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I told her this morning that we need to take a break until shes divorced. Her response was predictable I guess, 'so you can go out whoring and go to strip clubs'. I told her I did not want either of us to date anyone else, and that I'm not going out 'whoring' or going to strip clubs, but that I can't take this constant conflict and sitting on the sidelines, getting strung along, and that she should either be working on getting divorced or fixing her marriage. That I cannot continue to act like its OK when it is not.

Its real hard for me to take her seriously about the strip club while she is still married, even if she hasn't had sex with him in years. But us taking a break doesn't solve anything, and may just create more anger and hostility on her part. It certainly doesn't address the feelings behind her hanging onto the the strip club incident. I think her bad behaviour is a bad habit that perhaps she got away with for years because her (not yet?) XH did treat her poorly with his extensive traveling and multiple moves.
Which perhaps just bred more bad feelings, resentment and loss of caring. Is it possible to be addicted to anger?

I'm sure she feels completely justified in her behavior, that the anger is perfectly normal. She doesn't hear me when I tell her its driving me away, eroding our love, making me care less and less.

I have never spoken with her H, and I do need to find out what she did wrong in the marriage. She got mad at me when I suggested she was not so expert at relationships as she thinks she is.

Its time for me to let go a bit, and let her figure things out. I'm just not sure how much contact I should have with her.

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I think you will be doing a good thing for all concerned if you follow through with distancing yourself from her until after the divorce. Great decision!

If she can not look at herself and see that her anger is counter productive toward what she is trying to achieve in her relationships and seek to work on it; then I don't see any hope in your having much of a future with her.

If she is still hurt and angry because of the failure of her marriage or whatever, being with you before she works that out is not going to great for either of you or her kids. You may be bearing the brunt of most of her anger because you are an easy target; you've been there.

I know it will probably be painful to wait this out, but, hopefully, it will be worth it in the end.

Maybe a book about freeing oneself from negative emotions, or one on resolving anger, or one on forgiveness would help her. Of course, they'd probably make her angry first. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I wish others would have chimed in more on your thread. It may have something to do with your girl friend not having a divorce yet and the concern that you may have been instumental in some way with the demise of her marriage. That isn't a great way to start a relationship.

Reading the concepts on this site can only help you have a better grasp on what can make a relationship more fullfilling.

I hope things work out best for you both.

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Here is something I came across regarding Anger: (there was a link to this today on www.refdesk.com )

American Psychological Association
Office of Public Affairs
750 First St., N.E.
Washington, DC 20002-4242
(202) 336-5700
Email: Public Affairs
Controlling Anger -- Before It Controls You

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TOPICS:

What Is Anger?

Anger Management

Strategies To Keep Anger At Bay?

Do You Need Counseling?

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We all know what anger is, and we've all felt it: whether as a fleeting annoyance or as full-fledged rage.

Anger is a completely normal, usually healthy, human emotion. But when it gets out of control and turns destructive, it can lead to problems—problems at work, in your personal relationships, and in the overall quality of your life. And it can make you feel as though you're at the mercy of an unpredictable and powerful emotion. This brochure is meant to help you understand and control anger.

What is Anger?

The Nature of Anger

Anger is "an emotional state that varies in intensity from mild irritation to intense fury and rage," according to Charles Spielberger, PhD, a psychologist who specializes in the study of anger. Like other emotions, it is accompanied by physiological and biological changes; when you get angry, your heart rate and blood pressure go up, as do the levels of your energy hormones, adrenaline, and noradrenaline.

Anger can be caused by both external and internal events. You could be angry at a specific person (Such as a coworker or supervisor) or event (a traffic jam, a canceled flight), or your anger could be caused by worrying or brooding about your personal problems. Memories of traumatic or enraging events can also trigger angry feelings.

Expressing Anger

The instinctive, natural way to express anger is to respond aggressively. Anger is a natural, adaptive response to threats; it inspires powerful, often aggressive, feelings and behaviors, which allow us to fight and to defend ourselves when we are attacked. A certain amount of anger, therefore, is necessary to our survival.

On the other hand, we can't physically lash out at every person or object that irritates or annoys us; laws, social norms, and common sense place limits on how far our anger can take us.

People use a variety of both conscious and unconscious processes to deal with their angry feelings. The three main approaches are expressing, suppressing, and calming. Expressing your angry feelings in an assertive—not aggressive—manner is the healthiest way to express anger. To do this, you have to learn how to make clear what your needs are, and how to get them met, without hurting others. Being assertive doesn't mean being pushy or demanding; it means being respectful of yourself and others.

