About a week from now will be 2 year anniversary of D-day #1. I am not worried about it, however I say this because I am STILL working on forgiving.

Now this is something I REALLY want to be able to do, because I find that I am spending WAY TOO MUCH time thinking about the ludicrousity and complete idiocy of my divorce and my ex's choices. I have perseverated about the lunacy that seems inherant to her every move. I have gone over every detail and reasoning so many times, that I find myself running through it faster and faster.

When I catch myself, I work on stopping, RE-forgiving, and praying... both for myself as well as her. But I have found that even after 2 years and countless accounts of anger and hatred directed at me by her, I still find myself being angry. It is driving me insane. In my head I have forgiven her. But I still find that my heart aches and seeths at the mere thought of the choices she has made, mostly lying to her friends in order to look more 'pure' than she has ever been in her life.

I see the pain that my children are having with the wrenching of their family and I see them saying "She thinks this is a GOOD thing???" as they speak of her.

Perhaps it is the continuous stupidity in our shared custody that causes me to be repeatedly exposed to this sort of thing. But whatever it is, I know that I am not nearly as healed as I would like to be given the time and the understanding about just who she has become.

In some ways, I think that I am fighting myself. Sometimes I just want to hold her and try to protect her from all this. But I find that SHE is the one that is causing all this and that in order to protect her, I would have to protect her from herself. I did that for 14 years, but just lost that ability towards the end. My energy diminished and her MLC escalated to the point that I no longer was capable of keeping her happy.

Now I see the resentment that I feel, but don't have a clue about what to do at this point. I feel as though I have come to a place in which I have definitely healed as much as possible under the circumstances, but I have not healed as much as I need. I know that there is more... I HOPE there is more, but I have been unable to break this forgiveness barrier in my heart. I do forgive her in my head, but I can still feel the resentment in my heart. I try and try... however I don't know what else to try to see if something else will help.

I went out and bought a few books this evening about forgiveness. I hope that one of them will have some helpful thoughts that will allow me to work through this plateau. I know that I will be better... at least I pray I will. But I have reached a point that has become so frustrating that nothing I seem to do has been helping.

I would appreciate any suggestions you could give. I know the forgiveness is for me. I want it for me as well as her. One thing... she has never said she was sorry. I know this seems petty, and has no real bearing upon what I do. But the thought that she just is so pent up and self centered... so egotistical and foolish really seems to bother me. I don't want her to beg. I would not be sincere. But even just a nod that her choices have wrought some terrible damage to our family. Just something that says she has some clue about what she did. I know... this is probably what is holding me back... and I try NOT to tag forgiveness to her actions. But it is just so hard.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Formerly Confused:
<strong> .... In my head I have forgiven her. But I still find that my heart aches and seeths at the mere thought of the choices she has made, mostly lying to her friends in order to look more 'pure' than she has ever been in her life.

I see the pain that my children are having with the wrenching of their family and I see them saying "She thinks this is a GOOD thing???" as they speak of her..... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you answered your own question when you said your head knows but your heart aches. So when your mind and heart are not in sync, the healing stifles.

It takes time. Your timeframe shows that you still have a ways to go. Don't despair. Pray for a clear mind and a calm heart. It will come and maybe at the least expected time.

For me it was after I realized that despite all the pain and suffering, finding my own right to happiness was within my grasp. I was not a cast off from society as the OW and WS would have me believe. The WS would never make that claim out loud but his actions said it loud and clear. The OW on the other hand just couldn't shut up about how bad I was. Anyway, it took some time but I clearly remember the morning I woke up and realized my mind and heart were in sync.

It was still a hard road and an uphill battle..... it went well over 2 1/2 years since then but you know what? I learned to survive. Whether my H came back or not no longer mattered as much. My survival instincts took over and I learned to move forward.

Be patient. If your aren't, learn it. It will save your soul. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Remember: Good things can come to those who wait. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

take care,
L.

