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Joined: Nov 2003
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Ughh! Just another update to this never ending saga....

Last night I received a letter from a company I had wanted to work for. I had to take classes for 6 weeks and have been on a waiting list for 3 years. It was very rigorous as I also worked a 3rd shift job during the time the classes met.
The letter basically told me I had excellent training- blah blah blah, but that I did
not meet the needs of the company.

I was crushed. I admittedly had been hoping that with things in my marriage the way they were that I could get this job and I could leave. I told my husband that I knew the application had not looked as solid as others because I have spent many years child rearing. I alluded to the fact I felt it had all been a waste in light of recent occurences.

He sat down with me later and began to talk with me about my disappointment and I was encouraged. Things quickly turned sour though. The more I tried to express myself, the more he talked about HIMSELF. He told me he's sure the letter wrecked my plans to get the coveted GRUNT job and make decent enough maoney to get out and way from him.

He let the floodgates open and told me he NEVER wanted our children. That every day he had to fight the hate deep within himself to come home to a situation that is not at all what he wanted. He let me know his blood pressure is so high from us that his hands shake during the day.

Keep in mind I had one child when he married me. He told me that because he lost his religious fellowship from associating with me (he was a Jehovah's Witness and I was studying to become baptized)he decided to marry me just to try to make things right for himself again.

He accuses me of becoming pregnant on purpose to keep him and blames me and our children for his unhappiness. He says he is not going to work on my marriage because it is not his or our marriage.

He told me I am a weak and wishy washy person and he regrets the day he met me. He told me I have made no changes to myself the whole time we have been married and he will either die with great relief or stay until he "broke down" and couldn't take it anymore.

I told him I am worried about him and that I am here for him if he needs me. He told me he needs no one and nothing from me.

I also mentioned that he talks as though I am not involved at all in this. As though I have no choice and must always settle for what he offers.

He told me he felt he had crash landed in some other life and he prayed every day to wake up to the way things were before me.

Ok, so my husband resents our children, blames me for taking away his perfect life before me, married me to do "the right thing", thinks of me as a weak disgusting person and has blood pressure so high he is shaking and he WILL NOT see a doctor. He may aslo be seeing the childless woman of his dreams who he "knew way before me". Of whom I know nothing about- not even a name.

WHY am I still here? I am terrified of being left with the children I suppose. He tells me he'd like to wake up and have all of us disappear.
Quite frankly, he thinks he could not stand seeing me hating him when he was gloriously happy with another childless woman with a career and bold personality.

I wonder why that might make me angry? Why should he be able to walk away from his entire family and start over? What gives him the right to decide in mid-game he wants OUT. We will all suffer from his selfishness. (end of vent)

Is there any hope in this situation? Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions?

This morning he stayed late in bed and held me a little. I told him I felt sad about what happened last night. I sucked up my courage and told him I loved him and not to worry....
He told me he was hungry..
UGHHHHHH!!!! Nice to know. I would have rather heard something else- it has been 17 months since I've heard "I love you"

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Forgot to mention...
He has a business trip coming up the week after next. He will be going to Illinois for an entire week. I'm not feeling good about this as all of our problems started after he returned from a trip to New Mexico almost 2 years ago.

Things were going great (so I thought) until he came home with the ILYBINILWY sppech.

I am very scared. He told me maybe he should "give me a reason" to hate him. Meaning he should sleep with someone else...

The joy and love never ends.

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I'don't know about your situation.

However, I do know that you can't believe or buy anything that a WH says while he is in the fog. He's just saying anything he can to justify his behavior. It needs to go in one ear out the other.

BLAH! BLAH! BLAH!

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would not your admittance...and his knowledge of you getting the job...leading to you leaving the marriage...been just a huge negative omen to live under...

Where are you in this...
can you call it recovery if you are actively seeking employment to leave him....