Anger can be suppressed, and then converted or redirected. This happens when you hold in your anger, stop thinking about it, and focus on something positive. The aim is to inhibit or suppress your anger and convert it into more constructive behavior. The danger in this type of response is that if it isn't allowed outward expression, your anger can turn inward—on yourself. Anger turned inward may cause hypertension, high blood pressure, or depression.

Unexpressed anger can create other problems. It can lead to pathological expressions of anger, such as passive-aggressive behavior (getting back at people indirectly, without telling them why, rather than confronting them head-on) or a personality that seems perpetually cynical and hostile. People who are constantly putting others down, criticizing everything, and making cynical comments haven't learned how to constructively express their anger. Not surprisingly, they aren't likely to have many successful relationships.

Finally, you can calm down inside. This means not just controlling your outward behavior, but also controlling your internal responses, taking steps to lower your heart rate, calm yourself down, and let the feelings subside.

As Dr. Spielberger notes, "when none of these three techniques work, that's when someone—or something—is going to get hurt."

Anger Management

The goal of anger management is to reduce both your emotional feelings and the physiological arousal that anger causes. You can't get rid of, or avoid, the things or the people that enrage you, nor can you change them, but you can learn to control your reactions.

Are You Too Angry?

There are psychological tests that measure the intensity of angry feelings, how prone to anger you are, and how well you handle it. But chances are good that if you do have a problem with anger, you already know it. If you find yourself acting in ways that seem out of control and frightening, you might need help finding better ways to deal with this emotion.

Why Are Some People More Angry Than Others?

According to Jerry Deffenbacher, PhD, a psychologist who specializes in anger management, some people really are more "hotheaded" than others are; they get angry more easily and more intensely than the average person does. There are also those who don't show their anger in loud spectacular ways but are chronically irritable and grumpy. Easily angered people don't always curse and throw things; sometimes they withdraw socially, sulk, or get physically ill.

People who are easily angered generally have what some psychologists call a low tolerance for frustration, meaning simply that they feel that they should not have to be subjected to frustration, inconvenience, or annoyance. They can't take things in stride, and they're particularly infuriated if the situation seems somehow unjust: for example, being corrected for a minor mistake.

What makes these people this way? A number of things. One cause may be genetic or physiological: There is evidence that some children are born irritable, touchy, and easily angered, and that these signs are present from a very early age. Another may be sociocultural. Anger is often regarded as negative; we're taught that it's all right to express anxiety, depression, or other emotions but not to express anger. As a result, we don't learn how to handle it or channel it constructively.

Research has also found that family background plays a role. Typically, people who are easily angered come from families that are disruptive, chaotic, and not skilled at emotional communications.

Is It Good To "Let it All Hang Out?"

Psychologists now say that this is a dangerous myth. Some people use this theory as a license to hurt others. Research has found that "letting it rip" with anger actually escalates anger and aggression and does nothing to help you (or the person you're angry with) resolve the situation.

It's best to find out what it is that triggers your anger, and then to develop strategies to keep those triggers from tipping you over the edge.

Strategies To Keep Anger At Bay

Relaxation

Simple relaxation tools, such as deep breathing and relaxing imagery, can help calm down angry feelings. There are books and courses that can teach you relaxation techniques, and once you learn the techniques, you can call upon them in any situation. If you are involved in a relationship where both partners are hot-tempered, it might be a good idea for both of you to learn these techniques.

Some simple steps you can try:

Breathe deeply, from your diaphragm; breathing from your chest won't relax you. Picture your breath coming up from your "gut."

Slowly repeat a calm word or phrase such as "relax," "take it easy." Repeat it to yourself while breathing deeply.

Use imagery; visualize a relaxing experience, from either your memory or your imagination.

Nonstrenuous, slow yoga-like exercises can relax your muscles and make you feel much calmer.
Practice these techniques daily. Learn to use them automatically when you're in a tense situation.

Cognitive Restructuring

Simply put, this means changing the way you think. Angry people tend to curse, swear, or speak in highly colorful terms that reflect their inner thoughts. When you're angry, your thinking can get very exaggerated and overly dramatic. Try replacing these thoughts with more rational ones. For instance, instead of telling yourself, "oh, it's awful, it's terrible, everything's ruined," tell yourself, "it's frustrating, and it's understandable that I'm upset about it, but it's not the end of the world and getting angry is not going to fix it anyhow."

