Its been nearly 2 years and we are still arguing about me going to a strip club once for a bachelor party. Everyone except her is tired of hearing it. We have seen therapists who say she is beating a dead horse, that she needs to let it go. We have spent hours, sometimes talking lovingly, sometimes arguing fiercely. I admit what I did was stupid and I know I hurt her and I am sorry. It scared the hell out of me when I got back that evening and told her I had some lap dances and she told me she experienced that as infidelity, I promised her I would never set foot in a strip club again, and I have not, nor do I have any intention of doing so. She seemed fine until 10 months later and now she cannot let it go and continues to bring it up frequently, I have been inconsistent in being supportive about her feelings largely due to the hours spent talking about it, being grilled about every detail. This topic has ruined too many evenings and weekends. I have asked her to stop at times because I had either just woke up in the morning, or because I wasn't feeling well with a headache etc., or because we had been talking about it for hours and my patience was running out, and she cannot. This is from a woman who dumped me 13 years ago, and was married 6 months later, to someone she hardly knew. She's currently getting divorced and has three young kids, so is under considerable stress from that, and obviously was greatly disillusioned by what I did. I think she is ruminating, obsessing, etc. and may very well have some sort of OCD or anxiety disorder. She is always looking for reassurance. We are not married and I am really beginning to think we may not be a good match because of her inability to let it go, and her inability to stop when I ask her. We need to resolve this. I can't help but feel what she did to me, (dumping me and subsequently getting married when I was literally half way across the country to move in with her), pales in comparison to one evening in a strip club. How do we resolve this?

Rollin,

I want to share with you a portion of one Dr. Harley's letters from the home site about a woman who's husband keeps bringing up her single past mistake. There are some parallels with your situation....and especially since the two of you are not married yet....I think this needs to be settled now before you do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> There is no excuse for the way her husband keeps bringing up her moment of weakness she experienced years ago. He is disrespectful and abusive.

I suggest that she look him right in the eye and say to him, "Listen Buster, do you love me? Do you want me to love you? Do you want to spend the rest of your life with me? If the answers to any of those questions is 'yes' you sure are going about it the wrong way. You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!"

What if he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all."

To that I would say, "It's up to you. I married you for life, but if you want a divorce, it's your call. If you want to be in a love relationship with me, however, you're going to have to treat me much better than you have been treating me. You must never again bring up my affair, and if you are upset with me, you will have to treat me with respect until we can solve the problem. If you are upset with our sexual relationship, I want us to discuss it as adults and solve it with mutual respect. I refuse to be treated like this, especially by the man I love."

My advice to her husband is to never mention her affair again. It's a good example of one of the enemies of good conversation, dwelling on past mistakes. Whenever you keep bringing up your spouses past mistakes, you not only make your conversations incredibly unpleasant, but it cannot possibly lead to a resolution of a conflict you may be discussing. And as soon as his resentment doesn't pay him any dividends -- no longer helps him get his way -- he will find that it hardly ever occurs to him.

Hanging on to an unpleasant thought because it helps us somehow is what psychologists call "secondary gain." It means that even though the thought is unpleasant, it gets you something you need, so your mind keeps it around for its usefulness. There are many unpleasant thoughts that have this characteristic, and I have helped many people let them go by helping them destroy the usefulness of the thought. Making sure that S.K.'s husband never gets what he wants by bringing up her affair will help him overcome his resentment.


</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What do you think?

Rollin,

Is it my understanding that you and this woman were having a relationship since 2 years ago but she is still married to someone else? only now getting divorced??

Has she been married then for around 12 years?

This sounds confusing to me ,sorry maybe you could clarify?

O

Og,

I was having alot of trouble with the math there too. Thanks for asking...it's confusing.

I think she brings it up whimsically sometimes, as though its not a difficult topic, or sometimes she'll bring it up because an association in her mind ie she'll see a woman with large breasts, it reminds her of the strip club, she'll ask me if I noticed the woman...the last time I said yes, and that I had purposefully not looked more than I would have had she not been there out of respect for her. This whole thing has really gotten out of hand. I'm not some learing pervert, I don't stare at people, or embarass them by staring. I don't know what she is getting out of this. I imagine shes testing me. She's getting out of a bad marriage, but I am wondering what her role was in making the marriage bad. Her ex traveled frequently, I just returned from a 5 day trip, she asks if there were any good looking women in Aspen Colorado, ofcourse there are. So here we have a mix of her old issues perhaps, and our own issues. My issue is I wasn't back 10 hours and we were fighting, and somehow it doesn't upset her in the least that I am in tears telling her I cannot take the constant conflict. I had told her I was at the end of my rope before I left. I don't think we go more than half a week without some sort of conflict. I am getting depressed realizing I cannot continue this way.

