I have decided to try something new, do a 180 I guess. I am going to use all the control I can muster and stop making any references to his A's, and all the related nastiness.

I guess I feel H does not really "deserve" my efforts...given that I soooo hurt and furious at his treatment of me and repeated affairs.

But the thing is, I am NOT feeling any better as time goes on. I am simmering, stewing, brewing....bubbling...with badness. What to do? I am the one always suggesting to people that, when something is not working: try something different.

What will being "nicer" to H do for me? Well, I really hate the nasty, mouthy angry Eleanor....so maybe I will like myself a bit better. Also, isn't the theory: show WS some respect and good behaviour, and then see if the spouse can show you some of the remorse and understanding you crave?

I am totally out of ideas. I suppose one could say I am "immaturely" holding onto ton and tons of anger. I feel very paranoid about H's activities. I am sooooo angry about the past.

In general: H and I limp along...not moving forward. I don't know what I am waiting for to pick a path. I feel frozen, afraid of deciding to stay or leave. One thing is certain, I get no "satisfaction" out of showing him all my hurt etc over his A's. It's so unfair...all of this.

Another thought: I was reading Dr. Phil website today about how a person, a man in this case, can change the whole atmosphere in his home and relationship by deciding to give the affection etc that he wants himself. This is of course a fundamental element of MB: give the love (meet the needs) and behaviour you hope to receive. I used to believe this wholeheartedly...but I cannot get around the simple fact that sometimes you can do that...and it sooo does not work. It's not a recipie for change unless the other party is on board.

So, really...what is the point of going out on a limb all the time just to get cut down? My Taker is alive and well, thank you very much!

Hi Eleanor.
The following link just might be the answer to where to go next in your marriage!
I don't know how to add a link, but go to page 5 and scroll down to the topic requesting a link to Carol's story.
It is quite amazing!

After reading it, come back here and let us know what you think.
Sincerely, Rachel

(Carol and the 180)

<small>[ January 20, 2004, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: MakeYourOwnSunshine ]</small>

Rachel,

Thanks for your post. I love Carol's story, and have read it for inspiration a few times. The irony is that I did a pretty darn good job of a Plan A and B myself awhile back. I managed to get the A out of the closet and H decided to end it with OW2...he wanted me back...wants our family etc.

Now I find myself shooting everything down. Suffering the after-effects of it all. H has really messed up, and I cannot go through all this again. Is he changed? Can he change? I obsess over these questions.

I think I changed. I did alot of what Carol did. Got my own life...did not pursue. Maybe one thing I should have done better was to make sure BIG changes were made before he got his foot back in the door...but it's too late for that now.

I want to feel safe and secure again. I want to be able to be vulnerable again. It's like an impossible dream.

Hi Eleanor

I'm sorry to see that things haven't fundamental changed for you since your last post.

I can only give you perspective from the other side - and I know I did not repeatedly let my H down as your H has you. However.....

For 4 months after d-day, I lived with a very angry BS. For 1 month he was still in Germnay. I am not saying he didn't have a right, but I didn't deserve the constant abuse. Phone calls in the middle of the night, foul mouthed comments about what a w***e I was, graphic comments about how I must have enjoyed sex with OM, the snooping and then the abuse (although there was nothing then to hide, it was past things found) and then the physical, a phone slammed in my face on the day X returned from Germany.

How did I feel? Almost justified for what I did. Not once did I hear "I truly love you and together we can work this out". All I heard were accusations, abuse, tirades. I wanted to walk most every day. I became defensive and angry back. Did he know me so little that he didn't know how truly sorry I was for making such a mess of everything? Did he not see (admittedly it took a couple of months) how I would have tried anything to make it work? Did he not see when I was pushed to the very edge by his behaviour (when he was arrested and cautioned for harrassment of OM) when I believe I had some sort of breakdown that I couldn't do anymore than I already was?

I know this isn't you Eleanor (my situation), but I know this is getting to you so very badly. I don't want your H to end up feeling like I did - resentful, angry, defensive, not caring. Now we are DV'd, if I ever see Pound Man again, it will be too soon. I spent 12 years with him, and now, I dislike him. I'm still angry with him, I still haven't forgiven him for the abuse in our M. I find it very difficult to think of anything positive about him.

You are right, something has to change for you, your H, your family. Maybe Eleanor, you can't forgive him. Maybe you can. I don't know, but I do know you will grind yourself into a pulp if something doesn't give.