Are you in recovery..
did you believe you were in recovery...

and what role in recovery were you in seeking seeking a job with the goal of leaving..

those are my first questions....
second part..it's really hard to read what you wrote....what he said about your children...

the protector in me...would have sent out of the house last night...how dare he speak of hate of his own children..
no fear in the world would let me tolerate that in my children's lives....

So I hope that you are in serious counselling alone in which you seriously look at why you are seeking love from a person who is

playing the victim card to the hilt... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

It is time for you to decide you own value and worth seperate the person your husband is right now...

Time for you to find value within yourself with out his presence...
do you want to still be in the exact same spot you are in right this minute...next month...next year...
because you can only change you...

This man states he hates his children...and you go to him like a puppy that keeps getting kicked to tell a person you love them...who has no idea, concept, or realistic image of what love even means.....and then say he hasn't said he loved you for x number of months...

his love is of no value to you...

wonder why that might make me angry? Why should he be able to walk away from his entire family and start over? What gives him the right to decide in mid-game he wants OUT. We will all suffer from his selfishness. (end of vent)

You are suffering from his selfishness with him there right now....

I would tell you to kick him out...go to the strictess plan B....
imagine a day without the stress and tension of him being in your home...
imagine a day with just focusing on the children...and not worrying about what kind of assinine mood he is in..
imagine a day without looking at someone standing in your kitchen who speaks so much hate and evil...

I think there is lots of hope for you in plan B...
I think that untill you stand alone and face all these things you think you are so afraid..you will realize that the fear of living with such a person is way more scarier than not...

He has tons and tons and tons of work to do on himself....

in the most marraige builders way in my opinion...
set him free TODAY.....
stop the madness now...
he is not healthy...

ARK

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have you asked him if he ever heard of a condom or a vasectomy????

he went on to have 3 more children with you, does he not know unprotected sex results in children?

dont listen to what he says...he is in the fog.

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Wifey,

I'm so sorry to hear about the job letter. Something like that is always disappointing, but you'd pinned a lot of hopes on it and it had meaning to you beyond just a job. Hard news to receive, I'm sure.

You packed a lot into that post of yours! I'm muddling around in my own quagmire and there are a couple of similarities between our situations. Sometimes it makes a person feel better to know they aren't the only one going through something.

It's kind of weird that he'd say the letter probably wrecked your plans to get away from him, and then also to say he feels like he's landed in some other life and just waits for it to end one day. It seems to me that if he REALLY wanted away from you, he'd BE away from you. But he's hanging around, for whatever reason. Is it possible that his attacks (grunt job, etc.) are his way of expressing his insecurity and fears that you'll leave? That he's somehow not good enough?

As far as the remarks about the children, I *know* how bad that hurts - you probably feel deceived (after all, he helped get those bundles of joy into the world) and hurt. My H said similar things, though thankfully not as harshly. I think my H (and possibly yours) was trying to find something to blame for his unhappiness, and the kids are an easy target. Children change *everything* and represent a loss of freedom. It's easy to target them (and believe what you're saying is true) when you feel trapped in your life or marriage. So I wouldn't focus on his resentment of the *children* necessarily, but try to get out of his words that he feels trapped right now, for whatever reason.

There is a lot of blaming going on, and it's not helping. When the conversations turn from allowing you to express yourself to being him talking about HIMSELF, do you think you could find it in you to listen, not to his words, but to the emotions behind them? This is REALLY hard to do, and I admit it's nigh impossible for me to do in a similar situation, but I see that it might help. I've marked the following passage for myself in a book I'm currently reading; perhaps it is applicable to your situation, too. It is explainin how to listen:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Listen attentively to what your partner is saying. Don't interrupt.
Listen for the feelings that lie beneath your partner's words
Look directly at your partner
Be aware of what your body is saying to the other person - for example, nodding agreement or disagreemnt.
Resist the temptation to answer back.
Stop after a few minutes to put into your own words what your partner is saying. Even take a stab at telling them what you imagine they might be feeling.
Draw your partner out as completely as you can. Lose yourself in your partner's feelings. Put yourself completely in your partner's shoes.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course, this book also expects that your partner is following the guidelines of how to speak effectively, which your H is not. But something's got to give, and it really doesn't matter who takes that first step, as long as some of the hostility and animosity is alleviated.

