My H did not "forsake all others." Does this mean he was not "committed" to our marriage, the vows HE took? At first I belived this was exactly what it meant, what else could it mean. I also believe that neither one of us was consciously aware of our "vows" during our marriage. We weren't working together through hardships and difficulties because of our "vows," we were working together because we were committed to and valued our relationship together. If those vows had never been spoken, and our life together brought us to this same place, I honestly believe the outcome would still be the same. I struggled (and still do just a wee bit) with understanding how he valued and wanted our marriage and still had an A. It seems incongruous to me. However, if I believe as I do that it's not simply vows we took that have kept us together, than I also can't believe that his A was simply about his disregard of those vows. The sum of who my H is as a person and my H is not measured solely by his having an A. The sum of who I am as a person and his W is not measured solely by the fact he had an A while married to me and how I react to and the decisions I make because of it. Vows or not, honoring those vows or not, we are still both committed to each other and this marriage. My H's A has caused us to look at our selves, look at our relationship, our marriage and seriously re-evaluate. He made a gi-huge-ic mistake, this is not patterned behavior, and our belief in our marriage and it's future was seriously challenged. It's not just our vows that have kept and continue to keep us together, it's not just the breaking of one of those vows that will end us.

This marriage is right for us and we understand that in a way we never did before. Vows or no vows, this relationship is right for us. I know that may sound simplistic, even naive to some, but if you relate in any way to what I'm saying then you understand that our relationship/your relationship is much more than and exceeds the confines of any vows, and that the relationship itself is stronger and more meaningful than the bond or violation of any vows.

I believe that people can and do, in fact, mismarry. I don't believe that every marriage can or should be recovered. I know I mismarried in my first marriage. To have remained married simply because I took vows would have crippled me and eventually him as well. We were both very fine individuals separately, but we were wrong *together.* Together we became toxic - to ourselves and each other. We eventually understood that.

I wonder if any of this will make any sense to anyone...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by solon:
<strong> what do you all think of me sending this "Did you mean it" to the OM? He was once married and he supposedly is "religious". Think it may make him think? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do NOT send the OM that post.

I understand the line of thinking, in that most of us MBers just want to help everyone heal though the terrible disasters A's can bring. But for you to email it to the OM... NO NO NO!!!

No contact is there for a reason.

You have no reason to contact this person, as you need to focus on YOU and YOUR M... he and his M are up to him and his W.

Karen

thanks, Topie

actually cali, you are a good example of how vows work in a practical sense. Your H left, he was done, the marriage was over...and would have probably ended in divorce if you hadn't changed. The shock of this realization led to your journey of self-discovery, and change that ultimately created feelings in your H that drew him back, and effected change in him. Vows played the role of providing motivation and some time for this process to take place....capriciousness would have been your H summarily leaveing, moving in with someone else, filing immediately for divorce...etc.

But had you not changed (and I doubt you would have without the shock of a spouse choosing another human being...there is something about that kind of wakeup call that is without equal as an attention/motivation getter), even if your marriage continued dutifully, it would have been a very unhappy/conflictual place, would a lifetime of that made sense? Or after your changes, say your H did not change, but continued everything unpleasant except actual adultery....would that have been ok with you? Somehow I don't believe you cali, I think feelings are very important to you, and I don't think you would spend a lifetime in an empty, loveless, but dutiful marriage...maybe till the kids were raised, if direct confrontations were minimal....but not after that...which is why women are leaveing marriages in droves, after the kids are old enough, despite their vows, and beliefs in vows.

<small>[ January 20, 2004, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

Seeing as how sufdb rewrote his post after I read it and began my response, I'm going to simply delete my response in its entirety. I'm glad you changed much of what you wrote, sufdb. It was ugly.

<small>[ January 20, 2004, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: Just J ]</small>

The message about the Staircase coming together all at once is an excellent analogy. I do think it is just about the time you give up that you see an amazing ray of hope. Maybe something to do with you changing your perception or backing off a little bit. If you are so consumed with analyzing your situation you may miss the positive developments that may very well be taking place.

I also think there is an attitude on this thread that I would NEVER do that. And I honestly think that is a very, very naive position to take. The shoe could JUST as easily be on the other foot. I think if nothing else I learned that in my 3 years here.

jj, I gather from most of your response, and the forays off the track of the specific points I made indicates you didn't understand me. I am not sure if that is my problem or yours, maybe both...but thanks for your comments. If you have a specific question (other than the one below), please feel free to ask. As for my take on your response, it was the typical confused remarks re vows are really absolute...but no they really aren't, and btw I have no way of determining anything re whether a marriage is working or not in terms of whether it should end...