Thinking of you and wishing you well.
Lisa

Lisa,

Your post really got me. I read about some of the things your X did...part of me recognizes those actions/words. Oh I am not proud of some of the things I have said to H. Another part of me sympathizes alot with your H...he was demented with hurt...he did not know how to feel better. Just like your affair meant more about you and your issues, H's acting out means alot about how he "interpreted" your actions...what it means about "him" to have his wife do that, etc.

I guess I am trying to say: yes I am furious at H, but what he did, especially recently, has really thrown me completely off balance with respect to how I feel about me, the world etc. I rage against that to some extent I guess.

No, it is still not acceptable to treat him disrespectfully, but sometimes, honestly, I think: why not? Does he deserve better? Why?

I know I am pushing him away when I rage...a big part of me really does not care. Sad but true.

Let me ask you...if he had been able to show you some kindness and respect...would that have made you feel like: "yay, this is going under the rug!", or "good we can move on now", or "Oh great he's really not that pissed" or "well, I guess she's over that!" or stuff to that effect.

I have a sick feeling that H does not get 1% of what this has done to me. For some reason, that is not ok with me.

I guess the message is: get over it, suck it up, be nice, and move on. Why does that just stink to me?

I have a sick feeling that H does not get 1% of what this has done to me. For some reason, that is not ok with me.

I can relate to this percieved lack of remorse totally. For me, it has become the biggest obstacle to being able to heal and move on from this whole thing. In my case, I've started to wonder if my XW ever really gave a damn about me.

I've just about decided though that some WS's (like mine) are just too selfish or f..... up to get to the point where they even begin to understand the depth of pain they've caused their spouses. Unless they take the steps necessary to make a BS feel safe again, it won't get better.

Hi Litch!

When I read your post I see how much "healing" still needs to occur with you. One thing I take away from your experience is that even divorce does not heal a BS. Personal recovery has it's own schedule and does not care of you are divorced or not. What stage are you at with all this?????

I have thought about the traits of a narcissist. I am sure I am not the first on this board to have thought their spouse might be one. But do you think a total inability to show or feel empathy might indicate narcissism? Or, is it just that what I/we think would be an appropriate demonstration of regret is just not BS's style?

My H always held his cards close to his chest...emotionally speaking. Why should he be any different now?

I just got back from having lunch with H. We both work downtown and I agreed to meet him for a fancy restaurant lunch. I vowed to behave, and I did. I decided not to say anything about A's at all. I edited my thoughts like crazy. Lunch was nice. I guess it went well. Is it fair that I have to pretend and edit? no. Why should I? Just so H can have fun and feel good?

Anyways, I still am glad I was able to control myself.

E

Eleanor-

Hey, glad to read that you had a nice lunch and resisted the urge to LB. Being able to control your emotions is another step on the road to recovery, good for you! I've always subscribed to the idea of having some sort of activity to release all that steam - running and lifting have always done it for me, and I'm going for a absolute sprint tonight.

Where am I at in the whole process? I'm back to being pissed about things, most likely because I'm strapped financially until I get her payed off. Recently I was late with a equity payment owed to her as part of our settlement so she sends me a letter reminding me of my obligation to pay, as if I'd forgotten. I felt like writing back for her to go take a leap but managed to resist. Some days I wonder how I ever managed to get myself in such a huge friggin mess. Sorry to vent so much, just know you're not alone with those feelings. I think all BS's go through it, whether the M survives or not.

Litch,

I run alot too. No coincidence that the last 3 years have seen a very running-crazed Eleanor. The good side effect: being fit. It does help to blow off some steam.

It stinks that you are angry again at your X. I guess the triggers like $$ are bound to kick it off. It's not like you and she have anything positive to balance the negative with...since you are D.

Is there any other positive relationship on the horizon? I only ask bcs I am curious to know how/if forming a new positive relationship can help with healing. Also, I hope for you that another relationship will bring you happiness. In a way, I envy you that possibility.

Eleanor-

Yes, being angry isn't much fun but they say it's one of the healing emotions so I guess it can't be all bad. With regards to my XW, I think she's still in a fog so I try (unsuccessfully at times) to not read too much into what she communicates to me. I think she made this big mistake that she regrets and now we're both scrambling to pick up the pieces. How sad is that? Shouldn't I hate her?


