Melody, you've always been so helpful and supportive to me that I had to challenge you on your position. I was at a dinner show a while back and they pulled a couple from the audience congratulating them on being married 35 years. When they were asked how they made it the wife made refererence to a giver and a taker. Immediately I knew without a shadow of a doubt that the husband had had an affair. Only once you're in this club can you possibly know the pain. That's why I don't think we can speculate on the mindset of the wanderer. Until you walk a mile in their shoes.

God gave us ALL free will......the WS DOES KNOW what they are doing.....to say otherwise is just stupid.

the WS DOES KNOW what they are doing
Usually they are doing it for themselves, not doing it to hurt others.
Just like you buying food at the grocery store is simply that. It is not you ignoring the homeless guy on the street corner.

.....to say otherwise is just stupid.
Why the need to come here and insult people?

My FWH acknowledges that it came to the point when he made the decision to proceed with having a PA with the OW. He states that he remembers the very day when he made that disastrous step. He is extremely sorry about it. I appreciate his acknowledgement of this because I know that he can now exercise the choice not to do it anymore. If the WS sees their behavior as being out of control, how can they make the necessary steps to insure that it does not happen again.

I sometimes even find myself thinking that he is taking too much responsibility because he seems to be downplaying the influence of the OW. He wants to see himself as powerful over her temptations, though, so that he can continue to combat his addiction to her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong> the WS DOES KNOW what they are doing
Usually they are doing it for themselves, not doing it to hurt others.
Just like you buying food at the grocery store is simply that. It is not you ignoring the homeless guy on the street corner.

.....to say otherwise is just stupid.
Why the need to come here and insult people? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First of all.....calm down, noone is insulting anyone in particular.......I just dont understand where the confusion is. People have been having affairs since the beginning of time practically, and YOU show me where the BS doesnt get hurt in any of these cases. That is like someone armed walking into a store to rob it without the intention to hurt anyone......
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

This thread is very interesting. Teacher, I really suggest you pray for your answer. God WILL direct you to what you should do. You mention several feelings - like, love & desire. These are what they are - feelings. Feelings can always come back. We are called to a higher spiritual realm than this. Love is a choice. We, as Christians, CHOOSE to love Christ. Why is it not the same for our spouses? It seems so easy to just disconnect from our spouses because they hurt us. To choose not to love them anymore. Because we don't want to be hurt anymore. Because we don't want to feel lousy anymore. Because we're not sure if we can trust anymore. But is the Christian walk easy? No. It's not. It's the roughest road anyone can travel. It's not easy to love those that hurt us. It's not easy to trust those that betray us. But this is what we are all called to do. Love those who do not love us back and pray for those who have hurt us and persecuted us. What we have to ask ourselves is, What makes us any better than those who walked out of their marriages or had affairs? All I can say is this,
1.) Do not have any other Gods besides me - Guilty. Putting my marriage above God. Not trusting Him to lead us. Trying to do it all on our own.
2.) No idols - Guilty. Without realizing it, I was actually worshipping my marriage & my husband & not worshipping the one, true God.
3.) Don't misuse God's name - Guilty. Unless you use His name for anything but holiness, you are breaking this commandment.
4.) Remember the Sabbath, Keep it holy - Guilty. How many of us actually worship Him on His holy day instead of choosing to do something else more "fun"?
5.) Honor your father & mother - How many of us actually honor our parents all the time? Respect them? HOw many have raised their voice or bad-mouthed their parents behind their backs?
6.) Don't murder - Jesus said, Whoever turns his back on his brother has already committed murder IN HIS HEART.
7.) Don't commit adultery - Jesus said, Whoever just looks at another person in lust has committed adultery already in HIS HEART.
8.) Don't steal - Ever take a clippy home from work or used an envelope from work without asking permission or used the postage machine for your own personal mail?
9.) Don't give false testimony against your neighbor (don't lie) - HOw many of us have told the tiniest white lie to spare someone's feelings?
10.) Don't covet your neighbor's house (don't be jealous) - How many of us wish we could have what someone else has no matter how small?

