I haven't posted for quite a while. I've been mostly on the prayer request forum but I thought I'd reach out to you others and see if I should continue with Plan A. The OW is out of the picture and my H keeps coming around to spend time with the kids. We have even had some alone times together quite often. He tells me that he wants us to be very good friends and be able to just hang out with each other without any expectations. We had a very long talk about our R on Friday and by the end of the coversation, he told me that I have him "thinking on some things." I will not see him again until Wednesday as he works these next couple of days. Question -- should I print out an EN questionnaire & then give it to him on Wed or would this be considered pushing the envelope?

I'd wait. Just the fact that he's thinking is progress. No need to rush it. Men generally like to be the pursuers, not the pursuees. He surely knows you are interested in a closer relationship, but I think you'll send him running for the hills if you try to make it so serious and committed so quickly. Men prefer to have fun in relationships, not work on them! Hook him on the fun first - show him a good time (without S/F of course.)
Have you mentioned the site? Have you mentioned the survey? When appropriate you might let him know you have access to some resources that the 2 of you could go over together. But I'd wait and let him initiate it. He'll be much more likely to address it honestly and willingly if he has agreed to it beforehand.

Just my 2 cents. You know him better than I of course, and you know the context of your discussion. I'm just the type that likes a man to come to me instead of vice versa.

It is important to let him know that you cannot be "just friends". He is your husband!! Your life partner! This is more sacred than friendship. My FWH did not finally commit to staying home until I made it clear that I would not just be his friend. If just a friend, that leaves him open to having relationships with other women.

SF with him is an OK thing during PLAN A. In fact, it is essential if that is an EN that is important to him. PLAN A is about meeting his ENs. Try to determine on your own what his primary needs are and begin focusing on meeting them. Do not push the questionnaire. It is considered a LB to be too pushy or demanding.

It seems that you need to read up more on the basics of PLAN A.

It also involves NO RELATIONSHIP TALK. JUST FUN as recommended by the other poster. And by all means meet the ENs whatever they may be. Make your claim on him sexually. Of course, use protection for safety. Remember he is your husband.

Also, I hate to ask you this but how can you be sure that the OW is out of the picture? Has he written a NC letter. You need some proof of this or he may be a cake-eater.

Hang in there!!!

<small>[ January 06, 2004, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Well, during our conversation, I had mentioned to him that I was going for IC. I just brought up the slight chance that he would go with me, he replied, No, that's your appointment. He was telling me the reasons of why he fell out of love with me and what has led us to this point. I asked him if he was happy in his "new" life and he said not yet but he was dealing with it. Both of us got off our chests what has been bothering us about these last 3 months, what we, individually, think the marriage broke down, and he repeatedly keeps telling me that he thinks it's too late to start over. He feels that being a couple again would be turning backward for him, not moving forward. He is, "getting on" as he describes it. He says he has no feelings left for me (which I doubt - you can't spend 15 yrs of your life with someone and not feel ANYTHING except mother of kids), and wants us to eventually develop a friendship that will last. He thinks we "make better friends" than lovers. He feels that we are getting along better now that we're living separately than when we were together. I have to agree with him. Although it pains me to see him leave after he picks up the kids, I know we needed this time apart to realize what it was we each did wrong in the this marriage. I really feel that God is having us become friends first to build a solid relationship from there.

Mimi, you said something interesting. You say to tell him that I can't be just friends with him (which I have done) but at the same time, you recommend having fun with him. This would mean us hanging around together so I could show him how much I've changed and that we do have more in common than what he realizes. I have asked him not to date anyone, and he reluctantly agreed (at least until after the divorce-he says).

The reason I think the R with the OW is over is basically because of his behavior lately. When this all first happened, he was hardly ever around, skipped seeing the kids so he could spend time with OW and wouldn't talk about it at all. He says to "spare my feelings". Now, since he thinks we are developing a really good friendship, he has been open with me in telling me what he felt he saw in her, what things they had in common, and he tells me of when she calls him and when he goes down to see her. I mentioned to him that he hardly talks about his R anymore, and he made it clear that he finally figured out that he was "being played". He told me, "Go ahead and laugh. Gloat. Tell me I told you so. I know you want to." I didn't do any of that. I simply told him, "I'm sorry to hear things aren't working out the way you want them to."