Be careful of words like "never" or "always" when talking about yourself or someone else. "This !&*%@ machine never works," or "you're always forgetting things" are not just inaccurate, they also serve to make you feel that your anger is justified and that there's no way to solve the problem. They also alienate and humiliate people who might otherwise be willing to work with you on a solution.

Remind yourself that getting angry is not going to fix anything, that it won't make you feel better (and may actually make you feel worse).

Logic defeats anger, because anger, even when it's justified, can quickly become irrational. So use cold hard logic on yourself. Remind yourself that the world is "not out to get you," you're just experiencing some of the rough spots of daily life. Do this each time you feel anger getting the best of you, and it'll help you get a more balanced perspective. Angry people tend to demand things: fairness, appreciation, agreement, willingness to do things their way. Everyone wants these things, and we are all hurt and disappointed when we don't get them, but angry people demand them, and when their demands aren't met, their disappointment becomes anger. As part of their cognitive restructuring, angry people need to become aware of their demanding nature and translate their expectations into desires. In other words, saying, "I would like" something is healthier than saying, "I demand" or "I must have" something. When you're unable to get what you want, you will experience the normal reactions—frustration, disappointment, hurt—but not anger. Some angry people use this anger as a way to avoid feeling hurt, but that doesn't mean the hurt goes away.

Problem Solving

Sometimes, our anger and frustration are caused by very real and inescapable problems in our lives. Not all anger is misplaced, and often it's a healthy, natural response to these difficulties. There is also a cultural belief that every problem has a solution, and it adds to our frustration to find out that this isn't always the case. The best attitude to bring to such a situation, then, is not to focus on finding the solution, but rather on how you handle and face the problem.

Make a plan, and check your progress along the way. Resolve to give it your best, but also not to punish yourself if an answer doesn't come right away. If you can approach it with your best intentions and efforts and make a serious attempt to face it head-on, you will be less likely to lose patience and fall into all-or-nothing thinking, even if the problem does not get solved right away.

Better Communication

Angry people tend to jump to—and act on—conclusions, and some of those conclusions can be very inaccurate. The first thing to do if you're in a heated discussion is slow down and think through your responses. Don't say the first thing that comes into your head, but slow down and think carefully about what you want to say. At the same time, listen carefully to what the other person is saying and take your time before answering.

Listen, too, to what is underlying the anger. For instance, you like a certain amount of freedom and personal space, and your "significant other" wants more connection and closeness. If he or she starts complaining about your activities, don't retaliate by painting your partner as a jailer, a warden, or an albatross around your neck.

It's natural to get defensive when you're criticized, but don't fight back. Instead, listen to what's underlying the words: the message that this person might feel neglected and unloved. It may take a lot of patient questioning on your part, and it may require some breathing space, but don't let your anger—or a partner's—let a discussion spin out of control. Keeping your cool can keep the situation from becoming a disastrous one.

Using Humor

"Silly humor" can help defuse rage in a number of ways. For one thing, it can help you get a more balanced perspective. When you get angry and call someone a name or refer to them in some imaginative phrase, stop and picture what that word would literally look like. If you're at work and you think of a coworker as a "dirtbag" or a "single-cell life form," for example, picture a large bag full of dirt (or an amoeba) sitting at your colleague's desk, talking on the phone, going to meetings. Do this whenever a name comes into your head about another person. If you can, draw a picture of what the actual thing might look like. This will take a lot of the edge off your fury; and humor can always be relied on to help unknot a tense situation.

The underlying message of highly angry people, Dr. Deffenbacher says, is "things oughta go my way!" Angry people tend to feel that they are morally right, that any blocking or changing of their plans is an unbearable indignity and that they should NOT have to suffer this way. Maybe other people do, but not them!

When you feel that urge, he suggests, picture yourself as a god or goddess, a supreme ruler, who owns the streets and stores and office space, striding alone and having your way in all situations while others defer to you. The more detail you can get into your imaginary scenes, the more chances you have to realize that maybe you are being unreasonable; you'll also realize how unimportant the things you're angry about really are. There are two cautions in using humor. First, don't try to just "laugh off" your problems; rather, use humor to help yourself face them more constructively. Second, don't give in to harsh, sarcastic humor; that's just another form of unhealthy anger expression.

What these techniques have in common is a refusal to take yourself too seriously. Anger is a serious emotion, but it's often accompanied by ideas that, if examined, can make you laugh.

Changing Your Environment

Sometimes it's our immediate surroundings that give us cause for irritation and fury. Problems and responsibilities can weigh on you and make you feel angry at the "trap" you seem to have fallen into and all the people and things that form that trap.