Let me ask you a specific question....do you think divorce is a legitimate choice if you decide you do not want to live in an intimate relationship with your spouse? Saying no, means vows and marriage are an abosolute no matter what the actual circumstances of a marriage are...correct? If you say yes, then what are we arguing about? That is the only point I am making here essentially...that vows are about intent, not about duty or obligation. That a marriage succeeds or fails on it's own merits, and that is judged by assessing the well-being of the two individuals in it....something each has to assess for themself...correct?

jj asked..So, sufdb, do you really think you furthered your cause here?

sufdb...My "cause" is understanding the nature of marriage, engageing in dialog with others in pursuit of that goal, and putting this knowledge into practice in my own life....so yes, I think my cause was furthered. How about you? Did your reply to me further your cause here?

jj...Did this help anyone understand your position or bring anyone over to your point of view?

sufdb...I am not a politician, I have no agenda of persuasion. And I suspect (based on past feedback) many find my (and similar efforts by others) participation in such discussions useful in understanding their lives.

jj...Was it honest in your expression of the emotions you felt upon reading Cali's posting? Did it allow for and encourage an honest dialogue about extremely important concepts?

sufdb...I think so. And cali has a long history of desireing honest response, and an interest in discussions about behavior...as well as a track record of being able to control herself when she is in a discussion that can get volatile...as do I. There are some who are incapable of such discussions and I avoid them. My views (and efforts to get people to actually think about why they believe what they believe, as well as be able to logically validate it) are irritateing to some temperaments, rule makers especially (but not all of them), I always say what I honestly think, even when I know some will use it against me, so yes the dialog was honest, and the concepts are extremely important...I think that was clear from my posts.

jj..What was your goal, here, and did you achieve it?

sufdb....allready answered.

btw, I could respond cut and paste re the numerous places you elaborated on what I said, or put spins on that I did not say, in order to make your points.... you can't do that, you can only respond to what I said, otherwise you are just talking to yourself...there is no point in further elaboration....I have checked my posts on this issue, and together they are clear enough...so I don't know what to elaborate on unless you ask a specific question that is actually realated to exactly what I said....not some elaboration I didn't say. But I did "get" that it was a vent of sorts about marital partners who don't take their marriages seriously, and I do agree with that.

also btw, I did not say anything about judgeing a particular temperament type as good or bad (rule-makers...or gaurdians using the myers-briggs (I think) nomenclature). I simply noted why vows are viewed differently according to temperament, and why our western version of vows tends to be duty oriented....as opposed to say functionally oriented. All temperaments are valuable and needed in the mix that is our species (or they wouldn't exist)...but the decisions and behaviors of each temperament will vary, and can be in conflict as each "promotes" it's analysis and solution.

"The moment marriage becomes nothing but duty, it is an emotional prison, with consequences, serious ones, resentment, bitterness, depression, stress, premature death."

See sudfb... I think this is where those who become WS diverge from those who don't. Those who become WS make it ALL about feelings and their spouse.... they don't fully recognize that they own 1/2 the problem... and that it may have started w/ them and their inability to find contentment WITHIN themselves.

yes, I changed... I changed the way I reacted to my H... but I did not change the fundamental person I am... and H also changed... he finally recognized HIS part... or rather his lack of participation in our marriage...

It takes TWO sudfb to make it work... I just think that MANY, maybe most don't REALLY earn their way out of the marriage...

...and that does NOT mean that I disagree with divorce... I CELEBRATED the day my mom divorced my second stepfather... he was an evil man...

...but you always fall into that "fit" argument..... well you are 1/2 of the 'fit' what is your responsibility to try to fit?... how did you change? I think you have explained how you lived prior to ... but then? after?

You focused on how "I" changed... but NOTHING would be working now if my H had stayed the same as well... he is HIMSELF only on steroids... amplified somehow... and I think he would say the same for me...

We MET each other half way...

God is on the throne of our lives... we are loving and giving towards one another... forgiving... there is TRUTH and GRACE in our relationship...

I hear so often in unrepentant WS posts that VOWS are a prison that kept them married to a spouse who no longer fit and for whom they no longer had feelings. hooha... it is a prison of your own mind... love is a decision not a feeling... and what have YOU done to 'fit' lately?

