UN,

I went to an attorney just for an initial *consultation about qusetions I had related to finances and divorce.It cost me only $180 and I got all my questions answered and I was also tols,that if at all possible,try to work out a separation of assets between you both BEFORE making anything legal.

If you do(i.e. legal separation),that can set up for you and your WW how things will go if you go to court.Many times you end up getting less than if you draw up a plan that suits you both leaving the court out of it temporarily.

That is what WH and I have done particularly since he is terrifed of spending huge amounts of $ in legal fees,so we have an "agreement" on how the money is divided(or rather how much he is giving ME!).lol

O

LOL

Yea. I suppose it couldn't hurt to just talk about it with her, and maybe just get some things hashed out between beforehand. If it never goes to court, no big deal. If it does, at least we've got something we can bring with us as an outline of what we might like to see happen with this stuff.

Stop it stop it stop it stop it stop it!!!!

Was that clear enough? STOP THINKING ABOUT DIVORCE.

Which of these wolves are you gonna feed, UN? Don't feed the divorce wolf if you don't want it to hang around! Do what you need to do, and if you want to meet with a lawyer to gather information, go for it. And then JUST DO what you feel you need to do to protect yourself.

Whatever it is that's driving your obsession with the finances, I doubt it's about your marriage and your wife at all. I suspect it has more to do with your OWN fears about being destitute. And you know what? That's not going to happen.

Look, lemme be blunt here. Someone already mentioned that a lawyer wants a retainer for major work. And they mentioned that the retainer is normally MUCH less than the work itself. Lemme make clear what we're talking about, here.

My laywer asked for a $1,000 retainer.

To date, I have spent more than $50,000. And I'm not done yet; we haven't even touched the financial stuff yet.

Now, compare those numbers to the amount of real money you're talking about. Do you REALLY want to bring a lawyer into this mess? Do you have enough in net assets that that makes any sense at all??????

It was worth it to me -- I was fighting to remain my daughter's parent -- but would I spend $50k to save my part of our assets? Heck no!

Edited to add: So when are you going to take some real action to get your assets protected? All this lawyer stuff is really about easing your pain, and you know what? Lawyers aren't good at that. If you want to ease your pain, get into Plan B and start going for long bike rides. It's cheaper, healthier, and MUCH more effective. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ December 30, 2003, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: Just J ]</small>

OMG! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Just j, have you REALLY spent that much already? EGADS! WHY SO MUCH? Nevermind,I'm sure it's personal but dang.And you're not even done yet?!

You must be a millionaire or something right?

I personally have found thinking about and researching D is helpful,it helps take off the shock if and when I actually go through with it.Kind of like prepping myself for what I feel will eventually come to pass so I am facing that fear.

O

Ok...ok..ok...you're right. It'd really be stupid to spend much money at all just to protect maybe $10-20,000 in net assets.

I'll do some work, and look at offering her the kind of separation she's been asking for. As for the bike rides, well, the high temp where I live hasn't gotten above about 45 degrees in over a month, so that's kind of out. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

But, after the new year, I'll be going up to the mountains every weekend to get some skiing in. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Octobergirl, that's what happens when you're trying to decide whether to pursue a landmark civil rights case. (In other words, there's no written law and no case law that covers your situation.) It takes huge amounts of research, lots of experts, and a whole pile of money. The amount I spent was on an out-of-court settlement. If we had gone to court, it could easily have ended up costing hundreds of thousands of dollars. If you want to read the summary it's in my current thread.

As for whether I'm wealthy or not? Not really, no, though I have a good job. Let's just say that my dad's home equity line of credit is now maxxed, and I'll be paying him back when I can over the next few years. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Cell Phone Update: I'm not making a big deal about this, I promise. I'm just sharing information to better explain some of my thoughts.
</font>

1. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I got an email notice that the password had been changed for online access to the account.</font></li>
2. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I got an email notice the the billing address had been changed.</font></li>
3. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I got an email notice that the email address had been changed.</font></li>
4. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I called as a result of these notices, to see what else was going on...</font></li>
5. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I found out that she had also changed the calling plan to one that costs twice as much, and has 5 times the number of "Anytime Minutes" as before.</font></li>
6. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I found out that she has not called the "CoFR" (change of financial responsibility) Department yet to have the account transferred into her name.</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
It looks like she's got a lot of minutes that she wants to cover (changing the calling plan), that she doesn't want me to know how many right now (changing the online password and email address), doesn't want me to know anything in the future (changing the billing address), but has not taken full financial responsibility yet.