Give yourself a break. Make sure you have some "personal time" scheduled for times of the day that you know are particularly stressful. One example is the working mother who has a standing rule that when she comes home from work, for the first 15 minutes "nobody talks to Mom unless the house is on fire." After this brief quiet time, she feels better prepared to handle demands from her kids without blowing up at them.

Some Other Tips for Easing Up on Yourself

Timing: If you and your spouse tend to fight when you discuss things at night—perhaps you're tired, or distracted, or maybe it's just habit—try changing the times when you talk about important matters so these talks don't turn into arguments.

Avoidance: If your child's chaotic room makes you furious every time you walk by it, shut the door. Don't make yourself look at what infuriates you. Don't say, "well, my child should clean up the room so I won't have to be angry!" That's not the point. The point is to keep yourself calm.

Finding alternatives: If your daily commute through traffic leaves you in a state of rage and frustration, give yourself a project—learn or map out a different route, one that's less congested or more scenic. Or find another alternative, such as a bus or commuter train.

Do You Need Counseling?

If you feel that your anger is really out of control, if it is having an impact on your relationships and on important parts of your life, you might consider counseling to learn how to handle it better. A psychologist or other licensed mental health professional can work with you in developing a range of techniques for changing your thinking and your behavior.

When you talk to a prospective therapist, tell her or him that you have problems with anger that you want to work on, and ask about his or her approach to anger management. Make sure this isn't only a course of action designed to "put you in touch with your feelings and express them"—that may be precisely what your problem is. With counseling, psychologists say, a highly angry person can move closer to a middle range of anger in about 8 to 10 weeks, depending on the circumstances and the techniques used.

What About Assertiveness Training?

It's true that angry people need to learn to become assertive (rather than aggressive), but most books and courses on developing assertiveness are aimed at people who don't feel enough anger. These people are more passive and acquiescent than the average person; they tend to let others walk all over them. That isn't something that most angry people do. Still, these books can contain some useful tactics to use in frustrating situations.

Remember, you can't eliminate anger—and it wouldn't be a good idea if you could. In spite of all your efforts, things will happen that will cause you anger; and sometimes it will be justifiable anger. Life will be filled with frustration, pain, loss, and the unpredictable actions of others. You can't change that; but you can change the way you let such events affect you. Controlling your angry responses can keep them from making you even more unhappy in the long run.

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© 2004 American Psychological Association

<small>[ January 27, 2004, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: 4give ]</small>

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Chris-CA123 posted this link on another thread on the recovery board regarding forgiveness:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forumlinks4.html

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She's currently getting divorced and has three young kids, so is under considerable stress from that, and obviously was greatly disillusioned by what I did. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WHOA!!! HOLD THE PHONE! THIS WOMAN IS STILL MARRIED? You realize this board is dedicated to saving marriages, right?

She is still upset about an incident that she viewed as infidelity when she was dating you and married to someone else (I mean, this was 2 years ago)???? AKA: While she was having an affair with you. You are an affair partner, what is referred to as an OM out here.

You need to break off your relationship with her until she is single.

You do realize that 90+% of marriages that result from extramarital relationships end in divorce, right? I think you need to read up on these relationships and really give serious thought to your relationship with this woman.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> even if she hasn't had sex with him in years. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Almost all married women having affairs (and probably almost as many married men having affairs) tell their affair partner that they haven't had sex with their spouse in years. The vast vast majority of the time this is not the case.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> and that she should either be working on getting divorced or fixing her marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Has either she or her husband actually, verifiably filed for divorce? Have you spoken with her husband? Does he know about your relationship with his wife?

<small>[ January 30, 2004, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

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Rollin - I am sorry for your pain and all that you are dealing with right now. It only highlights what we all know so well, everyone gets hurt when there is an affair. Affairs are addictive fantasy relationships built on deceit and destruction. They do not do well long term for those very reasons. What you are doing is having an affair. Please do the ethical, right thing, end your relationship with this woman and have no further contact with her.

MB members,

I am saddened to see your support of an affair in progress. Rollin is the affair partner of a married woman. It doesn't matter that her marriage is or was unhappy - isn't that the entitlement rationale all wayward spouses give for why they are involved outside their marriage? Rollin's affair partner's husband could very well be one of our 32,000 members desperately seeking our help to end the affair and save his marriage and here we are giving advice on how to make it work??

Ok, I'm more than saddened, I'm angry!

As members of the MARRIAGE BUILDERS board and family we are to be advocates for marriage, not givers of advice on how to make an affair work out until the marriage ends!

