<small>[ January 19, 2004, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: dumdum ]</small>

I don't think anyone can answer these questions but you.

What do you REALLY want? What are you willing to give up to get it? You can't have it both ways forever.

You have found your way to the MARRIAGEBUILDERS website and forum. If this is your intention, please by all means, stay and work this out. If your intention is to look for help to stay in your situation of having a wife and a girlfriend, then this probably isn't the best site for you.

You sound like you are ready to make a change...but it's up to you what that change will be.

to have a happy normal life...
one needs a path that extends happiness to others..which in is then returned tenfold back to you...
and walla!!
happiness....
.not some self centered path of your happiness only counts....

you will never be happy living a life of deceipt...hurting yourself, hhhhmmmm lets see who else do your actions hurt...
oh yes'
your wife..
your OW...
all innocent children involved....

are you for real?...
want real happiness?....
start living a honorable decent life then...
need to know how to do that...then keep posting..
keep seeking..
actions define us..
your actions are only of dishonor,
pain,
deceipt,

that is who you are...

none of those traits make a person happy...
you should cut her loose...and save her from you..the person you are today...
you should cut your wife loose...and save her from the person you are today...
OR
you could decide that the real truth is that you don't really like the person you are today...
and change and become the type of person who understands what real happiness is..and make changes to become that person..

you make a mockery of words like commitment
love
and
happiness...

too judgemental for you???
too harsh????

just remember you did ask...
ARK

Do you really need an answer?

I seperated before and almost divorced 2 times, but she never showed ANY effort to leave her live-in manfriend
So you want ot work on your marriage only necause she was not giving you her "all" in the affair?
Would you really want to be with someone who shows you they could lie to their partner? Especially when you would end up being another partner?

Read up on the links below.
and please don;t just run off cause as you have discovered, affairs aren't "easy".
or give me any reason to trust her.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> he said, stifling a laugh.

What does marriage mean to you?

Start by looking within.... and ask yourself some very hard questions .... like:

Who am I?

What principles guide me when I have to make decisions?

What does my honor, my word mean?

What do i want my life to look like in 10-15 years?

What gives my life meaning?

Am I an honest and respectful man with those I love?

Am I a selfish man?

Am I making choices I would respect in others?

yes, I agree with all of you, I should look at my part in this and only my part. I need to modify my behavior so as to not bring pain to anyone else. I need to examine every move I make, every thought, every feeling.

you are all correct

I should always ask "What kind of person am I, and more importantly, what kind am I becoming or do I want to be?"

do I want to be honest, true, loving, caring...
yes

then I need to take steps towards that by having integrity in my words, thoughts, actions

i realize now that I have 2 relationships, but I really have nothing, until I get real

dumdum

Do you have a real "self" that you love?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong> Would you really want to be with someone who shows you they could lie to their partner? Especially when you would end up being another partner?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Chris, I can't answer for dd, but I can say that my WW has indicated that she would answer yes. Amazining isn't it? She would chose a man who has cheated and lied to his wife, probably also lied to their marriage counselor, and broke his sacred marriage vows, rather than a loyal, loving and faithful husband.

I hope dd is smarter than my wife or at least is surrounded by less fog.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by dumdum:
but she never showed ANY effort to leave her live-in manfriend or give me any reason to trust her.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The above bolded font pretty much says it all, doesn't it Dum Dum?

<small>[ December 31, 2003, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

pepper,
you ask if I have a real self. Pretty deep question don't you think? Maybe you are asking if I have emotional intelligence? Or is it an insult? No "self" is all good or all bad. There is much, in fact, most about me that is a good, kind, and caring person. WSs also need understanding in order to get at the core reasons why they choose affairs over personal growth and conflict resolution within a marriage (even if it means ending the marriage). There may be psychological "booby traps" that cause a WS to escape their own problems or problems within the marriage. These questions are difficult to answer. Unless you are Freud or Jung, then I wonder why you ask that. I appreciate you input.