Hmm. I just read ark^^'s post and there is a lot of merit in plan B, too. If you decide you need a break to preserve your sanity and emotional health, then disregard my post and don't beat yourself up about it.

I feel for you.

<small>[ January 09, 2004, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: turtlehead ]</small>

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Would not your admittance...and his knowledge of you getting the job...leading to you leaving the marriage...been just a huge negative omen to live under...

Ark- I embarked on the journey to get this job years ago. I did it then to help us move into a better home and supplement the family income. Recently, I had held out hope that if this would come through I might be Ok financially if he were to leave. The last 1.5 years is the absolute opposite of the husband he was before.


Where are you in this...
can you call it recovery if you are actively seeking employment to leave him....


I would never call us in recovery. We are just together right now. I am not seeking employment to leave him as stated above. It was just a comfort to me to think the financial security would be there.

So I hope that you are in serious counselling alone in which you seriously look at why you are seeking love from a person who is

playing the victim card to the hilt...


I am calling my local shelter today for advice and free counseling on mental abuse. It is a hard thing for me to do. It is hard for me to see that this is abuse as I have always lived this way.

Time for you to find value within yourself with out his presence...
do you want to still be in the exact same spot you are in right this minute...next month...next year...
because you can only change you...


It is very hard to see myself as “worthy”. When you have heard the things I stated above for so long, you begin to doubt that what you perceive is reality is.

….
he hasn't said he loved you for x number of months...

his love is of no value to you...


I know I am struggling with past issues here. I was abandoned as a child by both parents and I know I think if I can get him to love me I will in some way make past wrongs right. I have always yearned for love and affection from those who are not emotionally or physically available. This really hurts me.


I think there is lots of hope for you in plan B...
I think that untill you stand alone and face all these things you think you are so afraid..you will realize that the fear of living with such a person is way more scarier than not...


I will admit to you the following:
Financially it would devastate us to maintain separate households. We have two mortgages and need to unload our other property. We just bought a new home.
I am afraid I will not have enough money to support four children.

Gradually over time I have lost friendships and have no family AT ALL for support. I feel I am not emotionally stable enough to deal with four children and the dissolution of my marriage alone.

My children are in a wonderful school system now. I cannot afford this house, so if I move it will be back into the city and my children hated it there. They do seem happy as most of this goes on when they are in bed for the night.

I have not driven- except for a little bit. I had health problems after the birth of my second daughter (I was not allowed to get my license for years after due to seizures) Maybe the helter can help me with this. I have no support in helping me to learn. I cannot emphasize this enough. I am truly alone in this except for people on a message board.

He has tons and tons and tons of work to do on himself....

Do you feel he is mentally ill? Don’t laugh at my question, I really am not sure….
I also want to state that I do not go to him like a puppy. I am offended by that.
Turtlehead stated that maybe he is insecure in losing me and I see that in him. I try to be the one to make the first move- offer encouragement. I do mostly let him alone though when he is in a foul mood. I do want him to know I still care and have not given up on him. I think he desperately wants to hear this from me and I think he is every bit as afraid as I am. We are just dealing with it differently.

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believe me when I say that I am not one to throw around the abuse label...but when someone tells someone they hate their children...and the next morning the spouse even after hearing this tell the spouse they said "I love you"...in hopes of getting an 'I love you back" ..the hairs on the back of my neck stand up...
and red warning flags are everywhere...