The point I'm making here is that we ALL have broken SOMETHING on this list. What makes us any better than our spouses who have committed the physical act of adultery? NOTHING! Was Christ sent here just to call one certain type of sinner? No, he was called for ALL of us because why? Because we're ALL sinners. Not ONE of us, NOT ONE, is any guiltier of a greater sin than another. And what does our gracious God do? He FORGIVES us. For all our shortcomings, for all our wrong choices, for all the hurts WE have caused someone else and what does he ask us to do? All he asks is that we do the same for each other. It doesn't matter if it's a husband or wife that betrayed you, a neighbor that talks about you behind your back, your daughter or son that just called you a whole bunch of names. When He says EVERYONE, He means EVERYONE.

Maybe it would help you if you got a little prayer support from our prayer warriors over in the Prayer Request forum. We love the company & lift each other up daily as we walk on this long, narrow road we're all on. We hope to see you over there. Keep your chin up and remember to pray for your answers. God WILL speak to you if you open up your heart, read His word and listen.

Walking,

You seem to have a very good perspective on things. Really in touch with your spirituality. Would love to talk with you some more.

Blessings to you all,

People have been having affairs since the beginning of time practically, and YOU show me where the BS doesnt get hurt in any of these cases.
I never wrote the the bs doesn't get hurt. It may be the result of an affair but it is almost never the intent of the affair.
I even gave an example. Here is another example.
You must enjoy killing cows because you eat steak.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong> People have been having affairs since the beginning of time practically, and YOU show me where the BS doesnt get hurt in any of these cases.
I never wrote the the bs doesn't get hurt. It may be the result of an affair but it is almost never the intent of the affair.
I even gave an example. Here is another example.
You must enjoy killing cows because you eat steak. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I totally and completely disagree......If you have an affair on your spouse, you KNOW it is going to hurt them......whether you admit it to yourself or not. I also gave an example.

Here is another......if you commit a crime, whether you intend to not hurt someone or not......you are going to get in trouble. Everyone, and I mean everyone knows that one. What is the difference? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I remember reading on this site or by a poster that Dr. Harley has said that if his wife ever cheated on him, their marriage would be over.

HOWEVER, he has worked with many couples that wanted to salvage their relationship, and that is how MarriageBuilders started.

I for one would not condemn you for not wanting to stay married. But is there more to the story? Has it been bad for awhile? In my case our M was shaky, but there was something still there to save (children mostly).

Standing For M and Chris CA123, I didn't take the stupid comment personally, nor did I intend to incite anyone who is very, very hurt. But this is certainly not a black and white issue. If you thought my comment was stupid you will think I am a complete [censored] when you see my situation. My WW is presently on a weekly team with OM in a bar league. She continues EA with phone calls which is excruciating. I have fought with her about the phone calls though I except the league situation.
I go to marriage councilling by myself and even on occassion have the bar team in my home and entertain them. I have been unable in two years to end the "freindship". But I have always held the key; simply have an affair and watch my W lose 20 lbs. 6 mos worth of sleep and the OM would never even cross her mind again. But to do that would mean I intentionally hurt my W. How could I live with that. I know in my heart she has no idea what she is doing to me. How can she? It never happened to her. Perhaps I am making a fuzzy point with EA vs. PA. But give yourself some time to deal with this. It's not black and white. I would never have believed I would be able to entertain the man who slept with my W. And the kicker; he doesn't know I know. Bring it on. Still love my W and await the day she finds me.

Walking

Please actually read the text.

I totally and completely disagree......If you have an affair on your spouse, you KNOW it is going to hurt them.
So you believe the intent of the affair is always to hurt the spouse?

Here is another......if you commit a crime, whether you intend to not hurt someone or not......you are going to get in trouble.
So if one robs a bank, the intent is to get arrested?

