My FWH had 2 PA and 1 EA in the past twelve years. I had no clue he was involved with other woman. I was never suspicious.

After he confessed his affairs, I read a lot, including articles written on the signs of cheating, to see what I had missed. None of the signs applied.

I found this website -- happyaffair.com -- it has tips on how men can cheat and get away with it. I see my H's As written all over this site. My H denies reading any info about As before his but I swear he could have submitted nearly every cheating tip on that website.

Are some people just naturally better at hiding their activities than others? Do they just instinctively know what to do (or not do)? My H had no guilt during his As. Was this because he was pretty sure he would never get caught?

Hi TFG,
Yes, some people are MUCH better. Enneagram 3's, for an example.. your H (I think I remember that?). I'm a 3.

I thought of all of those and more. Deception is natural and quite easy for me. My H leaves my Christmas presents at other peoples houses, because I used to find them, unwrap and rewrap them every year, no guilt (I've quit that). I could get away with pretty much anything, IF I Wanted To...

My H says that I can be the most devious, sneaky person in the world, and I dont even try. (He says with admiration in his voice, because I use my powers for good, not evil <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ... helping out the little guy kind of stuff).

My H doesnt know anything I dont want him to know. Now, in the last year, I've been working on this, and I DO want him to know stuff, but that doesnt change that fact. Your H has to want to change, because he wants to live a clean life. Because he Wants a clean conscience. IMHO... Good luck - Dru

TFG,

This site [Happy Affair.com] is one of THE most disgusting sites I've ever visited.

It's so blantantly full of deception and helpful betrayal trickery tips. Disturbing that not only someone created the site, but that people actually contribute tips to it.

At one point they even use the analogy about using complete and utter denial when caught, as did O.J. Simpson. <shutter> That says volumes about what it's REALLY all about.

Jo

<small>[ January 09, 2004, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

Yes, Dru, my H is an Enneagram 3. Since D-day, he hasn't talked much. Doesn't like to answer questions. I feel this distance between us because I know he is not opening up to me. It is getting increasingly uncomfortable between us.

He is in IC but I think he plans to stop. I suspect he has not been totally honest with C about his As so don't know if it is helping or not. My H won't discuss his counseling sessions with me.

Hi TfG,
Can you leave an enneagram book open to 3's for him to read...? I thought I was the only person in the world who felt like I did, only to find that there was a whole group of us dealing with self-deception. It was very enlightening for me to read about me...

btw: I'd bet that GUILT is one of thoes feelings he's denying. If he opens up, he'd have to deal with a LOT of painful things... it's scary - Dru

I have always known when a spouse was cheating. I knew it instinctively before I knew it factually.

ML
I honestly had no suspicions. If you looked at the happyaffair website, you would see what he did to prevent disclosure. He never acted any differently towards me and arranged his meetings with OW in a way that he didn't have to tell too many lies. He mostly kept secrets and lied by omission. He admits he was a cakeman and didn't want the affairs to end. He said he wanted them, pursued them, and enjoyed them.

He appears remorseful and has apologized but can't give me one good reason to believe anything he says. He just wants me to take the risk and stay in the marriage. Since he normally doesn't talk unless it is about work, our sons, or the weather, we are stuck.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TFG wrote:
He appears remorseful and has apologized but can't give me one good reason to believe anything he says. He just wants me to take the risk and stay in the marriage. Since he normally doesn't talk unless it is about work, our sons, or the weather, we are stuck.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'd say to believe only his actions then, and not his words.

Jo

For Too Far Gone,
The book I was telling you about on the other thread (I'll try to find it) is Personality Types: using the Enneagram for Self-Discovery, by Don Riso and Russ Hudson.

I liked this book (I have 5 Enneagram books) because it lists for each type the Levels of Development and Path to Integration (meaning How screwed up ARE you, and What to work on to get better).

As a 3, it really was right on... Level 7 is called the Dishonest Opportunist, and from the little I've read about your H, this seems close... The big thing is 3's must feel (whether real or not) that they are Winners... Does your H feel his A's make him a Winner? Does a Sucessful Man in his book have a W and Mistresses? Getting all you can, is a 3 mentality.

I know reading this about myself really shook me.

3's cant 'appear' to others as manipulative, so make him back up his words... if he is really remorseful, tell him you need him to help YOU (make this about YOU), and ask him to read about unhealthy 3's. "I know you dont want me walking around thinking you are playing me again, how about a LITTLE active work on our marriage before we put this to rest". Little can be a month of IC, MC, some reading...

I'm telling you, if you dont get him to open up, you'll be back here, again, with A #4... Dont stop till you know you are safe, either way.... Good luck - Dru

That site is one of the most discusting sites ive ever seen. I felt guilty just for looking at it breifly! Im a WS and i messed up horribly, how can people make websites justifying something so painful. goodness. Sorry for chiming in, i just saw that website addy and thought it was a joke at first, unfortunatly its not a complete joke but its sad.
At the time i was having EA online i never felt guilt, i felt "These people arent real, just little boxes on a screen that tell me what i want to hear." The webcam was just a plug into a big box, the people werent real but they filled my needs, they told me what i wanted to hear, i told them what they wanted to hear, we fed off of each other but to me it was just a screen, a box, not a person, now i feel a bit differently. But i didnt feel guilt because i didnt feel it was a danger to my marraige <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> and i feel stupid now for not seeing it. I hid it, so apparently i knew it wasnt OK but yet i carried on anyway, not even considering my husbands feelings other then thinknig "its no big deal to me so theres no reason he should know" If only i had thought more into it i would have never done the things i did, but at the time it was so easy. But yes, it was easy for me to hide my activities, my husband had no idea, now i keep a keylogger on here so he can read everything i do, so far so good! It keeps me on track and also reassures him because i cant get into it, only he can and its always on. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Sorry to ramble, i guess what im saying is yes, it is easyer for some to do things without guilt and get away with it better then others, no matter how wrong it is, its like they dont even know its wrong and think nothing of it until its too late <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ January 11, 2004, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: Rhonda Kay ]</small>

Rhonda Kay,

I for one completely agree with you. The site sucks; both in content and in concept. What it is -- and all it is -- is a poorly disguised front for some related porn sites.

__JG

RK:

I, too, am a WS who made a horrible mistake; my opinion of that website and the logic behind my own online EA are right in line with your train of thought. Spooky.

So glad to read a post from another WS who is shocked and offended by that ridiculous site. I feel like the pot calling the kettle black, but there you have it. Heck, half the "tips" were typed by borderline illiterates.

RK, hope to see many more posts from you, as I'm intrigued by your A and recovery progress.