Cali

cali...See sudfb... I think this is where those who become WS diverge from those who don't. Those who become WS make it ALL about feelings and their spouse.... they don't fully recognize that they own 1/2 the problem... and that it may have started w/ them and their inability to find contentment WITHIN themselves.

sufdb...cetainly sometimes cali, but that is not what I am discussing. The issue is what are vows, how do they work, we are talking about principles and how they work, and what the consequences are. You are taking the general and making it specific then using the specific case to prove the general case, that doesn't work. IMO infidelity is irrelevant, nothing but a symtom, of a dysfunctional individual OR a dysfunctional marriage. Absolutely both individuals (often, maybe even usually) contribute to the "unhealth" of the marriage...that indidelity oft times is one of the primary indicators a marriage in serious trouble, it really makes little difference who the bs or ws is....you have 50+ year marriages with no infidelity that are absolute emotional wastelands, or abusive, or alcoholic/addictive whatever. With neither one owning any of the problems. I promote healthy marriage cali, not just the continued existence of marriage. That means one must have some kind of means to assess marriage.

I by no means think it is all about feelings, quite the contrary, one should exercise a lot of rational oversite re emotions. Emotions are an ineffective way to choose an action...but a good (and very necessary) way to realize action needs to be taken. I find myself having to remind people emotions do count, you ignore them at your own peril, and invoking vows to trump emotions is foolish, and doomed to fail as means to resolve marital disharmony. It is a misunderstanding to conclude I am promoteing running about making emotional decisions.

cali...yes, I changed... I changed the way I reacted to my H... but I did not change the fundamental person I am... and H also changed... he finally recognized HIS part... or rather his lack of participation in our marriage...

sufdb...I think I made that point. And as well, your H decided (and felt) he wanted to stay, so he did, and you both changed in ways you felt comfortable with....once you were motivated to do so. For you two, that worked...for others those changes (or lack of, could be either) may just make it more clear the marriage doesn't work. If so, what does one then do about vows?

cali...It takes TWO sudfb to make it work... I just think that MANY, maybe most don't REALLY earn their way out of the marriage...

sufdb...what does that mean? I agree one should do the self-introspective work to assess what one wants to change, and then do so...and I agree that is not often done. Some leave marriages without knowing why....but cali, people also stay in marriages without knowing why....and wonder why the marriages fail, or limp along unhealthy and depressing...but hey vows were kept, so that's ok for some....not me. You are also correct (obviously) it does take two, and if one does not want to continue on...what then? Vows require they stay, no matter what, that makes no sense, and that is what I am addressing.

cali......and that does NOT mean that I disagree with divorce... I CELEBRATED the day my mom divorced my second stepfather... he was an evil man...

sufdb...ok, he was an evil man....what if instead of evil, they just didn't fit very well, and tolerated each other...would that have been ok? Or did you want your mom to be happy?

cali.....but you always fall into that "fit" argument..... well you are 1/2 of the 'fit' what is your responsibility to try to fit?... how did you change? I think you have explained how you lived prior to ... but then? after?

sufdb...how can anyone assess that for another. It is an intensely personal process. But you make this general discussion specific...ok, I will answer. IMO I did everything I was willing to do in the course of my marriage to make it work in a safe/healthy/nurturing/joyous manner. My spouse feels the same about themself...at that point the marriage was still dysfunctional, it could have continued on by means of vows alone... and been a lonely bitter place for us both, that seemed pointless. I put a lot of effort into understanding us both, why we do what we do, and how we interact together. I could not be (and had no interest in) being the person my spouse needed me to be....I wasn't going to change my fundamental being....nor could she. Who I am seriously annoys, and distressed her. Her efforts to "fit" me likewise were ineffective, it is not who she is. Caring, goodwill, and responsibility can be the basis for a relationship, but cannot be the basis for marital relationships...unless all that counts is duty...and as I have been trying to illustrate no one really wants a dutiful marriage, feelings (or fit) has to work also.