She's been separated over 2 years, we've been dating 21 months...she and her ex agreed to divorce, and also that they would be dating during the separation. Sometimes I do wish I had told her to give me a call when she's actually divorced, and now reading the literature I realize, although she does her best to minimize it, the significance of the emotional ties of marriage, especially with kids involved. So am I trying to save her?

Were these kinds of things issues in her "bad" marriage? Is she taking her old marital issues out on you?

I don't think its so much the issue(s) itself, but the processing that is the problem. I think her brain is still wired for making negative associations, and also for fighting, and basically expecting to be treated badly. There is definately an obsessive compulsive component though with wanting to talk, analyse, figure stuff out ad nauseum, and a sort of desperation that goes along with it. At times it seems like its just an entertainment for her, it also is abusive to me especially when she won't stop and I need to get back to work, or I have a migraine, (yes she will continue on regardless of my pleas for her to stop), or its late and I just want to sleep. Its like she has no control over it at times, while other times she can be perfectly rational and explain how she feels and what she needs from me. But it has been going on for so long I really do resent it coming up, even though I have apologized repeatedly and assured her it won't happen again, she doesn't trust me. The problem is it seems everytime any argument comes up it manages to work its way back to the strip club issue. I know this must be resolved and I know I am really beginning to doubt how good a partner she will be. Its not even that it comes up, but the anger and abusiveness that go with it is getting intolerable.

If you truly are not the reason for the demise of her marriage and there isn't any animosity between you and her husband I would suggest having a talk with him to get his perspective on why their marriage failed. That could shed some light on some things for you. Were either one of them unfaithful or abusive?

From what you said I would say that she is not a good match for you. If she behaves this way now it will not get better if and when you and she marry. If anything, it will get worse unless she gets some help for this. Coupling that with being a step parent and all the stress that will bring I can not see that your relationship with her will survive very long.

At the least, I would suggest you separate until after her divorce is final and she has gotten some IC for herself. She needs to look at her part in why her marriage failed. At best, you should encourage her to work on reconciliation with her husband, the father of her children; to work on the problems that led to her marriage getting so bad.

Also, she needs to look at her ability to forgive and get rid of resentment and anger. Her inability to learn this will only hurt her and her children is well as any of her relationships.

Staying with her could be one of your worst nightmares without her dealing with the 'issues' in her life.

Rollin, I have too much of this myself to be harsh or judgmental toward her. Though not as extreme, I know what it is like to obsess over an event (or an affair) and not be able to get it out of my system till I have driven everyone around me nuts. What kind of counseling have you tried? How about the Harleys? She's got to get this under control -- not just for you, but for her life. Working this out together might be good.

Rollin,
Has she been able to verbalize why she has continued to hold onto this and continue to need to revisit it even though you have explained every detail? What is she expecting to achieve by this obsessing?

It sounds like you have tried to answer all of her questions. Have you asked and has she given you forgiveness?

How about getting the book on Love Busters or His Needs, Her Needs?

But, I still tend to think this relationship is doomed unless she truly did all she could to work on the conflicts in their marriage and attempt a reconciliation. But, since you haven't really shared what they did or did not do to try to save their marriage it is really hard to know how much of an impact all of that will have on your relationship. It is just bound to be more difficult with the added stress of her kids. Children can be a blessing but they can also make life miserable for a step parent if they see you as the reason that their Mom isn't getting back together with their Dad. This can be so even if you didn't come into the picture until after a divorce is complete.

I also think is unhealthy for people to conhabitate (live together before marriage) especially when there are children involved. It is confusing for them and is not a good moral example. It is also risky for them to get attached to someone that doesn't have the commitment to really stay in their lives and possibly be a rebound relationship.

Sometimes people fantasize about a prior love...the one that got away. Many times the fantasy doesn't match the reality when they actually are living with that person with all the responsibilities that go along with that.

When life was tough with your GF and her marriage she may have fantasized about you and what her life may have been had she chosen you instead. If she allowed herself to do that it wasn't healthy or helpful for her marriage nor was it reality.

