This is today's Musing on Marriage by Penny Tupy. She posts these to her Yahoo group regularly. This one is so good that it just blew me away and I had to share.

-----------------------------------------

So Did You Mean It When You Said…..
© Penny R. Tupy 2004

"For better or worse, in sickness and in health, for richer or poorer, til death us do part."

Most of us said something very like that when we took our wedding vows. And most of us took those vows in front of family, friends, and a representative of our God in our faith community. And not only did we say those things in that manner, but we spent an awful lot of time, effort, and money getting to the moment when we did so.

A wedding is a lot of beautiful ritual and tradition – not to mention yards of lace and tulle, bushels of flowers, and layers of cakes – with one thing being the defining center which ties it all together. The vows. Those few words about sickness and health, better or worse. So I'm wondering. Did you mean it?

When all was said and done, the dress bought, the cake baked, the tux fitted and the DJ hired – did you mean it? The part about sickness and health, better or worse? How about the richer or poorer part?

Every week at least one client, and usually several more than that, tells me that they just can't do it anymore, that they have to file for divorce. It could be that they've discovered their spouse is addicted to drugs or gambling. It might be that he or she is oblivious to my client's needs in the marriage. And, because I specialize in infidelity it is often because the spouse is having an affair and the pain is tearing the heart out of my client, the person they once vowed to love and honor and cherish, forsaking all others.

Whatever the cause of the pain, it is very real and very heart wrenching. This is when the chips are down and we see what it is we are made of. Hardship is no joke and our natural instinct as humans is to survive – to remove ourselves from the pain and the threat it makes to our happiness and security. Run! Get out! Save yourself! Our emotions and our instincts give us a hearty push and our friends and family are not far behind.

If being married was easy, there would be no reason for taking vows. Vows are something we take in order to show our commitment to some aspect of life that is difficult to perform or carry out. Vows are promises that show our determination to go against the flow when it seems going with the flow is the only option available. Remaining true to our vows in the face of pain and tragedy is what makes us fully responsible adults in a world that lauds irresponsibility. Staying faithful to promises we made forges the steel in our souls.

"But she isn't honoring her promises." "He never treated me with honor and now he's living with someone else." "I have a right to end this marriage because of what he has done to me." Funny thing about the promises we make at weddings – they really aren't about what the other person does or does not do. Our wedding vows are all about us and our commitment to the marriage. A commitment that is explicitly stated to be not only in times of joy and laughter but in the deepest darkest moments of our lives. A commitment to stick it out come hell or high water regardless of the pain and suffering. Til death us do part.

I also know that there comes a time when we need to concede defeat. When the courts and the legal system cannot be fought or when it truly happens that the marriage cannot be saved. But these are decisions that should me made in the cold light of rationality after every option has been tried and has failed. And I would say that includes at least a year of separation and no contact before coming to that decision.

I know that many of you are suffering and fighting against seemingly insurmountable odds in your marriage right now. It seems that the easy and perhaps only way out is to end the marriage. It seems incredibly unfair to watch the days and the months go by wondering when you will have a life again. It is for moments such as these that you spoke those words and sealed your promise of commitment in front of witnesses. So I just have to ask one more time, did you mean it?

All the best,
Penny

Oh, her Yahoo Group is at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Save-Your-Marriage-Central/. I like it a lot, but then again, what's not to like about getting this kind of thing more days than not?

J,

I just read this...I get them delivered in my mailbox, and it brought me to tears, particularly given what I just emailed you about.

I want to remain there...in sickness and in health. I meant it, oh, I meant it. If not, I would not still be here after these many months. I am trying so hard to hang on, but after this length of time it is getting to the point of near hopelessness.

God help me to do so!

Thank you for sharing this J. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Yes, I meant it too. I believed in my vows, and I am proud to say that I did everything I could do to save my M.

I like that the article reminds us that we are only responsible for OUR side of the commitment. It truly is the higher road, and well worth the travel.

Karen

JustJ - I've never thought of my decision to stay in this marriage and rebuild it as "I meant what I said" with regards to vows. But maybe I did.