We have been intimate twice since he's been gone. Once, I seduced him (strictly as a ploy to try to "win" him back - I know, big mistake) and the 2nd time he seduced me. He says he still finds me attractive and sexy, and I see him looking at me a lot when he's around.

I believe we are making progress because 3 months ago, he was heavily involved with OW, would hardly talk to me, wouldn't stay at the house for more than 15 minutes at a time, to pick up kids and leave, and was very cold towards me. Since then, especially since closer to Christmas, he is very soft, sweet, tells me a lot that he cares what happens to me, and doesn't want to hurt me anymore (this was a big no-no when he first left-he just didn't care who he hurt). I was getting a lot of "counseling will NEVER help - I'm in love with HER" whereas now he is saying, "if we go to counseling, then what about....this and this.... There's a big difference now and he consistently tells me that he has nothing to hide anymore. He feels "free". He doesn't care if I get mad at something he says because he can just walk out and go to his room instead of sticking around so therefore, there's no reason to lie anymore.

I feel that I cannot ask him to write a NC letter to OW as he has not totally agreed yet to work on the marriage. When this happens, then I feel it would be appropriate to ask certain things of him but the way it stands now, I believe that would be considered a demand from his perspective and I don't think LB at this point would be beneficial.

Yvette, it seems to me that all the signs are positive. I would suggest that you just keep doing what you're doing. Make your time w ith him as fun as you possibly can, don't push him, and let him seduce you. Heck, encourage him to seduce you! You've known him for years; use that knowledge as much as you can. And... find other ways for him to feel connected to you and your family in the ways that -he- understands.

The only reason to go to Plan B is if YOU are hurting very badly. So how are you holding up through all this?

I have my good days and bad days. There are some days that I feel so strong, confident & peaceful and I know that it's from reading the Bible, talking to God and letting God come into my presence. Then there are days that I feel totally helpless, like God has abandoned me (sorry God) and all I do is cry.

My H does stay away when I'm upset cause he feels that if he shows his face, it will just make me more upset because he's the reason I'm crying. Sort of considerate, but I think he just doesn't want to face what he's caused. I did tell him that I didn't want to be around him because I couldn't be "just friends" and he agreed to come see the kids when I wasn't around, but then the next day I told him to forget about it. Yes, I know, changing my mind all the time isn't helping me. But, I'd rather get 5 minutes with him than nothing at all. It works out most of the time and when he's here, we laugh and carry on, and Christmas Eve he spent the night so the kids could wake up with him Christmas morning. That was nice. He stayed on the 3rd floor in our spare bed but we all had a good time.

I am getting used to being by myself when the kids leave. I'm actually enjoying the time reading, listening to music, spending time with my friends & family by myself. But sometimes it gets so lonely without my kids here. Saturday they were gone ALL day from 1:30 till 11:00 at night and I wouldn't have known what to do with myself except my BIL was here doing his wash so he kept me company.

I'm just taking it one day at a time. I think that's my new theme song - One Day at a Time Sweet Jesus.

Standing:

You are doing a great job with PLAN A. Read up on the MB Basics of PLAN A, meeting your WH's ENs including Sexual Fulfillment, No Relationship talk, No Lovebusting such as making demands, etc. Work on Perfecting this!!! Make it YOUR PLAN. Do this for as long as possible.

It is OK for you to seduce him if that's what he likes. That has been a part of my PLAN A from the start. The people who know me here can attest to my SF incidents with my FWH.

I'm sorry that I don't have much time tonight but you seem to be doing great. Perfecting YOUR PLAN is essential!!!!

A suggestion--perhaps not too MB, but may be effective. He has it all his way right now. Friendship with you, SF if either of you feels like it and his "freedom." Maybe it would be a good idea to not be so available, not be so willing to show him how much you want him back? Join some clubs, take some classes, work out, whatever. Don't just sit around and wait for him to bring the kids back or whatever. Don't be available when he wants to spend time with you.

