"I was in a controlling marriage.... by my spouse....." (and then I had an affair....)

"The OP has all the control" said the BS

"the WS is controlling my ability to see my children"

"The BS is trying to control me by insisting I can not be "just friends" with my OP"

Interestingly...from what I have seen on some of the otherwoman support boards...is lots of postings about getting control over the OM/OW...and the relationship....control equaling power...

any more???
probably....
lots...

So anyone want to talk about it....
cause the word sure is used a lot in many different situations....

I have have to confess that when I hear a spouse say their spouse is controlling my first gut reaction is no one can control anyone without their consent...

but I realize that when there is true mental and physical abuse...that the dynamics become too inbedded as the only "known"...that it becomes so that the abusee really does embrace "being controlled" because for so long that is all they have known...

BUT I also find the term physical and mental abuse way way over used these days...
but in the true cases of abuse.......I believe people can come to be controlled....

But in other instances where there is a laundry list of unmet emotional needs and controlling being thrown in there...as one of them...
I often want to say...

you let your spouse treat you that way...
you taught your spouse to treat that way..
and then you labled it control to remove yourself from that dynamic...

and please please please this is not a rant or even a blame game....

and hind-sight is twenty twenty...because what do we tell everyone that comes here...
you can't control anyone else but yourself....

and when a BS learns that ...then they also learn that they themselves can not be controlled....

and so the BS and WS are encouraged to get in control of what they can....

perhaps some of the stumbling is because the belief of what being in control really means for so long was equal to being in power over another person...or another person having power over them...that it is the use of this word..without definition that makes plan a and plan b more confusing...at times...

so what does control mean to you now...
what did control mean to you before...

Does anyone believe they were once controlled but now see the same behavior as something they actively participated rather than having no choice...

and what does it mean when I eat that chocolate bar that I didnt' need to eat....
oh...
I know...
the chocolate controlled me...and made me eat it... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> hey I like the word control now...

ARK

No comment you said it all.

To the WS the BS was in control of what they did.
Now it's everyone else's fault but theirs.
The BS has to do the repairs to the M on the WS terms.

What a deal.....................

Is that why it is so difficult for the BS to understand and implement Plan A?

For your info. I am on day 2 of Modified Plan A.
She is doing as she wishes and I just listen. She doesn't like that to much. She ask's me to comment on her choices now, so I say sounds good.
It may be working to soon to tell..........

Thanks

I think this relates to all of the good points you made about control:

People treat us the way that we allow them to treat us. (And that may include allowing them to control us.)

At times, it's easier to label my H controlling, than accept responsibility for allowing him to treat me as he did.

At other times, I still feel as though he is very much about control, and likes to have the sense that he has it. So many times in the past year or so we've argued about control, and accused each other of wanting it. But now I can be honest and say that I know I like to have control too.

Interesting thread ark^^.

Jen

I fully admit I gave my X way too much control during our marriage. In many ways I just became an extension of his will. He is now still trying to control me in the old ways and just cannot understand why I just don't buckle under his every suggestion, order, opinion, etc etc. I see the surprise on his face when I say NO.

I think our marriage was a power struggle, cos I am not wimpy, and I did fight his tactics. But he always 'won' cos he could sulk for longer than me.

Sheesh, what kind of a partnership was that? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

My WW would agree. She allowed me to "control" her earlier in the marriage, so now, she is not allowing it anymore and she is doing what she "wants".

WSs use the word control, like you said, to justify the wrong they want to do. Its not having an affair as much as it is taking back control of my life. All along they may have wanted to have an affair, or maybe they were having an affair, it just wasn't discovered. Now that it's discovered, the control word comes into play.

Hmmm I will try my best to give my take on this.. Unless you were/are ever came close to an emotionally abusive relationship, you can not understand. It slowly happens, then the fear of their anger, and other things slowly does it's work. As for that having anything to do with an affair. No. The fact remains that the A was a result of your (my) bad choices. In my case, here we are working twards changing/repairing our relationship and my EA has only made things more complicated and painful for us both. If I could change things would I? YES! Yes, it did take a separation and almost D for us to get to the point of really seeing things and really working on things.. But, the EA only hurts us and adds lots more work/pain to the process... don't know if that made sense or not...

