Hello Everyone,

Although I haven't posted in a while... i'm always lurking and reading.

Just an update... i am the FWS. I had a long term R with a guy and ended it a couple of months ago. Since that time, I have consistently tried the N/C rule, however... he has contacted me several times within the last month and especially around christmas time. I did breakdown and speak to him a couple of days before christmas...that was it. My husband and I have our ups and downs... I am still trying to get the feeling of being happy in love with him, and still working hard for that to happen. It's not easy, but i think it's been worth it.

This is a question that i'm posting for my sister. She was in a relationship with a man for the last 23 years, the last 20 living together and they have 3 kids together. Unfortunately (or fortunately) they NEVER married. Don't Ask! Well, a few months ago she started acting "Fogish"....staying out late, saying that she wasn't in love with her longterm boyfriend, saying that this isn't the life she wanted, etc...

Well, long story short... it came out that she was seeing someone and that this was the "Love" of her life. She was completely disrespectful to her longterm boyfriend and decided that she was through with him. Now, I will be the first to say that he wasn't the best partner a woman could have, he was, at times, visibly rude to her and he drank alot and sometimes flat out embarrased her in front of our family when we would visit. However, she stayed for 20+ years on her own will.

Once she decided she was through with him, he decided to move into the basement apartment and she stayed in the upstairs apartment. They have 3 kids together, the youngest being 12, the oldest both over 20 and out of the house. She was so "in love" with this OM, that she would have him say the night with her, not only while her X was living in the basement, but while her youngest was home. Her X was so upset with the fact that the OM was there when their son was home that they had a huge confrontation.

So now, she has decided to move out and get her own place.. which is probably for the best, but I can't help but feel that she is burning a lot of bridges in the interim. My mother is extremely disgusted at her behavior, Her oldest children are upset, her 21 yr old daughter is seeing a IC and is on anti-depressions, her youngest is acting out in the worse way in schools, even getting suspended for 10days...

I know that she is not married, however, 20+ years with someone has to count for something... I'm wondering if i should talk to her or just allow her to find her own way through the fog?

Thanks for any input and happy new year again to all!

Dear FG

Talk to your sister. You understand what she is going through and could possibly help her. Maybe her R with her long-term BF is over, but until she addresses what the issues are with him, she won't be able to move on - even if they both decide that they no longer want to be together.

Send her here, lend her SAA. Try to get her to understand that the way she is currently behaving (particualrly with regard to her children) is not responsible and she needs to stop and sort herself out.

As for your own lapses - well, it will make it harder each time. Write him a NC letter if you haven't already and mean it. It will set your recovery back with your H (who you truly seem to want to recover with), and is incredibly disrespectful to him. Tell him too you lapsed and work together to put it right.

Best wishes to you and yours.

Lisa

FG,

I recall posting to you but I don't recall all of the details of your situation. So I am going to ask you some questions, a few are going to sound harsh, but they really are meant for you to think and perhaps help your sister.

Let's start with the obvious. What is going on in your family? You have had a long term affair and she has lived with this guy over 20 years (could be considered married in many common law states), and then she heads out. Do you see any similarities??

If so perhaps those would be good things for you two to talk about. I don't know if your H knows about your affair, or if your sister does, but them knowing would be a good thing and would lend credence to anything you say to your sister.

However, I must warn you that you are about to find out what most BS's here learn, and perhaps your H has learned: When in the FOG they don't listen to anyone. It is highly unlikely that your sister will listen to you. Very likely you are going to just have to watch her crash and burn and hurt a lot of people in the process. It seems to be the way of things when affairs are concerned.

Before I offer any other suggestions remind me. Does your H know of your A? I have this feeling that I remember that he does not.

I won't proceed further, until I hear from you, because my other suggestions involve him and your (sort of brother in law).

I wish I could offer you great advice, but I suspect your sister is going to be very resistent your attempts at helping her.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong> FG,

I recall posting to you but I don't recall all of the details of your situation. So I am going to ask you some questions, a few are going to sound harsh, but they really are meant for you to think and perhaps help your sister.

Let's start with the obvious. What is going on in your family? You have had a long term affair and she has lived with this guy over 20 years (could be considered married in many common law states), and then she heads out. Do you see any similarities??

If so perhaps those would be good things for you two to talk about. I don't know if your H knows about your affair, or if your sister does, but them knowing would be a good thing and would lend credence to anything you say to your sister.

However, I must warn you that you are about to find out what most BS's here learn, and perhaps your H has learned: When in the FOG they don't listen to anyone. It is highly unlikely that your sister will listen to you. Very likely you are going to just have to watch her crash and burn and hurt a lot of people in the process. It seems to be the way of things when affairs are concerned.

Before I offer any other suggestions remind me. Does your H know of your A? I have this feeling that I remember that he does not.

I won't proceed further, until I hear from you, because my other suggestions involve him and your (sort of brother in law).

I wish I could offer you great advice, but I suspect your sister is going to be very resistent your attempts at helping her.