Give it some thought and maybe try something a little different. Obviously he still has feelings for you, cares about you and is attracted to you. You may just need to seem a bit like you are moving "Forward" like he is trying to do. I don't think he will be comfortable with that one bit! Check out divorcebusting.com for some other suggestions.

Please follow the MB principles! You are being successful in your PLAN A. Do not veer off course and do DIVORCEBUSTING which is not recommended by the Harleys.

The divorcebusting site was the first site I ever looked at when this first happened. I got the Divorce Remedy book and started to follow those principles. I do glance through it now and again. It kept stressing to work on ME, not concentrate on what HE was doing or saying, and when I started to do that, I discovered a lot of things about myself that I didn't like and wanted to change. In turn, I could see what I did to contribute to the marriage getting to this point and started to implement those changes so I could be a better person. Worked like a charm. I feel real good about who I am. And I keep telling myself that I am a child of God and He loves me anyway, despite all my character flaws and imperfections. Helped quite a great deal.

Then I discovered this site. I really like the prayer request forum. Very spiritual and very helpful. I recommend it if you haven't checked it out. You can get a lot more in touch with God and it really helps you to have other prayer warriors on your side.

I know it may sound as if my H has his cake and is eating it too, but he does have certain boundaries that I set. Like he's not allowed to come to any more family gatherings. We tried that New Year's Day and it ended in disaster. My son ended up crying because he felt like he was being forced to choose between us of who he wanted to spend the day with. Not going to have that again. He WILL have certain times on holidays when he picks them up and drops them off and NO hanging around MY family. It's too painful for ALL of us. And, he's not allowed to "hang out" when I have couple friends over. I tried that too. I thought I would be able to have him hang out with my sister & her boyfriend and me & watch a movie but it was a chic flick and when I looked over at my sister & her boyfriend, they were cuddling and I felt horrible because I couldn't do that with my H. So, no more of that. Hanging out just the two of us is fine right now, but other couples, NO WAY! It is WAY too awkward!

Standing:

I encourage you to study the PLAN A principles and focus on developing a PLAN. What are your WH's ENs that you need to focus on? Are you LBing? Are you sure that he is no longer having contact with the OW? Why are you not living together? Why are you buying this dating concept with him? I don't think reconciliation is possible for you if you play along with this concept. I recommend that you decide whether or not you are going to work on being married or not?

I am also concerned about you saying what he is ALLOWED to do. Are you making rules for him or are you making these decisions together. You don't seem to be grasping the essence of Marriage. This is MARRIAGEBUILDERS!!!!!

STANDING don't buy into crazy, foggish thinking, considering yourself a girfriend. At this time in your life, how can you sit around and socialize with people? Isn't this a traumatic time for you? Shouldn't your primary focus be on getting your family back together? I'm not sure where you are coming from?

From the talks we have had about why he left the home, I have determined what his ENs are.

Plan A: Avoid angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, selfish demands, annoying behavior and dishonesty (i.e. Love Busters!) at all costs. (page 75 of SAA)...and at the same time, if your spouse would let the you, you should try to meet your spouse's most important Emotional Needs (page 77 of SAA) that is...
1. Affection
2. Sexual Fulfillment
3. Conversation
4. Recreational Companionship
5. Honesty and Openness
6. An Attractive Spouse
7. Financial Support
8. Domestic Support
9. Family Commitment
10. Admiration

Affection - Never has been a big EN for him. Give each other a hug when we see each other. He does not want anything else right now. If I intiate more than that, it scares him and pushes him away.
SF - Big EN for him. We have been intimate twice. Once my initiation, once his.
Conversation - Moderate EN. When he drops the children off, he usually stays for a couple more hours to talk about our days that we had. We usually laugh in our conversations. I do a lot of listening.
Recreational Companionship - This is a big EN for him but he has not asked me to go along anywhere with him yet. When I ask him if I could go along, he says no. Excuse me, we did go Christmas shopping together - his idea.
Honesty & Openness - Still not sure if this is a big EN for him. We reveal to each other what we have been feeling & how certain situations make us feel. He tells me he's trying to be as honest as he can now because there is no point in lying anymore.
Attractive Spouse - Big EN. I have been doing things to improve my appearance and make sure I always look attractive each day. This is a personal issue I've always wanted to improve and I do this for ME not HIM. In turn though, he does take notice and tells me I look good that day.
Financial Support - Not a big EN. He's always been the type to provide for his family. Right now, he's not in a position to do that. He's only working part-time hours & this makes him feel inadequate to provide for his children the way he should.
Domestic Support - Big EN. He likes a house that is tidy and children that are well taken care of. I am providing both.
Family Committment - Big EN. His kids are his everything. We both take time with our children by ourselves. When I would like to do something as a family, he says no - this is his time with his kids.
Admiration - Big EN. He needs to feel appreciated and I am showing him I appreciate him with the little things he does do for us like fix the computer.