I was married prior to this M. I went into that M thinking "if it doesn't work out, I can always get divorced." Sad and immature, but true. Two years later I wanted out.

When my current H proposed M, my response was "if it works, don't fix it." Our living arrangement at the time was working well, let's just leave it be. He was very persuasive and we've been married nearly 24, together 26. I NEVER EVER, not before we were married or since we've been married, thought "if this doesn't work out I can always get divorced." I now realize we both have always been committed to this M - the A wasn't about that and hasn't changed that. "In sickness and in health" has been tested and we're still together. "For richer or poorer" has been tested and we're still together. "For better or worse" has now been tested, and we're STILL together. Our feet have been held to the fire time and again, and we find we really meant what we said.

...nev

<small>[ January 19, 2004, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: Never Alone ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by JazzeyGirl:
<strong> If only my H knew what the true meaning of vows were then I wouldn't be sitting here reading this post.

I guess not all marriages have the fairytale ending.

~JazzeyGirl~ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No they don't but you might want to read another of my Musings that talks about that.....

There's no such thing as a fairy tale ending in real life - only hard work and hopefully, eventually more good days than bad.

Musing on Marriage ~ Marriage and The Remodeling Project
©Penny R. Tupy 2004

My husband, Steve, and I bought our home here in Wisconsin almost exactly four and half years ago. After nearly two years of looking in five different states and insisting that we did not want or have time for a ‘project’ we excitedly bought a house that needed just about every type of work imaginable. To give you an idea of the extent of our new project <sigh>, our house came with no kitchen (there was an empty white box of a room designated as such but that was it) and none of the four bathrooms was fully functional. That was the tip of the iceberg.

Now being the pragmatic realists that we are <rolling eyes here> we not only began to tackle the kitchen and the bathrooms and the other necessary tasks but we took on some purely aesthetic changes as well. I want to tell you about one of those and how it relates to this idea of marriage and pain and all those things. (And, in case you did not get this at the time I wrote the Popcorn piece – I can make just about anything into a piece about marriage.)

Once Upon A Time there was a Stairway. A functional and perfectly sound Stairway that had only the flaw of Incredible Ugliness. (Really, I’m not making that up – it was uuuuggggly) This Stairway lived in the heart of our home going from our family room on the lowest level to the living room on the main level and then continuing in all its Ugly Glory up to the game room in the loft.

The Stairway was so Ugly that it turned our eyes from the projects that needed to be done and sang a Siren Song of ripping and tearing and dreaming. We were here less than a month when we saw The Picture. A big beautiful glossy full color Picture of a stunning spiral staircase. It called our names and pulled us from the warmth of our bed in the wee hours of the night. We raced to the site of the Ugliness, our eyes glazed over as we envisioned what It Could Be. Spiral, winding its way sinuously up through three levels. Beautiful.

Like all dreams of turning Ugliness into Beauty the Stairway Project, as it came to be known, took far more effort than we could ever have dreamed. It required at least a year and a half of planning just the structural support that would be needed. During that time we were consumed with researching the various spiral staircase manufacturers and comparing each and every aspect of their wares.

Before we could begin to create the new we needed to tear out and remove the old. It was two more years of hard labor on everything but the Stairway itself. Our loft became inaccessible for nearly two years as the Old Stairway found its way in pieces onto the Funeral Pyre of our bonfire pit. Three levels of flooring needed to be pulled out disposed of and then replaced. Two levels of ceiling needed to be installed and finished. Two levels of walls needed new sheetrock, mud and paint. One window and three structural wall supports had to be added. And along the way were various Adventures such as the Great Fall which pulled us off course and reminded us that control is an illusion.
When all the prep work was done, the tiles laid, the wood floor sealed, the balusters installed and finished at last the stair treads themselves snaked up the center pole. After more than four years of dreams and nightmares it all seemed rather anti-climactic. They took less than a day to attach. Finally, on this New Year’s Day in the year 2004 of the Common Era I put the final coat of finish and we held the official Ribbon Cutting on Jan 2.