"The longest journey anyone is ever going to make is from their head to their heart"
I don't remember who wrote this or if the quote is 100% correct, but I think it is true <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I struggle with the same emotions you do - true forgiveness is very hard indeed.
Maybe it has something to do with expectations. In my case it has - when I let go of all expectations to my WH he can't dissappoint me anymore... and it's much easier for me to really feel I have forgiven him, the poor soul.
If my heart is not light and happy I have not forgiven. I continue to work on it and as time goes by it gets easier.
I choose not to be a victim! I try not to let my WH's choises affect the way I feel or the way I choose to live my life - it is not easy but when I succeed it feels very self-empowering!

But I have found that even after 2 years and countless accounts of anger and hatred directed at me by her, I still find myself being angry.

That anger is what she knows lays on her shoulders...directed at you...as long as you are were the "bad guy"...then it's a free ticket for her to ride the victim wagon.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Perhaps you need a mantra...as childish as "I know you are but what am I?" said to yourself back at her comments...

even God's forgiveness comes with repentance....
"go forth and SIN NO MORE" I believe was one of Jesus's bumper stickers...

Jewish law from my understanding states that at times forgiveness is not ours to give...

(not getting into a theological debate about forgiveness...)
just offerring different tid-bits on forgiveness....
that it is God's alone...and offerring our own forgiveness is offensive to the ones who suffered....
at the hands we profress forgiveness for...

but mostly....I think ...

I want it for me as well as her. One thing... she has never said she was sorry. I know this seems petty, and has no real bearing upon what I do. But the thought that she just is so pent up and self centered... so egotistical and foolish really seems to bother me. I don't want her to beg. I would not be sincere. But even just a nod that her choices have wrought some terrible damage to our family. Just something that says she has some clue about what she did. I know... this is probably what is holding me back... and I try NOT to tag forgiveness to her actions. But it is just so hard.

that's huge...huge huge...
and the root of this...how does one forgive someone for something they profress no remorse for...can one?

I think you should tell her this...
I think you should speak you peace on this one..
I think you should say you know ex-wife,

that you never said you were sorry to me about how perhaps some choices you made were pretty painful ones....
and I don't really know if you ever think about the route you took to get us all here today...but I know there are things I did in the past that I'm sorry about and wish I had done differently...(always gotta throw in those I statements.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )..
and sometimes I wonder if you feel the same way...
sometimes I wonder if you are sorry about anything....

word it anyway you want...and really what do you have to lose...

if she is sorry she may be too stubborn to admit it on her own...was she one to ever apologize in marriage? and you may setting her free from her own self created prison...and what a gift that is for you to give someone...

if she really isn't sorry...then perhaps you can move on..knowing she is so lost even to herself...that she is really just empty to God's light....

ARK

ark^^ - I'm not sure wether I agree with you or not <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I just want to add this: Forgiveness as I see it is not so much about the WS - it's a burden you, Formerly (and I) as a BS lift from our own shoulders. It's hard to get on with your life when you're carrying such a heavy baggage with you everwhere you go (the anger and resentment).

For me it's about giving and expecting nothing in return.

Is it wrong to:
want to forgive the WS - even if the WS never apologize for what he/she did?
Is it wrong to want to love the WS - even if they'll never love you back?

I'm not sure, but that's what works for me at the moment. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I just want to add this: Forgiveness as I see it is not so much about the WS - it's a burden you, Formerly (and I) as a BS lift from our own shoulders. It's hard to get on with your life when you're carrying such a heavy baggage with you everwhere you go (the anger and resentment).


I agree that there is a burden involved...but resolving that burden may not be found in forgiveness....
It may be found in accepting that it is what it is...

really hurtful behaviors....that one is not sorry for....

perhaps when you change your own (not you but 'you" in general)...idea of forgiveness then that helps lesson the burden..

If someone beats the crappola out of me...and never sees it as any other action except that they are not sorry...and they are not responsible...
should I seek forgiveness for that of which they do not have any remorse...
or
do I change my approach and seek forgiveness a different route...
I forgive them because they are so removed from their own humanity... and so lost that they never will see their role in it...and I offer forgiveness based on that...no longer seeking an apology from them...for my own sanity.. and peace...

So i am not saying not to forgive...I am saying sometimes we have to change our own expectations of we are forgiving...and what the outcome will be...