hmmm, control...I've thought alot about it as I believe WH thinks I was controlling.
This is how I see it...
I did most of the managing and running of the household...including phone calls for banking, insurance, car repairs, doctors, home repairs,budget,school stuff, etc.
You get the picture.
And with him being on the road working so much over the past 4-5 yrs., I'm also the disciplinarian, decision maker, etc. When I would try to talk things over with WH on the phone, he seemed disinterested or confident that I had everything under "control".
Meanwhile, I was reaching burnout status.
It wasn't because I necessarily liked to have to do all of these things, but because it was easier for me, being home during the day and also because WH really was never comfortable doing those types of things.
Even now, he expects me to take care of everything and "assumes" I can, even though we are separated.
WH and I got used to doing things this way.
Right before the A started, WH took over the budget, was horribly unorganized, and also the "reality check" of our financial state (never a secret), was overwhelming for him, I believe.
So now after 20 yrs., WH in the midst of an A, starts calling me controlling, doesn't like being "Mr. Shugah", etc.

So, control issues? Who was controlling who and what and why. Did WH like that I took care of everything, oh so convenient, and now gets to use it as an excuse...probably.
Was I used to doing everything, and even though I expressed my dislike at having too, did I enjoy the "controlling" position and am I reluctant to give anything up? Probably.
It's definately learned behaviour...we start off early in our marriages, taking certain roles within the relationship and then before we know it...it's accepted, but not everyone is necessarily happy about it.
Communication breakdown is obvious in our relationship....messages were being sent but they were ignored.
So my take on the "control" issue...we assume roles...and we don't necessarily enjoy the role we end up in.
SPEAK UP, COMMUNICATE...balance is key.

Interesting thread!

I agree that in true abuse cases one person may come to control another.

Usually the "controlled" person taught their spouse to control them. They allowed themselves to be controlled. Really they have always had and continue to have power to change the situation.

Control is also used to shift focus and blame away from the "controllee" to the controller.

A lot of times control means "we didn't know how to POJA".

For me:
Control USED to mean I felt manipulated and like I didn't have equal power.
Control NOW means we're not POJA-ing or that I need to take a deep breath, overcome my (mostly unrealistic) fears, and gently assert myself.

You are getting sleeepy,sleeepy........

zzzzzzzzzz

O <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

If this message was directed toward a specific individual, please forgive my response, but it reached another in it's path.....

This is one of those threads…..as I read it tears welled up in my eyes, as it is so real to me….

In my eyes, true control is not about controlling the debt, disciplining, or speaking one’s mind (truthfully, I see these as taking responsibility and being opinionated)…..Instead, it is about a conscious (or subconscious) motivation to influence someone else’s actions or feelings. And unfortunately in most cases, it is not always intentional or outright malicious.

Having been the abusee before, there is much more of a gray area than people are letting on…..and this gray area usually stems from an underlying motivation of the “controlee/abusee” to give, respect, and please. Tangled within, there is usually a strong degree of self doubt.

While it is easy to say the “controlee” has taught their spouse/SO to control, it is usually not that defined. For instance…..W wants to go with a same sex friend to happy hour. H calls and says that he is worried that W will get drunk and drive home. H then says he misses W and would love to spend time with her. W really wants to stay out, but also does not wish to disrespect H’s feelings. W also knows that she needs to meet H’s emotional needs. So W cuts the time short, and heads home.

Sounds pretty harmless - H has valid reasons, and W really wants to respect H’s thoughts and feelings…..but it can grow to much more. It will repeat and repeat and repeat….to the point where W just knows, that after a certain amount of time, she must head home - whether she likes it or not. If she does not, she will then suffer the consequences of an H who thinks she is irresponsible, she is disrespecting his feelings, or that she doesn’t want to be with him. Yet in a sense, it is still a form of control that H has on his W.

You see, it does not have to start with either party being purposefully manipulative or malintended…..rather an incident that could be questionable, and then a pattern establishing from it. Yet at what point does one stop this pattern? And for what reason when a precedent has already been set?

If you can’t tell already, I am one who is easily “lured” (or for those others, easily “allows” myself) into control. Part of what makes me happy in life is helping others to be happy. Yet many times in that quest, I lose track of what makes me happy and trusting my own feelings. Or I talk myself into having patience to give someone time to change. And to be honest, when I let myself trust someone, I give that trust implicitly….I “allow” them to be the person I should be able to be weak around, to be able to trust, to know that they too will care for me as I do for them.

Yet what starts out as simply respecting their feelings, then turns into a few double standards, then progresses to control and finally, sometimes abuse. It is not so defined as the controlee/abusee just “allowing” it. Instead, it is a huge self doubt and inability to see things from one side. And once this point is reached, the self doubt is all encompassing…..