It was only in the final week that all the years of effort came to a cohesive whole. More than 1600 days of destruction and mess and dust and disarray and then all at once it became a Thing of Beauty.

So what does this tale have to do with marriage? When couples come to me with accounts of pain and neglect and incompatibility they are like the Stairway Project. So much that needs to be done before it will all come together. And so often, like the ripping and tearing and dust making that we did, the steps (ha! No pun intended!) which move a marriage from ugly and painful to beautiful and gracious seem to be taking us away from that goal. The tasks and the building that need to be done seem incredibly overwhelming and the work seems to be constant without any sign of progress. And it is painful – messy and painful. And it looks much worse before it begins to look better.

It is only when we get to the .end of the rebuilding process that we see it all fall together in a way that appears effortless. When the support has been laid and the decisions that lead to a mutually wonderful lifestyle have been worked through – often with dust and debris! – suddenly out of what seems like nowhere a marriage that is beautiful and gracious emerges.

I’ve seen it in my life – in my marriage and in my living room - and I am blessed to be part of the process in others’ lives. It takes courage and vision – and that is something each of us has built into our humanness. Harness yours and see what beautiful spirals you can create.

Keep Climbing,
Penny


And....

The Danger of Fairy Tales
© Penny R. Tupy 2003

Fairy Tales, or folk stories, have been part of our human existence for time out of mind. Anthropologists tell us that the ancients made up stories about the world around them in order to explain the phenomena they observed. Millennia later the brothers Grimm made a family project out of collecting the folk stories popular in small part of the European continent put them together in a cohesive manner and voila! the era or modern fairy tales was born. Once Disney got in the act with all those darling animated versions the threat to marriages was guaranteed.

Is there anyone among us who didn’t grow up with tales of Snow White, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, and more recently for the younger crowd, The Little Mermaid and Belle the Beauty half of Beauty and the Beast? There’s a whole week’s worth of writing on the role of men and women in relationships portrayed in those fables but that’s not today’s focus. Today I want to talk about how each of those stories end.

“And they lived happily ever after. The End.”

As if the wooing and winning part was all there is to creating a relationship that works. As if once the attraction is recognized and the obstacles overcome (evil stepparents, poison apples and tentacled sea witches) the rest of life will take care of itself. As if happily ever after is guaranteed. And therein lies the danger of fairy tales.

Every day in my coaching practice couples confide in me that there must be something fatally wrong with their marriage because they disagree on some issue. That their marriage is doomed because they have days when they don’t feel connected. That they must have married the wrong person because things were going so well and then they had a fight. They tell me that there is no way they can possibly get it right with their spouse because no matter how hard they try or how much progress they’ve made things are still not perfect. They don’t have “happily ever after.”

Marriage is not about happily ever after. At least not in the sense of nothing will ever intrude or cause conflict again. Life is messy. Marriage is messy. Conflict is inevitable. It’s not the conflict that causes problems, it’s how we handle the issues which are bound to arise. Are we honest about our feelings regarding whatever the problem might be? Are we willing to put our emotional reactions on hold and craft a solution that works for both partners? Are we willing to endure the discomfort of making no move until we find one that can be supported by ourselves and our mates?

Do we really think that Cinderella, who spent her days in comfy worn out clothes singing with the birds and chatting up the mice, was really all that thrilled to dress in rigid haute couture and abide by rules for royal behavior? Do we believe that Snow White’s Prince Charming welcomed not one but seven single men with odd personal habits into their home to spend time with his new wife? Is it possible that Sleeping Beauty’s narcoleptic tendencies, not to mention her meddling godparents, caused a little friction in their newly wedded bliss?
Fairy Tales are fabulous stories. And if you love mythology the way I do the older less sanitized versions are spring boards for wonderful introspection. But defining the success of a real life flesh and blood, perfectly human romantic relationship using the concept of happily ever after is a recipe for failure. Happily ever after is possible, but to achieve it you’ll have to grab onto a hearty dose of empathy, an even bigger measure of courage wrap it all up with a sense of humor and be willing to make the right choices in the present moment. Every moment. And if you blow it this time you pick yourself up, dust off the debris, figure out what needs to change, grab onto that courage and do it all again.