The trouble with arguments about "trying" and owning your "1/2" is that they are often used as excuses to keep people in marriages regardless....you have never tried "enough" changed "enough", met your spouses needs "enough". When is enough cali? If we invoke vows, it is never enough, it is a lifetime of trying, there is no such animal as a marital mistake.... That seems like an end run around saying feelings count, but not really.

cali...You focused on how "I" changed... but NOTHING would be working now if my H had stayed the same as well... he is HIMSELF only on steroids... amplified somehow... and I think he would say the same for me...

sufdb...I think that is what I observed....but feelings were very much involved in this process...correct?

cali..We MET each other half way...

sufdb...That is a nice sentiment, but nothing in life is 50/50. However, your changes and his changes both of which resulted from the crisis precipitated by the infidelity, created an emotional climate that both of you felt wanted to continue the marriage...so you did.

cali...God is on the throne of our lives... we are loving and giving towards one another... forgiving... there is TRUTH and GRACE in our relationship...

sufdb...ok, that is nice. But you still both want to be married...correct? So it is about feelings.

cali...I hear so often in unrepentant WS posts that VOWS are a prison that kept them married to a spouse who no longer fit and for whom they no longer had feelings. hooha... it is a prison of your own mind... love is a decision not a feeling... and what have YOU done to 'fit' lately?

sufdb....Your many posts are chock full of feelings yet you insist love is only a decision. Why? I am not sure what you mean by unrepentant spouses (perhaps you mean those who do not realize an affair is a poor choice). Vows are only a prison when they are the reason two people remain married if they do not want to be. Btw making love a "decison" is a two-edged sword...if that is so, one can decide not to love as well. That reduces love to a contract between giver and taker, is this a good deal, is there a better deal elsewhere...yada yada yada....I think removing feelings (and what they tell us) from how we assess our well-being is a serious mistake. I understand feelings are annoying to many (although we seem to want feelings if they are positive and directed at us), but removing feelings from relationships makes little sense to me....how about you?

Romance and feelings are a nice side benefit... but they don't pay the bills... they lie and they aren't trustworthy...

1/2 empty... 1/2 full

prison... promise

It's all just so many words... poofy... hot air... smoke and mirrors...

My marriage sucked. I wasn't a nice person. My H was irresponsible. We could have divorced and spent the requisite 2.5 years getting over the divorce... put our kids in therapy to deal w/ their feelings... We could have gone back into the dating scene... we each would have had the boys 182.5 days per year... could have spent the next 50 years avoiding each other and tolerating each other @ assorted life events the boys experienced... and it all would have been 'okay' 'cause for 5 years of our marriage we were pretty terrible to each other and no longer 'fit.'

BUT... we BOTH took our vows seriously... and probably MORE because of them than the kids... stayed together... BELIEVED the 'what God has joined together let noone tear asunder...' and we worked at FITTING... a funny thing happens when you let go of resentment and are loving and forgiving towards someone... you begin to ACTUALLY feel it... when you let go of the idea that the vows are a prison... but are a promise...

If you want a loving marriage... you have to be loving... and you have to be loving without strings.

You make your own prison with resentment and strings.

Cali

It worked for you, and vows served the purpose I suggest, that being giving some time and motivation while assessing oneself, and ones marriage when the inevitable crisis appears. Each marriage is differnt cali, different people, different circumstances, different expectations, different synergy...some bring out the best in folks, some the worse, and everything in between. I am happy for you cali, happy you have the safe/healtny/nurturing/joyous place you want, and the good feelings about it. Be great if that is how it worked for everyone, it is what we all want, hope for, seek... but it is not as simple as just "decideing" or "settling", our feelings make sure we make the right decisons....even though we have to be careful they don't confuse us into making the wrong decisions. Ya know cali, it would be easy if life were simply a matter of just "do it", but it's not, and there is little purpose to living in the intimate relationship we lable marriage if it diminishes rather than enriches the lives of the people in it.....putting up with each other for the sake of the "picture" makes no sense...why be married if that is all it is?

btw, one can act caring and loving without being married, we do it all the time to family, kids, friends, even strangers...that isn't what this is about. I agree we should act loving, whether married or ex's. Thx for your comments.

also btw the prison thing was an analogy demonstrating the outcome making marriage about vows alone. In my case, I made my choices, made the best of them, and did not consider myself in a prison, nor do I have/had any resentment. But I did understand my life was what I made it, and would continue to be what I made it. I am very unhappy my marriage was not a safe place for either of us, and ended as it did, but that was preferable to living another 30 years of arguments, avoidance, irritation, and disappointment....or a forced kind of contrived compatibility. Was I wrong, I dunno....was she, I dunno that either...but I do know I had done as much as I was going to do....and she said the same, and backed it up with a request for divorce...I didn't disagree...seems 20+ years was a fair enuf effort to me, enuf was enuf.

<small>[ January 21, 2004, 02:37 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>