With regards to other relationships, yes, I've dated some with mixed results. I'm confident that one day the right person will come along but for now, I'm concentrating on taking care of myself. I think I jumped into the dating scene a little too soon and what they say about needing time to heal, well it's true. In fact, I have a hard time imagining that I'll ever trust anyone as completely as I did my XW. That's just the way it is....

Litch,

Is your wife with OP? She is in a fog but you think she is starting to realize her mistake(s)?

I guess the dating scene can only provide temporary relief for you...until you are more "over" all this.

Tonight I snapped at H over a stupid thing. I saw his face fall. I was angry with my lack of control, and I apologized. You cannot imagine how apoligizing for such a amall thing burns me. It's like a voice in my head is going: why apologize? the guy is evil! I really don't feel bad at all, just sorry that I momentarily lost control.

I must be a very small petty person to not be able to simply apologize for snapping. I hate this so so so so so much. I don't want to aplogize for anything!!!!! GGGRRRR I so don't like H.

This all feels so so stupid and pointless and artificial. My only goal: practice control.

Eleanor-

My XW moved out west to be close to the OP going on a year ago. I'm not really sure where that R is at but I have received a couple of letters from her that indicate she's having a tough time. These letters have ranged in tone from pleasant and caring to callous and indifferent, and she was never cold or even short with anyone.

Sorry to read that you snapped but that sort of thing is bound to happen at times. I think what's necessary in your case is a new set of ground rules, something along the lines of he gets on board with the program or he lives elsewhere. Does he realize how critical it is to be accountable for all his actions, past and present? Any question you have, he answers? It's the only way to rebuild that trust and diffuse the resentment IMO.....

Hi Eleanor

Sorry not to get back sooner, but I have been out and about the last few days rather a lot.

You asked the question about how I would have behaved. It's interesting, because I was just reading another thread where someone was saying that their MC had pretty much said their case was unique. I think what we all know here is that so often with the WS there are so many similarities about the way in which they behave "fog talk", simply put. But, I think that's where it ends.

For my part, after d-day, I ended contact with OM. I hadn't found this site and didn't understand the concept of NC, but I just knew in my heart how disprespectful it would be to Pound Man. I never tried to rationalise or glamourise my A (even though I believed I loved OM), and I truly did my best given the circumstances.

Would I have thought it had been swept under the carpet, everything was OK? No, because I didn't feel that way about myself. Litchfield may probably remember some of my early posts (interesting I was re-reading a lot of them recently), but I hated myself for what I had done and who I had become. I honestly couldn't bear to look in the mirror because it was a stranger looking back. I felt such turmoil and disgust with myself, that I couldn't let it go even if he had. I remember him saying once "You don't have to aplogise anymore. I know you're sorry, I know you're remorseful, I know you regret it".

I think the difference is, he really knew that, but he didn't often give any indication that was so. I think you still doubt your H and his sincerity or not. I suspect that you don't think he's done the work or the soul searching to begin to be trustworthy to you again. Another thing X said to me was "I trust you - I know you won't do it again". He also once commented that I had become very insightful and must have been having good IC - actually I think a lot of the insight came from people here.

I remember the first weekend with the Police. I remember I couldn't stop crying. I spend the whole weekend in bed. I felt defeated, crushed, broken. I didn't know what else I could do to show him. He cared for me that weekend. He worried for me. He knew I was close to the edge. But it was only temporary. 4 days later he got in touch with OM again, even after being warned not to by the Police. That too was my fault.

I'm not making myself out to be anything special, but I really don't think I deserved alot of the verbals I got. I certainly didn't deserve the physical. I think (and people here have told me this too), I just got *it* very quickly. If you don't believe your H has, I can understand why you are looking for more.

I am glad you managed to enjoy your lunch. It doesn't mean that you have to forget how you feel, or what your H has done. But was it better to have an enjoyable lunch, with no A talk, rather than continuing to put yourself through the wringer? It's not so much about him, but about you. You're unhappy, angry, furious and with every right to be so, but it's hurting you a lot. Why not try something else, because it may not hurt so much?

Eleanor, what do you really need or want from your H to help you get through this? Have you told him, do you know yourself?

I wish I could be more help, but know that I am thinking of you and wishing you well from London.

Litchfield - it is pretty cold and rainy here, how is it in SE USA? Glad to see you're doing OK, even with the blips along the way <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Lisa

Lisa,

Thanks for taking the time to post. Your insight is valuable to me.