All the best,
Penny

Vows are about duty, is there anyone who wants to be "loved" or married to a person who does not want to be married to them, but will honor the vow? I ask this question periodically, and very few people answer they want to be loved as a duty....

IMO human beings process and experience life through two primary mechanisms, both important, and essential to well-being. The rational side, the side that "decides"....and the emotional side, the side that "feels". If marriage is only a rational decision, then vows make sense, they are a contract a promise, and can be obeyed, no matter the cost. But if feelings are important too, nurturing, safety, vulnerability, intimacy, passion, loyalty, trust, desire, and many more...than vows cannot be the basis for marital decisions alone, because vows have nothing to do with feelings. Feelings (of the mating type)arise from the synergy between two individuals, and is a function of their temperament, psychology, and experiences. Many people are incapable of much depth of feeling (a pethora of personality disorders), or are emotionally disabled (so to speak), or their synergy is negative (rather than positive, they bring the worst out of each other). That poses a difficult decison, choosing to attempt a mating relationship caries with it the risk it will fail (not be a safe/healthy/nurturing/joyous place), if the feelings reflect that failure (that is what feelings are for, they give us feedback re our well-being), do we ignore them ....or do we listen and take action? Vows say no, you have a contract with no termination clauses....but human nature says we take whatever action necesary to protect ourselves.

To answer the question, yes I think people "mean" it, I did. However, vows are an artificial construct, an attempt to gaurantee an outcome that by it's very nature cannot be gauranteed (that a two people will both experience their interaction as a safe/healthy/nurturing/joyous place). So if vows cannot gaurantee that outcome, what purpose do they serve? IMO a very important purpose, that being ones "intent" is vest significant resources in crafting a mutually safe/healthy/nurturing/joyous relationship. The issue is how much resources, and how to assess the health of the individuals re the marriage.....these are the core issues that underly marital failure...why? Cause you cannot legislate feelings, and that's what people seem to expect from vows...it is a serious misconception.

sudfb... if there was a :barf: icon I would use it...

:barf:

JUST because we are human and not always the BEST choice of character doesn't mean that we deserve an 'out' clause when we no longer 'feel' like being married... or we no longer 'feel' love for the person that we married...

I still stand with the belief that if there is no abuse... drug use... alcoholism... then you better come up with something better than "I'm not 'in-love' anymore" to get a divorce.

"So if vows cannot gaurantee that outcome, what purpose do they serve?"

sudfb... you cannot legislate feelings... perhaps THAT is what the purpose was...

...if you truly take your vows seriously and LIVE THEM and are keeping YOUR end of the bargain... they serve to keep you from being capricious in ending your marriage... perhaps they don't keep you from being STUPID in your marriage... but there is a satisfaction--contentment-- in keeping a commitment that I don't see in those that practice serial marriage... or in those that just play house.

Cali

One thing I have often noted, perhaps over the years not conciously recognizing it, is that people seek another person to make them whole. Marriage being the end objective.

That is an unrealistic expectation. No one can make you happy they can only make you happier at best sad at worst.

Jazzey perhaps your expectations were unrealistic. Much like the kids that no longer vote because they feel their one vote doesn't count. Those kids thought they could change the world with just one vote rather than simply change their little corner of the world. And when they couldn't topple administrations or right social injustices instantly they gave up and quit voting.

Did your expections make you give up?

Yes, I "meant it", and I carried through so far. But I will never accuse someone who's ended thier marriage to a WS of "running away" or less honorable than myself. Ending a marriage to someone you love isn't exactly easy and it's not right to point fingers and turn-the-tables so to speak. If a BS does not feel the need or want to put up with the rollercoaster ride of recovery, they should be singled-out as dishonorable or of less character than others? Thats an entirely wrong and self-righteous, not to mention easy-to-take perspective from the WS. Heard it from my WW way back when and it just fueled the fire. I'm all for saving a marriage that should be saved, but not ~just~ for the sake of marriage.