I think formerlyconfused...should seek clarity to gauge exactly what if anything his ex is able to see as not the greatest choice...
some people continue to rationalize their whole lives never ever taking responsibility for any of their choices....
you can't accept or ever hear they are sorry...because they aren't....

Is it wrong to: want to forgive the WS - even if the WS never apologize for what he/she did? Is it wrong to want to love the WS - even if they'll never love you back?

I dont' think any of those things are wrong...

So when we seek to forgive...and find one route blocked...perhaps it serves us well to change our own idea of what we are forgiving and seek it another path....
to find our own peace...

Change is hard as we all know...and often our beliefs in forgiveness serve us well until faced with such monumental betrayal....that we need to re-examine different level of forgiveness...
and seek it other ways...

ark

Maybe I do agree afterall... English is not my language and I could easily have misunderstood what you're saying, ark.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> agree that there is a burden involved...but resolving that burden may not be found in forgiveness....
It may be found in accepting that it is what it is...

really hurtful behaviors....that one is not sorry for....
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As BS's we shouldn't just accept what the WS did to us. What they did was wrong! Leaving the family for the OP - taking no responsibility for their actions - That is wrong and there is NO excuses... but - in order to be happy and be the best parent for our kid(s) - we have to forgive our spouses for what they did to us and not persue them any further.
Some WS's will never (or too late) see that they made some very bad choises in their lives - if we choose not to forgive them - we will be the ones who's stuck in the drama while they move on like nothing happened.
By forgiving (not actually telling my WS I forgive him! - but before The Lord!) I am able to take a step back and release the burden of anger (anger=fear (in my book))...

I don't see this as an argument but merely as an exchange of ideas - hope you do too... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

There are so many things that I have bottled up about this whole mess. One of the things that really bothers me is the fact that I try and try, but it feels as though I have hit a wall and I can't claw my way over it. My hands are bloody from trying, and it seems that I can realize what is wrong, but can do nothing about it. She brought my boys over to our house to get something just now, and I couldn't say a word to her.

I feel as though I have such little respect for her, that I would be a fool to even involve her in my life at all. I KNOW that is not best for my children, but when I try to be cordial, she ends up bringing something around and blaming me for it. She has made so many choices that have separated her from my trust, that in truth, were it not for my children, I would never speak to her again. I would like to think that this is just resentment and anger, but in some ways I know that it is truth. She has become a person through her repeated choices that I would not abide in my life in any form or fashion. Perhaps, this is something that I need to work on, because she most certainly is a person in my boys' lives.

They need my ex and I to have a better relationship. But I don't know what I need to do in order for that to happen. I can sense the strain that they have, while they are around both of us at the same time. I know they are uncomfortable. But everytime I have tried to extend my hand in kindness and civility, she has bitten it. Now for my own sake, I am afraid to extend it any longer. I find a certain sense of comfort knowing that I won't be speaking to her. I used to fear her. YES FEAR her... She was so harsh and blaming, even during our marriage, that I would dread the possibility that we could end up in an argument. I hated it so much, I would go to great lengths to avoid it. (My fault for sure for not dealing with things in a better way.)

Now, I realize just where all that fear came from and that I no longer ever have to deal with it. But after 14 years, I still have a sense of dread whenever she is even potentially going to be around. I know that I would be tempted to 'set the record straight' which I also KNOW is not what I should do. So I feel a need... and I know that to fulfill that need would only cause more trouble. So I do nothing.

Perhaps a letter which I burn. I don't know. Perhaps a mass email from her own account telling everyone exactly what happened with pictures, emails, phone records, tests... etc. I don't know. I am sick of everyone looking at me sidelong, like I cheated on her and left her in the lurch. I feel as though everyone thinks that I was the person who wrecked the family, cheated, and left. I have told NO ONE other than my friends and family. Her co-workers, etc do not know. And it burns me to think that she sits there and 'badmouths me' to them and they don't have a clue about what really happened. She would lie to them openly when we were married about EACH OTHER. Yes, lie to her friends about her friends. And she would lie to them about what she was doing. Saying she was going out with my friends while telling me she was going out with her friends, all the while, she was going out with her lovers.

AAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhh.........