I'm just watching carefully to protect myself, that's all, nothing more. I honestly would not have even thought about this if not for the fact the I received the 2nd and 3rd notices within the past 2 hours. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ December 30, 2003, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Uncomfortably Numb ]</small>

OH GEEZ! It just keeps getting better...

I know, I need to detach, Plan B, remove myself from her life and all that. Well...

She just spent as much money as what the airline ticket cost (yes...triple digits) to order some "adult toys and accessories", and once again, I'm paying for her fantasy fun doing whatever else with whomever else!

Gawd...this is just getting ridiculous. I mean seruiously. How many people would tolerate the spending of more than $1000 on travel and toys for the enhancement of their spouse's affairs?

un ... my friend, you have some choices here.

1. to continue participating in the drama
2. to stop participating in the drama

it sounds like you're a long way from choosing number 2.

take care of your business and just let go. it's simple. so what are you waiting for?

Wow! Toys, UN? You are a good man, a really good man.

Oh, the things that women may do, not knowing what they do.

Whippit,

I was reading some of your updates. Your story really seems unlike the norm. How are things going now? From what I can tell, your wife moved out but was very cordial and kind to you the whole while. For most of us, when the wife moved out it was accompanied with mean looks, sarcasm, hurtful words, and curses. Your wife actually asked you to stay with her the first night. Even if I was as kind and loving as Mother Theresa my wife would not have allowed me to help her move. So I am curious, how are things now? I did not read much of your story, save for the part of you helping her move. From reading that part alone, I am assuming that she is probably back at home now or you are living with her. How are things? Was your wife ever cruel?

Yep, toys and stuff. For adults only. If you're wondering what I'm talking about, you might do a web search for "slumber parties". Nuff' said.

UN,

With all due respect to the other posters,GET INTO PLAN B for heavens SAKE!

Just how much more time are you going to put into her fantasy??? Now we are talking toys and massive cell phone minutes,etc etc AD NAUSEUM.

Cmon,like I said several posts ago,you need to stop being a part of all that and get some distance here.

SET THOSE LIMITS

O

Edit: Anger was talking there.

But I'm meeting with my lawyer anyway. We'll see what happens after that.

<small>[ December 30, 2003, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: Uncomfortably Numb ]</small>

solon ... my experience with my wife was very much the norm. the fogbabble, the justification, the late nights out, etc. by the point she moved out we had moved waaaay beyond her cruelty and my floundering.

frankly, i cannot find the words to adequately describe the level of her bitterness toward me nor the words that describe how pathetic i was most of the time.

she moved out about a month after our d-day. by that point, the om was distancing himself from her (although not completely) and i had gotten pretty good at plan A and 180-ing.

in fact, when she came clean i already knew and had rehearsed in my head how i would handle it. it really shocked her. she was hurting and the only thing i wanted to do was make it stop.

that day, as we cried in each others arms, she told me that i was such an amazing friend. at that point i knew i had her as long as i did the right things. i still had a lot of work to do, but i was a lot further along than i thought i would be. yes, i was shocked at how deeply she had fallen ... captivated by the feeling of new love. but i also knew how strong old love is.

it wasn't always smooth sailing from there. about a week later, she snooped into some email i had exchanged with a friend -- my confidant. my words were angry and nasty and threatening toward the om. her father was visiting us at the time (the timing was impeccable, really) and i had considered telling him without him asking. she nearly packed her stuff that day.

i gotta run ... i'll try and add more later tonight.

UN,

Tolerance is to each his/her own yes but since you post here so frequently with updates and the need for advice,we have seen all that you are going through with the objectivity we are afforded here.That is why some people feel so strongly when they "hear" what others are going through.

Like you just said,your WW has *repeatedly put you in this position even after being so open and honest and caring and available....enough is enough right? Isn't that what you are feeling?

Incidentally,why are going to go for the "legal separation"? Are you REALLY prepared to start losing big amounts of money to a lawyer in addition to your WW? What happened to drafting a proposal to her based on what is suitable AND realistic to *you and WW first?