M.

<small>[ January 20, 2004, 04:22 AM: Message edited by: Mortimer ]</small>

Jazzey don't fret the thread jack.

I think expectations are all part of the "did you mean it" mantra.


Jazzey I feel your pain so I am not minimizing it.
But one comment jumps out at me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">However it was unrealistic for my H to do those things with me. He was able to do them for the ex-ow but not for me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are making what most betrayed spouses do...a leap of assumptions. Like you I got stuck on what she "could do" for OP but "wouldn't do for me".

BS's all assume it was perfect with OP. That our WSs did everything they could do for the OP. That really isn't the case in most affairs. There isn't a blank check for the OP during the affair and a roll of pennies for the BS.

But the BS is not in a position to be objective. ANYTHING done for the OP in the eyes of the BS is one thing too much...one thing done at their expense.

Find some peace in knowing that were not as tilted to the favor of the OP as you assume. I know it was hard in my case having a wife who for 17 years had intimacy problems but wound up in an affair. I was extremely bitter for awhile that she could do that. I took everything to mean she could do for him but not me. It wasn't nearly as onesided as I believed but at the time I wasn't willing to see things any other way.

Cerri!!! I am so glad you're back...hope all's well with you, you wonderful motivating positive-thinking person you! Glad to hear the staircase is a thing of beauty too... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Just J...good posting! I've written about this before (ie. honouring my part of the vows) and have suggested it to other BS...although now that I think about it, I'm not sure anyone has ever specifically commented on whether or not it helped them to stay motivated!

Here's my personal revelation...as I sat in a church, listening to friends saying their wedding vows while my H was off having an A, I broke into a literal cold sweat and had the overwhelming, unstoppable feeling (akin the one you feel before a bad case of projectile vomiting!) that I was going to start howling and running like a madwoman out of the church...I was in such mental anguish, my fingernails punctured the skin of my palms.

Then I heard the words echo in my mind..."love, honour and cherish". For the first time, I realized that while he had broken his vow and not forsaken others, I too had broken my vows, my commitment to the M "in the deepest darkest moments of our lives" when we were not getting along, fighting, LBing. And I decided there and then that I would do everything in my power to honour MY vows despite anything he did.

I used this to motivate myself to keep on making the changes all by myself, with no positive feedback from him...in fact, sometimes deplorable behaviour on his part...to think of him in a dark place, a place he certainly would never have chosen to be if he was in his right mind..."through sickness" was how I chose to see his behaviour, which enabled me to remain calm and give him a loving environment in which to make his choice.

I don't think of it as a fairy tale ending at all. The WS makes his/her choice and we BS have no control over that outcome. All we can do is make our own choice, accepting that the M could go either way despite this choice...I chose to honour my M vows that day in church...and it brought me great peace within myself, long before the outcome was revealed...awed

what do you all think of me sending this "Did you mean it" to the OM? He was once married and he supposedly is "religious". Think it may make him think?

JJ, SDFR, Awed:

Amazing posts. Truly something to think about.

Jazzey, I'm hurting for you and your husband both. There's so much pain there that needs to be healed. On both sides. And I think maybe that's the thing to take away from this, for you. You BOTH hurt. You've been terribly, horribly hurt by what your husband did.

And your husband has been terribly hurt by what he did, too.

The question now is, how do you both heal from it? What can YOU do (and I'd ask your husband this, too, if I could get my hands on him; kindly send him over, would you?) to help heal yourself, and to help with his healing?

The first part you can answer for yourself. The second part, well, you'll have to ask your husband on that.