Just this message shows how far I need to go. No matter how many times I have thought about this, here I am 2 years later, still burning with it. I want so much to let it go. I really do. I don't think, although I wonder after doing some reading, if I hold onto it, because it shows me that I was right, and that I tried and was wronged. I wonder... I hope that somewhere, I am able to just let it go, work through it, break it down, transform it, or ANYTHING that will help me and my boys have a better ME!!!

Notice the conditions for forgiveness in Luke 17:

3 "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 "And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, `I repent,' forgive him."

Not that that is the only thing the Bible says on the subject...

You know what...

I have been thinking about this for a while. God forgives us WHEN WE ASK FOR FORGIVENESS AND REPENT. Nowhere does it say in the Bible that he forgives us without our acknowledging our wrongs and repenting. See, this is one of my problems. She has NOT asked for forgiveness. She has not acknowledged her actions as wrong. She has not come to me even ONCE much less 7 or 77 times. I see no remorse. I see no responsibility for her actions and their effects.

In fact, what I see is her choices then blaming me because I don't give her MORE money. That is all. Never do I see a kind word. But she was rarely one to admit she was wrong during our marriage and I really can't remember her EVER saying 'I'm sorry' FIRST after an argument or some other wrong.

I don't expect an apology. I don't think that she really thinks what she has done and does is wrong. That was one of the reasons we had such difficulty living together. She could never admit she was wrong. She said that about me, but that was not true. When I was right about something, I wouldn't back down. But even when circumstances PROVED her position incorrect, if peace was to be made, I had to come to her to make it.

I could probably go to her and drag an apology out of her AFTER I had apologized and debased myself for 'everything I had done'. I HAVE apologized for the wrongs that she has stated I did her. SEVERAL TIMES, without her goading. I did it because I am sincerely sorry for not being who she needed me to be. Who I wished I was, and who I want to be in the future.

But what do you do when the person you want so desparately to forgive doesn't want your forgiveness nor even think that there is anything to forgive? I try... I do it for me... but it doesn't work very well. I think because the things continue to happen, despite my attempts. New and/or continued wrongs and disrespect is piled on the heap of old. My forgiveness never has a chance to take hold, and now I am so 'gunshy' that I fear being rejected or taken advantage of to the point that I don't WANT to put my heart and soul out there again.

I know that Jesus asked for forgiveness on the cross "for they know not what they do." I really try, I just am not as strong as he is... but I try to let him help me with it none-the-less.

FC,
A few comments on things which have helped me in situations before:
As Jesus was on the cross, he said "Father, forgive them for what they do." Sometimes an intermediary step is asking God to forgive them until we can make it personal enough to feel the forgiveness ourselves. Even that is very hard to do when the harm is as painful as you have endured. Take the time you need. It is a process.
The older editions of The Good News Bible (also known as Today's English Version)have little drawings that illustrate certain verses. One that has always comforted me is by Romans 6:6. It shows a man carrying what is an incredibly heavy burden on his shoulder, because he is bent over with the weight of it. Next he sets it at the foot of the cross. Then he walks on, tall and straight and unencumbered.
I know the temptation of telling all the dirty details of their behavior to the people they are lying to. When you know that they are lying about you it is incredibly painful and frustrating. We spend our lives building our reputation and this person we loved and trusted does their best to destroy it to make themselves look better. It is hard to forgive the ongoing things that never seem to stop. But they have a reputation too. Those around them see the things they do. Have you considered telling them(perhaps by an email or short note)just a few lines such as "I believe you have been told some misleading things about me. For the record, I have not had an affair, beat up my wife, or left her without the money that was designated by the court.(or whatever you believe she has been telling people)" Your restraint alone can help others to find you more believable than she is. And at least you can feel like you are not helpless in the situation. Feeling helpless only adds to our frustration in trying to forgive. I'll be praying for you.

Also, forgiveness and reconciliation are two different things. Forgiveness is letting go of your right for vengence, or retribution, or compensation. Reconciliation is the repairing of the relationship. You can forgive unilaterally. Reconciliation takes two. You can forgive someone for telling lies about you and still tell the truth which contradicts those lies.

<small>[ January 12, 2004, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>