For those of us that are patient…..for those of us that are fairly adept at seeing more than one side of an issue…..for those of us that wish to make the most important people in our lives as happy as they could possibly be…..it is ultimately that motivation of “selflessness” that leads to our “allowing” ourselves into this situation. And yet, even when we know we are deep into the abuse/control, it is our own self doubt that causes us to stay…..”well, maybe S did have a right to get angry…..maybe they are just not as tolerant as the rest of us…..maybe they will change…..maybe they are just angry today…..maybe they didn’t intend to hurt us that way”…..a “barrage” of excuses, justifications, and (to sometimes a sickening degree) understanding/forgiving toward the “abuser”

I honestly still struggle with myself on this one. I was in an extremely emotionally abusive relationship for 3 ½ years when I was in my teens - When I look back - with the exception of a few incidents - I still have difficulty categorizing most of the control and abuse as such. Please trust me when I say that for some of us, the lines are not so solid…. There is a reason it is referred to as “manipulative.”

Don’t know if this made any sense (see the self doubt there)….but for those of you that see black and white, please respond…..I could use all the help I can get!

LOST IN TEXAS,,,
I havent' even read your response yet...just the first line...

know that is post was not ever started in response too or aimed at someone...

It is a re-current theme in many different posters...in many different situations...

I myself encourage many to get in control...who the heck even knows what I am talking about...

no one in mind when posted...
hope no one feels targeted..

off to read your post now..
ark...

Lost in Texas,

Eloquently stated!

You and I share MANY of the same traits, although I have never (to my knowledge) been in a relationship that could be called abusive. I have been told I give "too much" of myself, and that I neglect myself at times in an effort to care for others.

I know exactly what you mean by a situation starting out being a compromise but evolving into a pattern where you no longer feel totally in control of the situation.

I am a conflict-avoider, which fits nicely with my "give too much of myself" tendencies <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> and leaves me uncertain and fearful when I do finally realize a change is needed.

I'm not sure how to change this in myself, but at least I have realized it does need to change, and that's one step.

Great post.

lostintexas...

I agree that repeatition leads this pattern to become the known...
please know this is not intent on argueing with you...it is offered in looking at it in a way that identifies the begining of a pattern, the actual pattern and the outcome....

W really wants to stay out, but also does not wish to disrespect H’s feelings. W also knows that she needs to meet H’s emotional needs.
So W cuts the time short, and heads home.

to the point where W just knows, that after a certain amount of time, she must head home - whether she likes it or not. If she does not, she will then suffer the consequences of an H who thinks she is irresponsible, she is disrespecting his feelings, or that she doesn’t want to be with him.

Yet in a sense, it is still a form of control that H has on his W.

the last line is the control she handed to him...
In an equal loving relationship a night out with girls is not disrepectful
is not neglecting emotional needs..
is not anything negative to the spouse....

and having a spouse that turns that into all these negative things... is a huge warning flag...
even though I understand how difficult or not impossible to see them as that...

. Part of what makes me happy in life is helping others to be happy.

Do you realize NOW how this whole setup is doomed to fail...
that you can't MAKE anyone else happy...
no one can.....

for those of us that wish to make the most important people in our lives as happy as they could possibly be…..it is ultimately that motivation of “selflessness” that leads to our “allowing” ourselves into this situation.

doomed to fail...

have you read shel silversteins THE GIVING TREE?

the tree that gives and gives to make her friend happy...and yet he never is....

I WANT happiness for the important people in my life...
but it is not in my power to make them happy...

have you looked at that way yet lostin...

my post may have sounded black and white in the offering...but that's just the way it's posted...
it's not meant to be so....

ARK

Although, I'm seen as the "controller" in WH"s eyes, I too am a conflict avoider and also fail to get my needs met as I hardly take the time to identify them!
As I stated to IC just recently, "I don't think I deserve to get my needs met".
Definate self-esteem issues. Although from the outside I would not be identified as so.
Very confusing and conflicting signals to anyone close to me I suppose.

I can totally relate with Lost in Texas. Even her example is "my marriage". But here's another thought that I haven't seen anyone address. I was 19 when I started seeing my husband and got married at 21. He is 9 years older. During these 15 years of marriage I would now call "controlling", I always thought I was just being a submissive wife. I was never taught where the line of submission and being controlled is. Still not sure I know - actually, I know I don't know. Need help!!!

Interesting thread Ark

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> so what does control mean to you now...
what did control mean to you before...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'll start from the before...