I think its a sort of undisciplined thinking on her part also, which I would guess contributed to alot of resentment in her marriage. ie she repeatedly experiences some negative feelings / insecurity. Her unhappiness over that results in her angrily demanding some sort of fix, ie. I should be begging her forgiveness on my hands and knees everytime this comes up. This sort of demanding behaviour results in increasing resentment for both parties, love is diminished...
The bottom line is she doesn't trust me. She thinks I could easily 'do it again'. And she is threatened, despite my assurances to the contrary, that I will. I don't know what I need to do to regain her trust, and actually think there are greater issues here. I am really having trouble with this. I've gotten so whenever this comes up, I get upset that once again another evening/weekend/vacation is getting ruined. Its like she is testing me to see if I will indulge her insecurity, and she feels entitled to angrily demand that I somehow placate her.

I agree with other posters, and this may sound harsh, but you have been the OM. No telling what situation her M was in when she left, whether you were the reason she left (wanted to leave with the hope of finding something better), or the reason she didn't return.

She "dated" both you and her H at the same time? Not exactly, she cheated on her H with you. I know this sounds harsh, but now that you have read some from this site you know that it's not appropriate for a spouse to start dating until they are D. What do you do now? How about telling her you both will cool things until after her D.

As far as her behavior? Could be a way to drive you away. Or could be because she doesn't trust herself that she transfers that to mistrust of you. Are there other men? I

have a motto I live with, never trust someone which doesn't trust you. It usually means they are untrustworthy themselves.

Again, what kind of counseling have you tried? I really think you need a third party.

So far the third parties we have received counseling from have basically said we are 'beating a dead horse'. Unfortunately she doesn't understand that the continued conflict generated by this issue is definately driving me away. I am beginning to think that is her motive, even though she says otherwise, this way it looks like its my fault. I have told her I'm at the end of my rope, that I cannot stand the continued conflict. She basically laughed at me when I told her how depressed I was to have come back from a nice ski weekend to her arguing and fighting. We actually nearly made it through the long weekend without fighting, but before I left last night she brought it up again...with the inevitable result. She thinks I have some big fear about talking about it, my fear is that she is making my life miserable over what is, or at least should be, a non issue. Here I am trying to deal with the emotional stress of her marriage / divorce and basically feeling like I'm sitting on the sidelines. I really do have a real hard time with the 'one evening in a strip club 2 years ago' > 'dumping me, getting married,
having kids, now coming back and telling me what a mistake it was to marry him' argument. Apples and Oranges? Is it wrong to make that comparison?
Ofcourse I know shes afraid of getting hurt, and I certainly have no intention of hurting her again. Perhaps we should have been smarter and realized there was too much bad history between us to try to overlook, and that it would be crazy to actually marry that much pain.
Its a real shame because when we are getting along, I don't give it a thought, but when we are not I can't help but think what a huge mistake I might be making...I'm sure she feels the same.

Sometimes we fantasize the past relationship as problem free when in fact there may have been valid reasons why she chose to marry her husband and not you. This may have also been what was best for you. She still has some of those niggling things that annoy her and she uses this strip club insident to, yes, maybe test your love, but also as a way to push you away. She is using it as a power play. It almost sounds like chinese torcher treatment. It certainly sounds like she should have been over this a while ago.

Maybe she married the right person after all. You should really back off until after her divorce.

Really, I don't think you can or should go back to trying to recapture what got away. Maybe you should be counting your lucky stars that you didn't marry her.

You are still in a fantasy relationship. Full time, married life with her and all of the negatives are bound to be accentuated. On top of that you will have her three kids that may resent you for not being their real dad. Or the kids may blame you that she and their dad aren't together even if you possibly weren't the cause of the divorce. She needs to work out this stuff in IC. Or maybe you and she could try phone counceling with Cerri or S.H.

If you take a good break to sort this stuff out maybe you will have a better chance of this working.

She sounds like she has some growing up to do, or some introspection to do...or at least to learn how to forgive and move on with peace.

It sounds like you have done all you can to placate her and even grovel. You certainly sounded remorseful and repentant right from the start. Why is she so unablte to put this stupid incident behind her and forgive you?

If she brings it up again maybe you should just get up and leave. Don't allow her beat a dead horse anymore. 2 yrs... for a lap dance....and yo aren't married.....sheesh!
Maybe have her do a lap dance for you and tell her she's much better at it anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I ruined her fantasy when I went to a bachelor party 13 days after we got back together and had the lap dances (more than one, some from the same woman). It was a stupid, thoughtless, sophomoric thing to do. In her mind I had a 'relationship' and she continues to awfulize and catastrophize the events of that evening that were meaningless to me, but that have obviously carried significant symbolic meaning for her. I know she did think about me during her marriage. I too carried thoughts of her, but they weren't all positive since she had dropped me rather abruptly. She did marry too soon, foolishly, and as she says on the rebound from me. And that their relationship would not have lasted a year if she had not become pregnant. Somehow I feel I get the blame for her bad marriage too. I have not always been consistently repentant or remorseful, though I am and was genuinely sorry and afraid the first time she said she experienced it as infidelity. But I also know I have alot of anger still from her having dumped me, and the subsequent hurt from being in love with someone who is still technically married and still pandering to the emotions of her hopefully soon to be ex-husband, so as not to make things worse, or have to deal with his anger. We have a 20 year history that is messy, and the strip club thing was perhaps the worst thing I could do short of actually having had sexual intercourse with someone else.