Call the shelter...
you need a plan...
long term/short term goals that empower you...
and strengthen you to not live in fear....
seek out and build a support group..
if you have any healthy family members ...re-establish contact and build from there...

time is on your side...if you can tolerate being there...then each day you can work on change and or leaving...

small steps one at a time...the empower you..

tiny triumphs...
you need to grow and change and believe in yourself...and your growing and changing will either be the catalyst that has your husband get with the program and seek out serenity in his world...or your growth will leave him in the dust...but so be it...it will be better than what it now....

seek out a support group in a local church...

It is very hard to see myself as “worthy”. When you have heard the things I stated above for so long, you begin to doubt that what you perceive is reality is.

well get over it... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ...Cause I am here to tell you you are worthy...as the mom of four children you hold great value and worth in this universe...no matter what he says or doesn't say...

feel your worth and seek it inside of you....

Maya Angelo tells the story of being invited to a professors home while in college...while surrounded by highly educated people..they were reading out loud different passages from different books...and Maya recalls feeling very nervous being around such affluent people and very insecure...
She was given some passage to read in which the only words were...

God loves me....
so she read that outloud to all these people...
and her professor tells her to read it again out loud...
so she did...but felt stupid...
and he told her to read it again and again...and she said she felt really really dumb...and ignorant and like she was being picked on...
so she said it one more time outloud...
God loves me...
then after moments of quiet...her professor softly told her....
now you believe it...and don't forget it...

Maya recalls that that one moment is the one inwhich that changed her to gather the strength she needed to face all challenges...

wifey....you must believe in you....regardless of his actions good or bad...or it will never work..

living in fear is not the way to live...

do I think he is mentally ill...
I think he is mentally cruel..and mental illness is no excuse...for his treatment of you...
it is irrevelevant...for only you can change and work on you....
wifey I mean no offense or blame...but is it realistic to have someone tell you they hate their children...and while granted there is fog talk...there is also just downright cruel and ingnorant talk...
and things that should never be spoken...
how do you seek love from someone that hates their children?
It's an honest question based on what you said....

He tells you horrible things...and you answer back with concern ....
and while I am not telling you to challenge and powerstruggle with his ramblings...do not reward them with your "love"....

You have no boundaries or limits because you are so afraid...
and this cycle will just continue...
assume he will not change and if you don't then nothing will change...

I mean you go to him like a puppy always seeking his love...no matter how creul his words and or actions...

ARK

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I want to clarify that my H never said he hates the children. He just told me he never wanted to have this many and that he resents them. What he hates is the decisions he has made to put him in this situation.

He did tell me he loved the children and me- I asked him and he said of course I do.

I would not stay with someone who hated my children.

I called the domestic violence place and I am going on Tuesday to a support group.

I will not respond to my husband's anger with anger and hate in return. I will stay and work for things to be better as long as I can and at least until the financial pressure is off.

I truly believe his anger is fear based and that he is expressing himself through it. I think he says the worst possible things because he is also afraid that things will not be better. I know he believes in not getting his hopes up to be disappointed. He has told me no one will ever exploit him or abandon him again. This to me speaks volumes of his fear.

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WWP, No one is asking you to respond to anger with anger. They are suggesting you respond with firmness and independence.

In my humble opinion, it sounds like he is fostering your dependence and resenting it at the same time. Because you ARE dependent, you are stuck in the position of hoping that he will be the answer, hoping that he will turn around.

Whatever happens, you gotta get free. You have to have your own income -- even if it's from scrubbing toilets. You sound afraid and daunted by a future without him -- start getting used to it. It's a very real possibility. We all hope with you that he will turn around -- but it doesn't look like begging and hoping will do it. So you have to prepare for the worst-case scenario, and at least not be terrified of it.

You have to protect your own mental health and that of your kids. (You might start by finding a more empowering tag than "wittlewifeypoo"!) You have to start husbanding your own strengths. It might drive him away, but then, he's going away anyway at this point.

Just gave this advice to someone elsewhere on the boards who is in Plan B, but it would work for you, too:

"The usual advice: get a hair cut. Get them all cut. Take surfing lessons.