Control was for me trying to get my way. I always discussed things or so I thought.

Now...

I have learned there are a LOT of things that escapes my control, and what I can only control NOW, are my feelings or the way I think.

As I learned recently, I'm responsible for my actions, and God is responsible for the results.

So maybe I don't control anything? hehe

God is in charge I just think I'm! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

To me, control means using means that are not respectful to get the other person to co-operate at his or her own expense. If swearing doesn't work, maybe pushing will!

In one way, I am so glad to know that I am not the only one in the world who has some difficulty at discerning the lines b/w control and respect for others.....Yet then again, I feel awful that anyone can relate to what I posted because I know first hand how much of a struggle it is for me...

Ark, I am truly glad you posted this thread, though....It is definitely an area of my personality and perception which I need to work on....
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> please know this is not intent on argueing with you...it is offered in looking at it in a way that identifies the begining of a pattern, the actual pattern and the outcome.... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not at all taken as an argument....believe me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I appreciate any and all perspectives that can help me to identify how I keep falling into this pattern - it is something I definitely need to change....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In an equal loving relationship a night out with girls is not disrepectful
is not neglecting emotional needs..
is not anything negative to the spouse....
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, help me on this one....while I see that a night out is not necessarily harmful to the H, please explain why it is not disrespectful to his feelings - and also how it is not denying his EN for....say recreational companionship....I'm still a little fuzzy on this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you realize NOW how this whole setup is doomed to fail...
that you can't MAKE anyone else happy...
no one can.....
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unfortunately, I NOW do.....in fact, one of the defining factors before my A was that I didn't think my H was happy with me. In a very warped way, I tried to plan A him by trying to change things about myself that I could. He was still not happy, and I continually beat myself up about how even when I tried my hardest to be everything he wants, I still was not enough from him.

I guess I learned the hard way. I couldn't make him happy, and my giver had pretty much blown out. My taker took control, and I had my A.

But I do think it is often a concept that people take for granted. How often do we hear "you make me sooo happy" or "I am so happy when I am with you." It has taken this entire experience for me to really look at myself and see that I need to build an internal support structure to make my own happiness and peace. Prior to that, I hung my entire being on whether or not my H was happy with me or not. Basically, I let him define me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> have you read shel silversteins THE GIVING TREE?

the tree that gives and gives to make her friend happy...and yet he never is....

I WANT happiness for the important people in my life...
but it is not in my power to make them happy... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I read it when I was very, very, very young...guess it didn't stick very well, did it?

No, in all seriousness, I realize noone can MAKE anyone else happy....however, there is a certain something to be said for doing something for someone else.

For instance....I work in the medical field with many patients who are either older and somewhat confused - and with people who are about to have surgery with serious risks. By simply providing a hand to hold, a smile, and a gentle voice, so many patients gain a sense of comfort.....thus in some sense - a little more happiness than if those few things were not there.

While I know I could never make them happy - I can provide an environment which encourages happiness....and I suppose that is my gray area. I want to provide that environment to those that I love. And in the process, I often compromise my own needs, and begin to establish poor patterns.

Perhaps a better way to put it is that what makes me happy is seeing other people happy. And if I can do something that would encourage them to find happiness, then in turn, I too gain something from it. Yet in the long run, you are right - it is utterly destructive because I then begin to establish the pattern.....still a very gray area to me due to my nature.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">my post may have sounded black and white in the offering...but that's just the way it's posted...
it's not meant to be so.... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope I did not offend anybody by concentrating on the black and white issue....I suppose it's just that for me, it's not so easy to discern. While for some others, it seems so cut and dry - so defined . I suppose it was just a way of saying that in myself, there is so much gray... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Again, I cannot tell everyone how much I appreciate this thread. Just the fact that this is being discussed is helping me to address some issues within myself. Thank you.

To accuse another of being controlling can also be an excuse and not a valid reason. So here's the big question: How to tell when one is being controlling vs a conflict avoider? Then how to handle each one? Even if it can come from the same source but for different reasons? Ok more than 1 big question..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Many a OP, WS and even BS accuse others of being controlling. IMHO the best way to regain control is to give others control of themselves. Don't tell your spouse how to dress, walk or eat. Let them decide. It might make you cringe but no one ever died from wearing mismatched clothes..... ok maybe the fashion police might have a warrant out but really...... if he wants to look like a dork with the OW.... my advice? Let 'em. See? I gave a it feels good. Least I won't have to wear a sign saying "I'm w/ - - - > _ _ _ _ _ !

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.