I cannot be the first to notice that you have a healthy capacity for self-examination, soul searching and owning up to your part in matters. As you say, you "get it".

My H says he gets it, and when I reflect as fairly as I can, I admit that he has said many of the right things. There is still defensivness at times on his part, and I think he does still have an emotional attachment to OW2. That hurts soooo much.

I guess I have to admit that there is not much anymore that he can say or do to make me feel better. Thr damage is done, and don't forget that this has been going on for awhile. He used up all his credibility long ago. I really did not htink he could do this again. I think alot of my anger is at myself for not having better judgement, for not keeping myself and kids safer.

Where does that leave me? Yes the issue right now is me. How do I just let go and live day to day...putting aside all the hurtful thoughts? I really don't know. Maybe this is the low point for me...boy have said that a million times! Only to see things get worse!

I don't think H is troubled by guilt at all. In fact, he says he is not! He says he's felt guilty for years about being a bad father and H, and that the guilt was one of the reasons he had the As! He wanted to escape those feelings of guilt. He says if he allows guilt back into his heart, he will end up being angry at me and defensive! What do you make of that???? Talk about a freakin mess!

I feel very nervous around him, cannot relax and sleep in the same bed as him...I am so aware of all his movements. I am exhausted.

It's hard to not bring up the A at all. SOmetimes the feelings build up in me so much...I feel I will explode if I cannot get them out. It's always a disaster when I do of course....

Oh Eleanor, I feel so very sorry for your turmoil.

OK, you say your H is saying the right things. But it's not just about what you say, but what you do - actions are more important than words - what do you need him to do to make things change, to make you feel that he is indeed beginning to get *it*?

I think because you trusted him again too soon, it will of course be much more difficult for you to trust him again - I'm guessing that you feel he had his chance, and then he messed up so badly again. If you don't tell him what you need, you must. If you don't know what you need, you must work that out. Know that he is ready and willing to try, do you really want to say in a year's time or whatever that your behaviour finally chased him off? There has to be a point somehow/somewhere/sometime when you let go.

Eleanor, I think you really need to ask yourself if you want your M or not. I can't begin to guess, but sometimes the betrayal and depth of that is so deep that whatever he may or may not do, it wouldn't be enough.

As to his guilt thing. Well, we all handle our guilt in different ways. Maybe his guilt was extreme during the A. I know I had no guilt during the A at all - weird really. Never even used to think about X. I guess because I didn't have to go home and face him, and I didn't often lie directly to him either. I think that would have made it much more difficult.

As to you, if you can't sleep with him right now - don't. You need to rest. If you are tired it will just magnify everything you are feeling. You enjoyed your lunch. How about doing more of that. Go out for a walk for an hour and promise yourself you're not going to talk about the As. How about setting some time aside during the week where you do talk about it, but in a calm and safe way?

Eleanor, if things don't change for you, I really worry not only about your wellbeing but whether you will get to the point where you push your H away without having really started into proper recovery. I don't know how long NC has been with OW2, but maybe he does still have an emotional tie, but it is you he has chosen to be with. It's that awful catch 22, if you Plan A him and be the best you that you can be,you know that tie will lessen. But right now, that is almost an impossible thing for you to do.

Gee, I don't know if I'm making any sense here. It's ramblings coming out. Maybe some things for you to think about?

Take care E, thinking of you.
Lisa

Eleanor-

I think Lisa's idea of taking some time to reflect and decide on what you want is a good suggestion if you haven't already done so. The 2 most obvious questions regarding your sitch IMO would be: (1) Do you still love him enough to envision the potential for a reconciliation? (2) Is he willing to do whatever it takes to make you feel safe if you decide to try?

It must be extremely difficult to get time by yourself with kids to care for but hopefully you can make that happen. If memory serves, you've mentioned in earlier posts how you thought you trusted him too soon after #1, correct? And your boundaries weren't clearly defined? Perhaps you can better articulate to him what it is you need and let his actions decide what happens in the future. Good luck with all of this....

PS Lisa, good to hear from you. Sounds like you're doing very well, good for you. I'm moving along nicely over here, taking things a day/week/month at a time. The weather down south has been pretty tumultuous the past few days. We're experiencing severe power outages because of ice storms!! I can't wait for all those 90+ degree days of beach weather to return...