am working."

this one sentence gives her every single out she needs to put you off. it's the middle of a holiday week and she has no idea what her work schedule is? don't get me wrong, the possibility for this exists, but is it likely? i hope i'm waaaaay off base.

now, back to poja (policy of joint agreement ... sorry that i don't have a link). your conversation using poja might have gone more like this.

un: Now that it's been almost 4 weeks, I'd like to spend some time soon talking about us, where we stand, and so on. How do you feel about that?

un's wife: I agree. maybe this weekend depending on how/when I am working.

un: I feel that this discussion is important. can we agree on a time when it's likely you'll be available?

un's wife: i really have to check my schedule.

un: i understand that this time of year is busy for you. can we agree on a time on friday for you get back to me so that we can finalize the details of our talk?

and so on.

with this, you're doing lots of things:

1. you're stating your feelings
2. you're negotiating something upon which you both agree
3. you're validating her feelings and/or circumstance
4. you're re-gaining the control she took from you with her milquetoasty "maybe depending" statement

even with this, you may not be able to pin her down to anything (poja is, to steal from stephen covey, 'win-win or no deal'). but i think you can agree that the process works you toward a something tangible where the conversation you described did not.

i've read this thread and some of the other posts you've had. you're learning and learning fast. of that, you should be proud. keep up your hard work!

OK, now I'm trying to begin the prep for this possible discussion this weekend. Here's the "script" of ideas and words I've come up with so far, to try to call upon as needed.

------------------------------------------------

First, if there's no real "opener", I'd start by saying "Well, I think I'll just get right to the point. Before you moved out, I had asked you a few questions about us, and I'd like to ask one again. Do you still want to be married to me?"

Now here's the thoughts I have depending on her simple yes or no answer.

Yes: I'm very happy to hear that. So what are we going to do now to work toward rebuilding our marriage?
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you ready to start working on this right away? If not, when do you think you would be ready to work on this together?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Would you be willing to go to Marriage Counseling together? (feels more important right now than the rest)</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you prepared to end your relationship with OM, and to sit down with me to write a No Contact letter to him? (with ideas for contents and delivery to follow if yes)</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Would you be willing to join me in giving up all Internet activities indefinitely? (to insure no contact and give us more time to find new activities to share)</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Would you be willing to exchange all of our email, message board, voice mail, and any other passwords? (yes, we both do this, as a sign of our efforts to be open and honest with each other)</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What conditions would you like to see that might help you feel more comfortable as we work on our marriage?</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
No: Well, that's not the answer I was hoping for. I have to admit that it hurts me to know that you're not willing to work on our marriage. (right now?) It also hurts me to know that you're continuing your relationship with OM. But, I can't control what you do, what you think, or how you feel. All I can do is to be open and honest with you and with myself, about what I'm doing, thinking, and feeling.

So, I'll just wish you the best, and let you know that there will always be a special place in my heart reserved just for you. (letting her know that I'm not completely closed to the idea of reconciliation yet)

At this point, I'd give her a copy of the carefully prepared Plan B letter that I know you folks will help me with, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> And then one last comment...

If there's anything else you'd like to talk about, now's the time to do it. If not, I think it's time to go. [i](for me or for her or for both, depending on where we meet)

------------------------------------------------

So, as for the idea I want to focus on, what do you think?

As for the Plan B letter, we can work on that later, I hope. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Suuurree...reply while I'm typing up my long-winded post above! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Wow, I really see what you mean. I wonder if it's too late to salvage the discussion. Although, this was work-to-work email, and I'm not sure when she'll be leaving tonight (it's just before 4pm here). But I could try to follow up through personal email, that she seems to only check 3-4 times a week.

Then again, I should be seeing her tomorrow when I take the kids over to her mom's house. Maybe I could ask for a few minutes to POJA?

Hmm...work is coming to a close here, so my mind isn't as focused now, but I should be continuing this in an hour or two, once I get home.

Edit: removed lawyer talk <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ December 24, 2003, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: Uncomfortably Numb ]</small>

A 180 Man is calm, assured, confident. He doesn't need to spoil special days with relationship talks or talks about the future.

He lives in the NOW.

Think "Be Attractive" and women love a confident man. Very, very attractive. And out of reach as long as she's out of the relationship.

Hit her Friday with the financial issues, but holidays lock memories in a lot harder - so don't even think about going there.

Don't get yourself worked up.

Remember, Confidence!

Excellent thinking!