dd

dd ... pep's a straight shooter. i don't really want to speak for her. from what i know i can assume that the question is on the level and would figure the question to be valid.

as i read it she's asking whether you're able to identify the part of you that you love and measure against it an honest evaluation of who you appear to be. yes, it is a deep question. then again, aldultery and its effects on the people invvolved deserve such evaluation.

my friend, it does sound like you have some cognition of what she's asking. where we're all a little uncertain is what you're hoping to get from your queries.

to be fair, i'll be the first to tell you—explicitly—that you will be challenged here and not simply because you're a wayward spouse. while not apologizing for our treatment of ws's, we can be a difficult lot sometimes.

stick around and please try to accept stuff at face value.

Originally posted by dumdum:
pepper,
you ask if I have a real self. that you LOVE.... do you love yourself? What do you love about yourself?

I am of the opinion that many people who get themselves into the mental torture of an affair do so because they lack a clear picture of who they are ... and they try to find "a self" through the eyes of another.

It never works.

It's called a reflected sense of self.

If you really love yourself (I think) you don't get yourself into an affair because it hurts your self-image. What self-loving person whould choose to become a liar and a cheat?

I just wonder if you have ever thought about what you love about yourself.

Why do I ask? To get you to think outside the box of "which woman should I choose".... when I think a more appropriate question is "which self do I choose".

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by dumdum:
<strong> I am a WH and having trouble ending an affair. Today OW was mad at me because I didn't want to make an effort to see her, then she asked what our plan is about being together, and asked if I was leaving my wife...I seperated before and almost divorced 2 times, but she never showed ANY effort to leave her live-in manfriend or give me any reason to trust her. She hung up the phone on me.

Should I just cut her loose now and accept that she and I will never go anywhere, and really try to work on my marriage instead of fooling myself to believe I can have a marriage and an affair on the side, and have a happy/normal life? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Surely you jest. Why would you even consider marrying someone who will never be faithful to you? What she did to her current stud, she will do TO YOU. I suppose if you don't mind being married to someone who has no respect for the institution of marriage and is about as a loyal as an alley cat in heat, then you have your ideal partner!

No disrespect intended to alley cats. At least they have an excuse for their behavior, humans don't.

Please read what these people are saying, and understand that they really do care about the health of everyone's relationship, no matter which side of the "love triangle" they sit on.

You really do need to look at yourself, first and foremost. You need to be true to yourself, whatever that may be.Because until you can, you'll never be able to really be true to anyone else.

Just an opinion from someone who would like to see all marriages be happy and healthy and never have to suffer from this kind of disaster.

Best of luck to you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I need to modify my behavior so as to not bring pain to anyone else </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Once an affair is started, that is no longer possible. Tell your wife. Have your wife tell her man friend. Then, get on the path to recovery. Click on the link below.

<small>[ December 31, 2003, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by johnh39:
Have your wife tell her man friend. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">John,

The wife in this case does NOT have a man friend. The reference of a "man friend", I believe, is the OW's man friend.

Jo

<small>[ December 31, 2003, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

dum to the second power...

one of my biggest questions for you...is how do you even imagine the reality of engaging in a relationship with the OW...when neither of you have any idea how to do it...

honestly that's what I don't get...
relationships are all about nurturing the other...
supporting the other
being for the other...
and that nasty little vow they throw in there that is so sadly glossed over ...
cherishing one another...

neither of you are doing it right now...so how do you imagine suddenly doing it together...

do you have children...
do you really wish such pain on them...

how are you going to fix this?...
and that's not a challenge persay...
but what is it that needs fixed...
what is the state of your marriage...and what role are you playing in that...

ark

Your topic: "OW said "Will you leave wife for me?"

A response: "sure"

RE: Because you already have.

The questions you really s/b losing sleep over are the ones from your W.

<small>[ January 01, 2004, 12:16 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

Res: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> reference of a "man friend", I believe, is the OW's man friend. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly. DD's wife should tell the OW's man friend. An alternative would be for the OW's man friend to receive a copy of the NC letter the WH sends to the OW.