God Bless,

JL </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, I don't really see any similarities between my sisters situation and mine. With the exception of we have both been in relationships (not talking about affairs) for long periods of times, pre-adulthood. I have been with my husband since I was 15 yrs old and I am now 36.

Now on to answer your question about me telling my husband. In mid-november, my H found a card from the OM and he asked me directly about it. I answered YES I was involved with someone else, but that it was over and "I" asked if he wanted to know anything more about it... he didn't want intimate details, but did ask specific questions like dates and places... but didn't want to hear anything else. He asked was it over and I said yes. It was wierd b/c I was/am expecting him to ask more, but he doesn't. We have been struggling together as a couple to come together, but it hasn't been the easiest thing to do.

Like my sisters situation, my H isn't the easiest person in the world to live with... although he has never dis-respected me the way my sisters LTR partner did. We did MC for exactly 4 sessions in which the last session, he abrubtly stood up and left the counselors office because he felt he was being attacked and hasn't gone back since.

As far as my A, I said it was LT b/c i met the guy 6 years ago, we were involved for about a year, then decided that it wasn't a good thing.. he went on.. i went on... and he got in touch with me 4 yrs later (last year) and here we are again... saying good bye to each other (for ever)...

FG,

When reading your posts I cannot tell if you want your sister back with her LTR or NOT. You seem to hold a lot of resentment toward him, while it is your sister that is hurting him, and their children.

I was going to suggest that if your H had recovered from your affairs, that perhaps he could help your sisters LT partner by talking with him. I may be wrong but it seems to me the dynamics are not right.

You don't see any similarities???? Interesting! I sure do. But, I suppose if you cannot see it you will not be able to help her, IF she wants help.

I thought your comments about your H's reaction to the marriage counseling interesting. Have you ever talked with him about it? I am betting that he is pretty defensive (hence some of the issues you have with his behavior). If it is because of childhood issues, that may have been accentuated by you affair there are a few things you could do.

It may be that he feels defensive because he believes that your affair was HIS fault. Have you explained that he was NOT at fault for your decision to have affairs. He has responsibility for the marriage as you do, but NOT your affairs. Those are your failures.

I suspect if you will talk to him about what you feel about yourself, what help you need from him, and discuss the FUTURE, he may open up, and your recovery might be hastened.

I get the strong feeling that you have a lot of power in your relationship and you need to exercise it carefully and productively. I hope you have read the articles here, and perhaps the books Surviving an Affair, and His Needs Her Needs both by Harley.

FG, are you still feeling guilty? If so, have you discussed this with your H? You are still young and your marriage can be made into something special if you two will make the effort, but the effort doesn't have to be like lifting weights or working out. It can be relatively simple. Start talking, NOT complaining, but talking about yourself, him, the things you like about yourself and the things you don't like about yourself. Tell him what you like about him. Ask him what he doesn't like about himself.

FG, I don't know why I feel this, but I think you do have enormous power over your H, but you have chosen to not use it or use it in non constructive ways. If I am at all right you can change the dynamics of your marriage into one where both of you are happy.

I am guessing but I think your affairs have hit your H much deeper than you realize and that is why he has NOT discussed with you. He is afraid of his feelings, his failings, and his anger. You can defuse these things if you will do your homework.

Again, as for your sister, well she may listen to you, but I suspect not. You are very right she is burning bridges and she may have a real hard time rebuilding them, especially with her children.

Hope something I have said is of use to you.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

Actually, even though my B-I-L (for lack of a better phrase) can be a pain in the but.. i actually like him. He has been a consistent parent in his children (my nieces and nephews lives). He has a very close relationship with his daughter (the oldest) and he is very active in his kids lives.

Please do not take what i'm typing as resitment. I wouldn't be typing and replying here if i were not searching for answers for myself and whomever I may help indirectly.

In a way, you are right... I am the stronger person between my H and myself. I realize this and so do i. Trust me though... it is a position that i do not want... I'm always encourging him to take the lead or i give him areas where he can be the "Man" it somehow always comes back to me.

As far as my sister.... I may point her to this site (although i really can't see her coming here.. she's not exactly pc savy) and I actually purchased a book about self-empowerment for women (can't remember the title off-hand).. it has really nothing to do with relationships with other people, but more specifically with learning who you are and what you want out of life, some one gave it to me... and i got alot from it, so i gave it to her.

So thanks JL... and I hope i don't sound bitter or defensive to you...

FG,

Ok, given that this is the case, then permit to fly a few ideas by you.

The romantic in my wants to suggest you sit your Sis down, and explain to her what she is doing, and through your powers of pursuation (sp) convince her to return to BIL( I will use it as well) and her children, where they find happiness and live happily ever after.

Reality, you cannot do this, because she won't let you. So how can you help your sister? I think the best way to help her is to help her children, and one of the ways to help her children is to help your BIL. How? I can offer you some ideas, but they are a bit off the wall.

Have your H talk with him and support him or at least validate that he is a good father.

Send him to this site.

You talk with him or better with his children.