How can we ever hope to stem the epidemic of infidelity and divorce if we don't take a stand? Every member who read this thread is ethically bound to confront Rollin with exactly the words we tell the betrayed partner to use -

Your relationship with this woman is making it impossible for there to be any hope of saving her marriage. Please do the right thing and end your relationship with her. Whether or not her marriage is or was unhappy is not the issue. The issue is that her involvement with you makes any thought of reconciliation impossible. Only when you are out of the picture entirely can she and her husband, for whom she vowed to forsake all others, even begin to sort out their issues and problems.

If as members here we can't do that then we are not truly advocates of marriage.

Penny R. Tupy aka Cerri
Founder and Coach ~ Save Your Marriage Central
www.saveyourmarriagecentral.com 877.416.2657
International Assoc. of Coaches, Coachville, Coachville R&D Team, IAC R&D Team eWomenNetwork, Volunteer Mentor Coach Marriage Builders, Inc. Weekend Followup
It Takes A Village To Save A Marriage

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Not surprisingly, I agree.

I think the members should reflect on this question, "How would you feel if the OP your spouse was having an affair with came out on this board and was greeted by advice on how to better his/her relationship with your spouse?"

Even if you are not now a victim of infidelity, you could be at any time. Any OP showing up on this board could be having an affair with any of our members (with allowances made for gender, of course). I sincerely hope we refrain from giving them advice on how to break the marriage further by solidifying the extramarital relationship.

Even if this woman's marriage is painful and unhappy for her, she is not the only one in the marriage. I doubt her husband's life is precisely happy right now given that his W is having a long term relationship with another man.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you truly are not the reason for the demise of her marriage and there isn't any animosity between you and her husband I would suggest having a talk with him to get his perspective on why their marriage failed.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Her marriage is not dead, nor has it yet failed. She's still married, and apparently (since she's been separated for 2 years) not in any hurry to change that. She's separated. Neither does her husband seem to be in a particular hurry.

<small>[ February 02, 2004, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

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Cerri and Takola,
I'm glad you both chimed in. I kept hoping someone else would. I have great respect for both of you.

Since I was the one that responded to Rollin the most I will take the flames as directed toward me.

I tried to take Rollin at his word that he didn't start dating her until 3 months after she was separated ( separated 24 months ago, started dating 21 months ago) and seeking a divorce. He never admitted to being the cause even though I suspected that he was. Maybe I was too gentle with him, but I did advise him to not be with her until after she was divorced as well as how it would be best for her to try to reconcile with her husband. I also asked if he had spoken with her husband.

Obviously, we didn't have all sides of the story. We don't know that his husband is wanting to reconcile or not. I would hope that they would reconcile. And you are right that reconciliation is unlikely as long as Rollin is in contact with her. I hope that her husband isn't also in affair. We don't have all the facts.

I doubt if you read the whole thread. If you had, I think you would have gathered that I did not advocate his being with her while she is still married or really even after she is divorced. I can not see that relationship working at all. I was trying to get him to the point of breaking it off with her and that he advise her to work out her anger and unforgiveness in her life which includes the unfinished business with her husband (thus the article and link). I did tell him it is best for all concerned if she reconcile with her husband.

His last post did say he told her he was going to stop seeing her. That is the decision I was hoping he would come to. I tried to open his eyes to the reality of his situation and gently ease him toward doing the right thing.

I certainly could see through the typical affair nonsense that she was telling him about how awful her marriage is etc....I did suspect she fantasized about Rollin during her marriage and that she thought she married the wrong person. She probably was justifying all sorts of things. (fog)

You are right that it was an affair since she is still married. Being a BS myself: I am not an advocate of affairs.

I think he was oblivious to that fact: that his relationship with her is an "affair" since he said that she was already separated when they started dating and he didn't feel like he was the cause.

Everyone has different moral values. My own sister started dating before her divorce was final (no children involved). She wouldn't listen to my moralizing about it being wrong for her and morally: that it was adultery. Her justification was that her husband was an abusive alcoholic. He was arrested for soliciting a prostitute just before she got a restraining order on him.

She wouldn't listen to me telling her that she needed to wait a year or two after the divorce before dating. She didn't agree with my advise. She thought I was lecturing her as if she was one of my children. She was 52 yrs old at the time.

I don't know if Rollin it still lurking since his last post. I hope he sees your posts. I hope he followed through with his plan to break it off.

I hope that his reading here with help him in whatever relationship he is in for the future.

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