Nothing is going to be too different between tonight and Friday morning, so I'll just wait until then to send the follow-up to the discussion about "our talk".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by whippit:
<strong> here's what i know or can infer from your conversation:

1. she also thinks you both should talk
2. she's not going to want to talk about the same things you will want to talk about
3. that she's really trying to avoid the conversation if at all possible
4. you probably won't hear from her this weekend (see number 3)

i know it may sound like i'm a gloomy gus, but what she's saying is typical of fog speak and it's screaming loud and clear in her response to you:

"maybe this weekend depending on how/when I am working."

this one sentence gives her every single out she needs to put you off. it's the middle of a holiday week and she has no idea what her work schedule is? don't get me wrong, the possibility for this exists, but is it likely? i hope i'm waaaaay off base. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Holiday blues here for a minute...

Yea, re-reading all of this, thinking about it, and knowing her the way that I do, that's a very accurate assessment. It's kind of sad that this is the kind of relationship she and I have had for 7 years, and even now I still don't see those things for what they are.

I think I see what I'm stuck on. I just cannot wrap my mind around the thought process of the WS. For example, she's not going to want to talk about the same things I will, which I expect, and which would probably be along the lines of..."I don't love you anymore and I don't want to be married to you anymore."

Ok, that sucks, but that's life. However, that she's really trying to avoid the conversation if at all possible? I don't get it? Sure, I've got a fair amount of conflict avoider in me, but as long as I've known her, WW sure hasn't. But I can sure see why it'd be a sore subject.

So I agree that she probably doesn't have the same feelings that I do, and I agree that it looks like that she doesn't want to talk about it, or even deal with it for that matter. I just don't understand why?

If she feels like she doesn't want to be with me anymore, like she'd be better off emotionally without me, like she'd be better of financially without me (she'd get to keep her full paychecks, instead of letting me have more than half to help pay our bills), then why in the world would she want to drag this out any longer than she has to?

If she feels like she got such a better life waiting for her without me, why would she avoid moving on?

I can see some of the answers, from reading many different sources. It's just that I cannot comprehend the thought process that one would go through to arrive at these decisions. It's just completely foreign to me.

<small>[ December 25, 2003, 07:43 AM: Message edited by: Uncomfortably Numb ]</small>

Update Time:

Christmas went better than expected. The time with the kids was great, the food was great, the atmosphere with my parents was great, and best of all, they LOVED the gifts that they got from my parents and from "Mom & Dad" while over there. Even though I did all of the work in choosing, finding, buying, wrapping, and giving these gifts to them, I still put both names on them, just to keep the kids from worrying. I have no idea if my wife did the same with whatever she got them, but that's not my problem. They'll remember where they were and wo was there when they got these gifts, so they'll remember who they really got them from, no matter what the tag said.

As for the wife, bleh, who knows anymore. It was mentioned by her Ex that they were going up there later because my wife was making a nice Ham and stuff for supper. Well, me being the kind of person I am, I figured that'd be for sometime around 5 or 6 or 7pm, after the kids had finished at my parents and her mothers. Nope, that was wrong. The supper was actually during the time that the kids and I were with my parents.

So, my wife was thoughtful enough to make a nice Christmas meal, but she didn't share it with me (no biggie), or even HER OWN CHILDREN! Sad, very sad,and really kind of scary trying to figure out what thought process brought her to that decision.

So I saw her when I dropped the kids off at her mother's. I brought in her card and gift and set them by the tree, then said I needed to get going (so as not to wear out my welcome). So she gave me a warm hug, told me Merry Christmas, I hugged the kids goodbye, and she showed me to the door. At the door, she told me she'd let me know what was going on this weekend. I told I'd really appreciate that, because I really feel that it's important that we talk. She said that she agreed, and then I confirmed that she would be getting in touch with me today to make firm plans for this weekend to have our talk.

Meanwhile, as a side note, I see that between about 9pm last night and 8am this morning, she managed to put about 250 minutes on her cell phone. Whatever. But if she goes over the anytime minutes, I'll be contacting her to remind her that she's reached the limit, in case she didn't realize it, and ask her to please be very careful of using it on weekdays for the next 3 weeks. Then, if I see a big chunk of minutes added on, I'll talk to her again, to make sure she understands that its costing quite a bit for those extra minutes. If there's more after that, I call and have the phone number disabled effective immediately, even if I have to report the phone as stolen in order to do so.

So anyway, life goes on. Each day, I gain a little more self-respect and a little more distance from my wife, some days more than others. As for this weekend, if we ever do talk, I plan to mostly just try to keep my mouth shut and listen. There are so many questions whirling around in my head that I wouldn't even know where to start, so I'm hoping to just follow her lead while keeping control of my emotions.

Any suggestions on what, if any questions I should be ready to ask would really help. I listed some ideas above, but they may be too much right now.

My parents actually suggested starting with something simple and safe, like asking her "Are there any upcoming bills or expenses that I need to be aware of?" This would give me an idea of how honest she plans to be with me, since I'm aware of purchases she's made that haven't been discussed with me almost a week and several emails later.

<small>[ December 26, 2003, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Uncomfortably Numb ]</small>