As far as avoiding all LBs, I did have an angry outburst the other day, but I went to him and apologized for that & I was forgiven. He softened his heart toward me again. I am not making selfish demands on him - on NY day he wanted to take the kids with him. He came to my sister's house where we were, & thought he could stay there & just watch us play games until the kids were ready to go. My oldest son felt torn because although he wanted to see his father & spend time with him, he also wanted to stay & play games with us. My H was in the room & did not see the look on this child's face. He did not see the tears coming down his cheeks because of his dilemma. I'm the one who had to comfort him & calm him down. So I brought it up to my H the next day that this occurred & we needed to find a way for it not to occur again. We both do not want our children crying & upset because of all this. We both agreed it would be best for him to have a certain time when he's getting them, the children decide on their own if they're going with, and then he takes whoever is going instead of waiting around until they decide.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> STANDING don't buy into crazy, foggish thinking, considering yourself a girfriend. At this time in your life, how can you sit around and socialize with people? Isn't this a traumatic time for you? Shouldn't your primary focus be on getting your family back together? I'm not sure where you are coming from?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not consider myself a girlfriend, I consider myself a WIFE. He does not want it that way right now. Yes, this is a traumatic situation for me and my children. My family comes over to spend time with me and the kids. To enjoy a movie together. While my focus is on getting my family back together, I need to continue enjoying life and not sit around feeling sorry for myself. My sister and her boyfriend came to visit me for Christmas. Christmas night, when my H brought the children back, my D asked him to stay & watch a movie that we were watching. He did. It was very painful to see him sitting there, knowing that I couldn't hold him and cuddle the way my sister and her boyfriend were. I brought this to my H attention, and he AGREED with me that it wasn't a good idea to be there, hanging around, while I had couple-friends over. I'm not sure what you're suggesting I do.

Great!! Great!! Great!!

You are on the right track with studying the ENs closely. That is the answer. Believe me! Keep going with your PLAN A as long as possible. Doing exactly what you need to do in the ENs department. I am known for being an overachiever but what I did was try to be tops in all of the ENs regardless of whether I thought the needs were important to my WH or not. Turns out that was a good idea because I was wrong about some of my previous assumptions. I did not know until now how important AFFECTION is to my FWH. Since we met 30 years ago, I never initiated public displays of AFFECTION. Turns out he likes this now. I don't know if he always liked it, if it's a new need or what. I know that he craves it.

I also learned that whatever he used to like when we started dating. He continues to like. I remember Steve H. telling me to do the same things that I used to do when we first met and started dating. That has been key!

I misunderstood the stuff about entertaining with your family. I'm sorry! It seems like you are doing GREAT!!!!

<small>[ January 07, 2004, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Standing, you're doing very well with two of the four key principles of Plan A (meeting needs, and ending punishing behaviors).

But what about the other two? They're very, very important in Plan A. Sure, there's no OW at this point, but it still applies. Are you:

- Calmly, courteously, and respectfully telling your husband how much him being gone hurts you? A single sentence EVERY SINGLE DAY is all you need. And then a change of subject. For example, when he's getting ready to leave, you say quietly, "I miss you when you're not here. I'd like you to come home." And then you take a deep breath, stand up, and smile as you chat him towards the door.

- Calmly, courteously, and respectfully ask the rest of the world for their support for your marriage. "I love WH and hope that he will come home. I know we've had a very hard time, and anything you can do to support us, I would very much appreciate it."