There is a difference in
- KNOWING if you have an affair it will hurt your spouse
and
- having an affair for the PURPOSE of hurting your spouse

<small>[ January 08, 2004, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Exactly my point, Jazzeygirl. Everyone is different. Well said.

No, my H did not INTEND to hurt me. Yes, I got hurt. But didn't I hurt him when I was giving him all those LBs? Didn't I push him away & cause part of this? By the time our WS realizes what destruction has taken place, it usually is too late to correct it. Someone ended up getting hurt. Chris is so right in that we do not INTEND to hurt others. We simply do by our actions or words and then later, when reflected upon, we realize what we have done & truly regret saying or doing it. Sometimes we get so wrapped up into ourselves, our own needs, that we rarely see how certain actions or words will affect someone else until it's too late. The damage is done. The best the hurt person can do is forgive them (with a lot of prayer) and deal with the situation as best as possible with the help of God.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong>

There is a difference in
- KNOWING if you have an affair it will hurt your spouse
and
- having an affair for the PURPOSE of hurting your spouse </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Amen. And this was the point of my previous post, that just because a WS doesn't INTEND to hurt their spouse, they KNOW it will.

The reason I had made that point was because some seemed to be making excuses for the WS by claiming the WS "didn't intend" to harm the WS. The intention - or lack thereof - can't erase the truth that the WS KNEW it would hurt the BS. A lack of intent justifies nothing.

I don't think that the WS is thinking about much more of anything than their own selfish needs when they choose to have an affair.

Teacher, I will just say again that I do hope you get some guidance from a Christian source and just know that you will be perfectly within your rights if you decide top end the marriage. Don't let anyone make you feel guilty and please don't make a hasty decision.

ml...The reason I had made that point was because some seemed to be making excuses for the WS by claiming the WS "didn't intend" to harm the WS. The intention - or lack thereof - can't erase the truth that the WS KNEW it would hurt the BS. A lack of intent justifies nothing.

sufdb...There is more to this issue than that. In highly dysfunctional marriages it is quite possible that a person realizing they are becoming involved in an affair believes the bs will not care at all, but will instead view the affair as more ammunition to beat up the stbws with. If the ws actually understood/believed the bs would be hurt they may have modified their behavior. It is presumptious to define an affair as an automatic injury to a bs. A bs may very well be relieved, as it makes it easier to leave a marriage they don't want to be in (and have been saying so loudly for a long time, for example).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sufdb:


sufdb...There is more to this issue than that. In highly dysfunctional marriages it is quite possible that a person realizing they are becoming involved in an affair believes the bs will not care at all, but will instead view the affair as more ammunition to beat up the stbws with. If the ws actually understood/believed the bs would be hurt they may have modified their behavior. It is presumptious to define an affair as an automatic injury to a bs. A bs may very well be relieved, as it makes it easier to leave a marriage they don't want to be in (and have been saying so loudly for a long time, for example). [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree that could describe the rare case, but I am not making a generalization based on an exception, but the rule. A rationally thinking person in a somewhat average marriage knows that an affair will hurt their spouse. Thats not presumptuous at all to make such a statement.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
[[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree that could describe the rare case, but I am not making a generalization based on an exception, but the rule. A rationally thinking person in a somewhat average marriage knows that an affair will hurt their spouse. Thats not presumptuous at all to make such a statement. [/QB][/QUOTE]


EXACTLY my point. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks for the input everyone. I didn't mean to cause an arguement though. Are there any BS whose WH are continuing to work in the same building as OW? Are there any WS that have continued working close to OP? I'm noticing that I cannot reconnect at all emotionally with WH because of the possibility of him seeing her and fires being reignited. I held on too long during the 3 year EA and I can't go through it again. WH doesn't want to change jobs w/o a committment from me to make this marriage work. How can I commit when I still can't even find my heart? Is it too much for me to require him to find a new job first? Does anyone have any wise cousel about what has/has not worked in this situation? Thanks!