Invite three old friends you haven't seen for awhile out to lunch. Have a big party at your house to exorcise its ghosts (I had 30 over Christmas Eve.) Have a goal to make one new friend each week.

Take up yoga. Or martial arts. Or swim laps.

Read biographies of strong tough women who made it alone for inspiration -- George Sand, Indira Gandhi, Golda Meir, Emily Dickinson.

Chances are strong you won't be able to keep the candle burning. Mine went out some time ago. But I'm feeling great -- just like I lost 190 pounds of ugly fat. Him."

I loved my own H very deeply, but he's filed for divorce anyway so he can live with a crazy woman. But I'm doing great! You can get there too -- that way, no matter what he does, you'll be okay. Looking at him and waiting for him to break through the fog will drive you crazy. You have to work on you.

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Ok- I have read all of the advice and I have come up with a plan.........

As I said, Tuesday I am going to join a support group. I have also made an appointment for IC.

I am going to ask my sister to help me drive the week H is way. I need to get my license and I think she will help me.

I am going to get interested in some minor redecorating around here to keep me busy.

I am also going to go through with my college plans- even though H was resentful and discouraging. I can still start this month IF I hurry.

I will spend more time with my children.

this shopuld be ample to keep me busy in addition to 2 jobs.

Should I do anything different with my H? Ignore him? Talk to him? Be distant? Not worry about him?

If he mentions what I am doing and seems upset by it, should I respond to his anger. (Every time I do things for me he gets very angry.)

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Definitely get your license! Sounds like a great plan. Include some fun stuff, too! Friends and parties.

It definitely sounds like he needs you to be a cripple. When you learn to walk, he is likely to be resentful and angry.

Lots of ways you could respond. Be genuinely confused by his anger: "Gee, sweetie! I thought you'd be happy I'm learning to drive! It will take such a load off you!" "But this makes me happier! Don't you want me to be happy!" Be cheerful, be upbeat. Laugh gently when he is angry about your changes.

You've got to live. This is about survival.

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Dear wife,
One of the red flags that indicate a controlling person is that they think they know who you are and what you are worth and why you do things more than you do yourself. They try to define the reality of other people for them, ignoring their wishes and concerns. They also tend to manage to isolate their significant others from friends and family member. It is harder to control someone who has a lot of support people around to give them reality checks.
An incredible book that is really helping me deal with my WH is "Controlling People" by Patricia Evans. I highly recommend it. I found it at the public library.

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Your H's excuses sound sort of familar. Anger directed at you and the children in any form is really coming from him about him. I have heard similar. His anger will continue to do damage to all around him unless HE gets ahold of it.

What should you and your children do? IMHO, since he is displaying these tendencies even sometimes, you and your family need to be in a safe place. I know that when my WS let his anger take him away from his faith (relationship with God), his family, friends and his values he learned he did not solve his problems. Yes, he blamed me, blamed our M, blamed the stress of even having 1 child. All talk. In the end he had to admit the blame was square on his shoulders. He even told others he had a good W. Who were those others? Co-workers and the OW. U C, the WS had lost his relationship with God and his friends. Even his relationship with his parents. U know what? His family and friends miss him dearly. I know, they tell me. Due to the decision the WS made back @ d/d, for now part of his recovery is regaining my forgiveness, God's forgiveness and then the restoration of the M, his personal R w/God and that of his friends and family. Like a good plan B, this is important to a real recovery.

I always try to remember these wise words:
"True, no discipline seems for the present to be joyous, but grievous, yet afterward to those who have been trained by it it yields peaceable fruit, namely, righteousness."

U C, I understand where your H has taken himself and it is not good for himself or his family. He may not be able to see it yet, but he will. Just a matter of when. The question is how long are you willing to wait or move forward.

Right now you need to realize that his anger does not make you feel safe and your family's safety needs to be more important than his displaced anger. Even if it is only sometimes. Why? Because it only takes once to lose it and lose it all.

take care,
L.


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