O

I've still got a few days to think about it...

I'm emotional...I'm angry...I've got parents who are ready to draft a check to cover the retainer, even if nothing comes of it...

I don't know. I guess I just feel like I don't have the strength to deal with it. Like I need to put it into soeone else's hands.

Whoa...wait a minute...then again...that's exactly the sort of things my wife had described as something that upset her. That it seemed like I usually leftit up to her to make decisions. Oddly enough, I thought I was being considerate, letting her decide things...letting her know that I value and trust her opinions. I guess if you do that too much though, it just becomes way too much pressure on the other person.

I'm thinking...I'm thinking...really I am...

I'm thinking of a non-binding written agreement for this "trial separation" and concurrent Plan B. It wouldn't hold up in court,but it'd give us something to refer to if someone didn't keep their promises, as opposed to the usual "You never said that!" junk.

Still thinking...

UN,

I have found that a great deal of my strength comes hand in hand with the anger so that is when I make a lot of my decisions.It is not the sort of anger that is rampant mind you but it is just enough to move me out of the passivity into some action.I am still very clear and sure what my motives are during and after that anger passes.

If your WW sees you as an indecisive person unwilling or unable to make decisions about anything,then how is she going to do any decision making? If she sees someone who is giving so much of themselves away,that is not attractive IMO.

One of you has to be the "parent" in this mess which means she needs to see that YOU are a strong enough man to stop the madness,at least for YOUR world.If all she sees is that you are just as confused or in pain or indecisive about all of this,she will not feel secure about you or about the situation.And then of course there is the basic necessity of going into Plan B for all the other stuff she is pulling.

I hope you won't be offended by this but it is very apparent that you are thinking TOO much and not taking the required action.As much as you are typing here,you can type a draft of plan B,make a list of how the bills will be paid and by whom and forward it or e-mail it or print it out and get it to her.You don't need a lawyer yet to do this step.Stop procrastinating. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

O

Yeah, what Octobergirl said!

I'm just so confused. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I spent a lot of time thinking last night. Not talking to family, or friends, or posting on message boards, but just thinking.

I don't feel like I love her anymore. I just don't. I don't feel like I want to be married to her anymore. I feel like the only thing making me hesitate is the fear of letting go, of being unmarried. But I just can't stand dealing with her anymore.

I spent a lot of time trying to recall my thoughts and feelings over the past many months, even years. Not what I've thought and felt in the shocking aftermath of discoveries, but what I thought and felt before that. I was ready to give up. I repeatedly thought about divorce. I didn't like my wife and I didn't want to be a part of this life anymore.

I cannot remember one, single, tiny little positive thing that has happened in our marriage since we took a long weekend this past March and took the kids to Disneyland. That's it. 9+ months of nothing but withdrawals from my Love Bank, and that followed by years of her taking more out than she was putting in.

As of three months ago, a couple of weeks before the first D-Day, my Love Bank was well into the negative range. Not just a low balance, but so negative that I just couldn't stand being around her, that I really started to feel hatred towards her.

Then D-Day hit, and I think I just went into shock. What has happened, what might I be losing, what might I have done? So for a while, during that shock, I was overwhelmed with emotions and loving feelings, trying desperately to cling to this sinking ship, for who knows what reasons.

But during all of that time, thre has still been nothing good. Not one single deposit has been made to my Love Bank in those 2+ months, yet every day seems to bring more and more and more withdrawals.

I feel like I should have learned about this stuff a long time ago, like I should have started Plan A a year or more ago, and like I should have gone into Plan B in June. That's when I really felt things start to crumble.

That's when the time came and went to join our family on a major trip that was essentially family reunions for everyone. Instead, she stayed home to "work", and to "spend time with the youngest", while I took the oldest half way across the country to see dozens of relatives spanning 5 generations. While we were gone, she didn't work any overtime, and the youngest spent the entire 8 days with other family, while my wife did, who knows what. But whatever it was, it was important enough for her to dismiss our families (her side too). Sadly, her only Grandfather, whom she would have seen if she'd have come along, died less than two weeks later. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Anyway, I just don't know if I want to be married to her stiil, or if I just don't want to be un-married.

To be continued...