And yes, it would be nice if he'd ask and answer the same questions. Like I said, send him over here and let me chat with him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

cali.. sudfb... if there was a :barf: icon I would use it... :barf:

sufdb...I agree, would be a useful addition to the icon list. Ok, I think I got your emotional response...now a few comments on your rational response.

cali...JUST because we are human and not always the BEST choice of character doesn't mean that we deserve an 'out' clause when we no longer 'feel' like being married... or we no longer 'feel' love for the person that we married...

sufdb...Why not? Just saying this doesn't make it so. I assume you would have serious problems with someone who "got" married, but didn't want to, just did it cause they thought they had a duty to do so....right? You want the feelings to be right for the marriage to take place. If that is true, then feelings count, so your position is nonsensical (and contridictory). Feelings count or they don't (as an important contributor to decision making)...which is it cali?

cali...I still stand with the belief that if there is no abuse... drug use... alcoholism... then you better come up with something better than "I'm not 'in-love' anymore" to get a divorce.

sufdb...I agree. Btw you must have me confused with someone else. I said these decisions are hard, and need to be looked at as to reason why one feels the marriage is not (and will not be) a safe/healthy/nurturing/joyous place. I did not say anything about "in-love".

"So if vows cannot gaurantee that outcome, what purpose do they serve?"

cali...sudfb... you cannot legislate feelings... cali...perhaps THAT is what the purpose was...

sufdb...I agree, and made that point, it is one of the paradigms we can choose to follow, that feelings do not matter, and we should not include them in out decision making. That is precisely why we have vows IMO.

cali......if you truly take your vows seriously and LIVE THEM and are keeping YOUR end of the bargain... they serve to keep you from being capricious in ending your marriage... perhaps they don't keep you from being STUPID in your marriage... but there is a satisfaction--contentment-- in keeping a commitment that I don't see in those that practice serial marriage... or in those that just play house.

sufdb...I agree again. You are correct, one can substitute the paradigm of marriage as a safe/healthy/nurturing/joyous place for a paradigm of duty, and pride/satisfaction in carrying out that duty (regardless of the health of the marriage). Indeed that committment will avoid the "capriciousness" you refer too...or which I might say is may be your feelings telling you you are starving to death, diminishing your self-worth, depriving others of yourself, as you pour all your emotional energy into a single-minded focus of endurance, and finding substitutes for your missing emotional well-being.

There has to be balance IMO cali. The moment marriage becomes nothing but duty, it is an emotional prison, with consequences, serious ones, resentment, bitterness, depression, stress, premature death. Vows do no include any mechanism for determining the well-being of the individuals, or whether the marriage should exist, that is why they are not complete, and are about intent, not absolutes...They serve more closely the agendas of rule-maker temperaments who comprise the largest psychological group in our species, which I suppose is why we have them in the form we do, and why folks like yourself argue they are absolute...it is a wonderful way to bind someone to you, whether you deserve it or not....and a wonderful way to singlemindedly sidestep your own worthiness as a marital partner and just figure since you made a vow you don't have to look too hard at yourself, because you can't "lose" your marriage. This is important cali, cause people change only due to pressure, for many the reality they may (or do) lose their marriage is the shock that gets their attention and effects real change, that can't happen if one is gauranteed the services of their spouse.

Tell me cali, lets just assume a world where vows can be enforced (but only on the one who "feels" unhappy..the other gets to do whatever they want)....and no matter how unhappy one experiences the marriage you are still required to meet the other persons needs, sleep with them, spend all your time with them, share all your thoughts withn them...all that stuff people now have a choice to do....but instead would be required to do....you think that is a good thing? You say well, ok, vows are not really absolute, you can divorce for abuse, alcohol, addictions...but nothing else (hey what if your spouse is a homosexual?...but anyways). So they can be neglectful, selfish, insensitive, boring, manipulative, argumentative, demanding...need I go on cali?


You also didn't answer the question (as most don't)...do you want marriage to just be about vows/duty? Do you want your H to stay with because he is obligated to do so, and live the next 30, 40, 50 years dutifuly meeting your needs, but would leave if vows did not prevent it. If like most, you do not want marriage or love on those terms, your arguments about vows are hypocritical...or at least confused and conflictual....But no problem, most who argue vows are absolute (except for their own self-approved list of exceptions, which everyone else must accept....sheesh), are similarly conflicted...the only difference between me and you is I have an explanation for the conflict...that being vows don't work as an absolute basis for healthy marriage....feelings are required also.