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Calmly, courteously, and respectfully telling your husband how much him being gone hurts you? A single sentence EVERY SINGLE DAY is all you need. And then a change of subject. For example, when he's getting ready to leave, you say quietly, "I miss you when you're not here. I'd like you to come home." And then you take a deep breath, stand up, and smile as you chat him towards the door.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not do this every day, but I do tell him this quite often. He replies, I know. We are giving each other hugs before he leaves though. Major improvement since October.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Calmly, courteously, and respectfully ask the rest of the world for their support for your marriage. "I love WH and hope that he will come home. I know we've had a very hard time, and anything you can do to support us, I would very much appreciate it."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have already stressed this to my family and friends that no matter WHAT my WH is doing or saying, I love him unconditionally & WILL take him back REGARDLESS. They totally understand & I have asked them to accept him with open arms as well when he does come home. They have agreed to do this. They stress to me that I will not be able to welcome him back with open arms without conditions. My response to them is that I know it's going to be a very long, hard road that we will travel, but the point is that we will be ON the road, not stuck out in traffic so to speak. And with God leading us down the road, we will ALWAYS come out victorious.

Thanks for the encouragement. God bless you today.

Standing, I just wanted to jump in since you had kind words for me on the other post. My situation, though only EA, is as absurd as anything else going on around here. But if I took everything I read here to heart I would have probably shot my W for what she is doing to me. But the reality is I am very much in love with her and will give this everything I have until, God forbid, my love runs out. So I agree that you should continue to Plan A as long as your H allows you and as long as it doesn't eat you up. For whatever reason I am very sympathetic to the Wanderer. I know many as I'm sure you do. They aren't evil people they simply made a mistake that they are having a very difficult time fixing.
You are the best judge of your situation but know very well that your H is NOT doing this to hurt you. He is also hurting. Hang in there and visit often.

Walking

Thanks Walking. Believe me, I'm in it for the long haul! Christ never said the road was easy! I never realized how far away from God I was until all this took place. I believe my H when he says he didn't make a mistake by leaving. I think we both needed this time to grow as individuals & become the people we need to be for God and for each other. Although my H is far from God right now, I know if he listens closely, he will hear God calling him back to repentance.

Thanks for the kind words. It's rare to find that on these secular boards. Have you visited the Prayer Request forum? We're always looking for prayer warriors to uplift each other & pray for each other. Come join us if you haven't already! God bless.

Yvette, this is far from the "typical" secular board; there's a ton of support to go around here, and it's a darned good thing, too, or I would've lost my mind a few times in the last year. (Good grief, I started reading this stuff more than a year ago...)

Thanks for the blessings; I could use a ton of them today. Then again, were I to count them, I'd know that I had many, many of them. It's just my own annoyed pissiness getting in the way that makes me not see 'em.

Well, okay, so my wayward partner's being the queen of idiots, but mostly it's my own annoyed pissiness. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

JustJ,

I didn't mean that in a negative way. I'm not trying to criticize anyone. I hope you understand. This board was one of the first things I turned to when this all first happened, & I weighed the advice given, tried to match things up with scripture and that's how I have based my decisions on how to handle certain situations that arise through this whole mess. It might not be exactly the way Plan A is supposed to be implemented, but I take the whole thing, modify it to MY personal circumstance, and go from there. As situations arise, I read over scripture, pray for how to handle, read some advice from here and try to get through the best way I can. I leave basically all of it up to God. He is the one who is seeing me through all of this. He is the one who removed the OW from the scenario. He is the one who gives me strength to endure everything I have to go through.

You're right about your blessings. Sometimes we can't see them when we're smack dab in the middle of a trial, but if we reflect, we will see the many blessings God has bestowed upon us and we can smile even in the midst of turmoil.

How about this point of view?

I believe that the LORD brought MB into my life. I have followed the MB principles as closely as possible. Not doing it my way but HIS WAY. HE wanted me to do it the MB's Way.

I think we need to be careful that it is not the LORD that veers us off of our course from following the MB principles. Satan, evil forces, the forces of darkness do not like marriage and will use any means possible to destroy marriages.