Since you also have a lot of anger maybe it would be best to sit her down and again tell her how much all the past etc. hurt and angered you. Then forgive her. Maybe by doing that she will get the message that she can do the same for you about the lap dances.

Giving her your forgiveness is healing not only for her but mostly for you. "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us".

It is important to respect her tolerance level for such things. Did you have any idea that she would have such an intense reaction to that fateful night? But still...it's been 2 years...was this private lap dances or were all your buddies watching? Not that it matters. I don't know. I think you need to work this out before you make any long term commitment to her.

<small>[ January 21, 2004, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: 4give ]</small>

I foolishly didn't know or think it would be a problem, I left that night with her saying have a good time I want you to enjoy your life. She obviously didn't mean to do anything more than look. The lap dances occurred in the public area, with all the rest of the bachelor party around. The problem is her imagination as to what occurred, and what it means to her. I understand the repeated hurt when she is reminded constantly by all the t&a on TV and in the media. I too feel pain whenever I see small children, or TV shows about engagement/marriage. I have a hard time with the idea that she has three kids from such a terrible marriage. It seems to me if things are so bad why continue to have children? She gets self righteous about that saying she had a legitimate relationship. That is true. But it seems horribly short sighted and selfish to continue having kids when you are so unhappy in the marriage. Its like she used her husband so she could have her children. She says the strip club happened in 'this' relationship, and somehow I should be able to differentiate between what she did and what I did, because what she did happened so long ago. Well what she did is still happening, and always will. Can I forgive her for doing what she did? For being her? Is it forgiveness or acceptance?
How do I know when I have truly forgiven her and accepted what she did? I know its dependant on my attitude about it. I also know it will always hurt. I do think its a good idea to back off some until her life is more settled, and I hate the statistics saying marriages that occur within 2 years of a divorce have an 85% failure rate. I can't help but think that her behavior, the love busters like angry outbursts, selfish demands, and disrepectful judgements, had alot more to do with her divorce than she cares to acknowledge responsibility for. I know they have definately seriously eroded our relationship. And the more she continues to be stuck on the strip club, for whatever reason, whether its a test, or to drive me away, or to avoid dealing with the real issues in her life, the more it makes me question whether I am setting myself up for a huge mistake.

It seems like she is trying to rewrite history somewhat. Maybe rewriting not only what happened between you and her and why she married her H but also the history of their marriage. It could not have always been bad for her to have 3 children with him. One maybe but 3?

It would probably be a LB but have you ever gotten his side of the story...or is there too much bad blood between you two to ask? Is he in another relationship or was he having an A while they were married? You probably only have her side of the story. It takes two to make and break a marriage.

Before I married my husband I asked his XW (they were married for 2 yrs when they were very young and at least 6 yrs before I met him) what her reasons were for the marriage failing and her wanting a divorce. I wanted her side of the story to see if there was anything that stood out as a big, scary negative and to see if their stories matched. I think it was a wise thing to do before we were to marry.

Many times one spouse can only see the faults of the other and not their own. Or she could have been painting him as being an evil person and she was always the angel. Unfortunately, from what you have been describing she sounds a bit shrewish.

I still vote for taking some steps back away from this relationship at least until her divorce is final.

But, ultimately, it is usually best if she could work out whatever problems were in her marriage and reconcile with her husband: the father of her children; and if he is willing. That would be best for all concerned.

I have been a step parent so I know of what I speak regarding the resentment that kids can have even if you have nothing to do with their breakup. You don't even want to be perceived at all as having been a party to it. Even small children have awarenesses and feelings in these regards.

And like I've said all the bad stuff is highly likely to be worse after marriage...all those angry outbursts, disrespectful judgements, selfish demands. I'll bet they were there big time in her marriage too.

Has she read any of the principals on this site? Maybe you should buy the books Love Busters and HIs Needs, Her Needs and either go over them together or ask her to read them.