If you and your H can help his children by talking with them about this and offer comfort and support. They probably need to be told that they matter and are good people, especially the young one, who is at a VERY difficult age without all of this other nonsense. In short you and your H support your BIL by helping the children see that although their mother has had a cranial transplant, that they are not at fault, and that can be helpful to their father, but doing their best. Give them a place to talk and vent, just as you have done on this site.

In short, help the children and support your BIL.

Now, this may have another effect. I went back and read your previous posts. Are you still in the same situation with regard to your H?? If so, trying LOVING him. I mean the verb LOVE. You will find that you will rediscover your H.

Talk to your H about helping your BIL, discuss the dynamics of THEIR situation, what each of them may be thinking, what may have happened etc. Listen very carefully to your H's comments, and you will start to learn things. My guess is that he will talk about someone else, but by doing this he will open up to you. You will be able to figure out how to help your sis and BIL, but you may well learn how to help your marriage.

You see it was not the OM that was so attractive, it was the excitment of what you were doing, the feedback. I have noticed in my life, that women who lose a lot of weight, become somewhat fanatical, and judgemental about other peoples failings. They feel if they can do it, then everyone SHOULD do it, particularly the spouse.

If you want a good marriage, you need to decide to be happy. If you want your H to be more attractive to you, then use your power. You have failed at doing this. What do I mean? Let me offer you an example.

Let's say you want him to lose some weight, then offer him an incentive. Have sex with him, but suggest that if he lost a few pounds you would like it more because you could use a different???... position, go longer, whatever. Offer to exercise with him, discuss with him how the two of you could do this, reduce portions, reduce the amount of sweets, etc. In short become his partner and friend. As his self confidence and desire for you increases (yup do new things with him), you will see him changing. Buy him new clothes, quietly and gently start to upgrade him.

You see GF you have done what most young people do, if something isn't right you run or change. Instead of withholding UNTIL you feel like loving him or he becomes attractive, ENGAGE him deeply and LOVE him and he will volutarily start to work on these things. You have pulled back from him, run to the internet, run to other men, and nothing as really worked has it? What will work is move in close and engage him, not pull away from him. Touch him when you talk to him, put your hand on his, on his neck, whatever, then talk to him. You will see him melt.

Your power is there, but running just negates it.

If you are curious, both you and your sister started a serious relation very very young, and you both have cheated on your spouses. This suggest to me, childhood issues that your H had nothing to do with, AND that neither of you learned some of the necessary adult and coping skills.

You see your sis is running now, just as you did to the internet,neither of you have learned to use your power, so you end up frustrated. Your H will come around, but he needs your help, not orders, but team work to accomplish something (the happiness of both of you). It can be done.

As you admitted earlier, your H would stay by you no matter what, RIGHT NOW. But, it has hurt him to do so, so he backed off and let himself go. I would bet that he has felt you have not loved him for many years, and he feels that if things get tough, you will leave him. That does not provide much incentive for him to change because he feels he loses no matter what. He also sounds depressed. That can be addressed, but you moving closer will do some very very powerful things to him.

Think about it.

God Bless,

JL

PS: I forgot to address one thing. Yes, you are stronger in one sense ie you have the power to change the relationship, BUT he is clearly the stronger within the relationship. I doubt if he did what you did, that you would stick with him. I may be wrong, but strength is a funny thing. You need the strength of HIS commitment to the marriage to make it work, and he needs your strength via your love and affect on him to make the changes he needs to make.

What I am telling you is from a male perspective, but women connive, when there is no need. Most, men what their W's happy, and want their W's to want them in their lives. That need for your happiness is deeper than you think, and yes it is conveyed via sex, but it can be done others ways. Saying thank you when he does something. Telling him you admire something about him. FG, men want to be needed.

<small>[ January 02, 2004, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

Talk to your H about helping your BIL, discuss the dynamics of THEIR situation, what each of them may be thinking, what may have happened etc. Listen very carefully to your H's comments, and you will start to learn things. My guess is that he will talk about someone else, but by doing this he will open up to you. You will be able to figure out how to help your sis and BIL, but you may well learn how to help your marriage.

Wow... that's deep... really deep, I never considered that or even thought of the connection.

I can also appreciate your view on the other things that i share in common with my sister.

However, I do encourage my H to work out.. and NOT by nagging... because he used to do that to me when i was way overweight. As far as being intimate... it's like what comes first the chicken or the egg?? I do try to be intimate and at best, i end up faking it (i'm sorry and I HATE to say that)... i am not vain(sp?) or at least at don't think i am... I am far from perfect body wise.... and i don't expect him to be either... but he has shown no or very little concern about his appearance... and i have explained how important it is to me that he take better care of himself physically.....

PS: I forgot to address one thing. Yes, you are stronger in one sense ie you have the power to change the relationship, BUT he is clearly the stronger within the relationship. I doubt if he did what you did, that you would stick with him. I may be wrong, but strength is a funny thing. You need the strength of HIS commitment to the marriage to make it work, and he needs your strength via your love and affect on him to make the changes he needs to make.

Touche on that as well... I have already said TO HIM.. that if the shoe were on the other foot... if i would have been able to forgive him... his reply was simply that he loved me enough to do whatever it took...