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sohard Offline OP
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Don't now if anyone can relate, but this is where H and I are right now.

We were separated for almost a year. We had gone to two different MC before this, and were trying to change an abusive relationship. I had had an EA before the MC began. (While we were still together) Before we decided to get back together and work on our M I told my H of my EA. We both disclosed alot to each other. He never had any A's, but admitted to "kissing" other woman with no "follow-up" after. Neither one of us was happy in the M.

Since we got back together, I was still "in the fog" with thoughts of OM on occasion and he even contacted me once. It took me a bit, but I did tell H of contact and of feelings still there for OM. Continue to deal with it in counceling, and are still working.

Now, the real work has begun. Really recognizing and changing past behaviors. I don't "fantazize about OM" anymore. That just isn't a "happy" place to go anymore. Guess reality finally set it. Don't know if this will make sense, but I don't really miss OM so much anymore, but that safe place (just the thoughts, I would NEVER contact him) to escape when I am feeling so alone and scared. This also makes it harder because I see the REAL TRUE reality of the work ahead of us. H still likes to push things under the rug, and I still have to pull them out. We both have done the sweet nice things for each other. It is like the surface things are easy to change.

Now, we are dealing with the core issues that got us to such a bad unhealthy realtionship to begin with. We actually CAN NOT get past some things. I will say "ya know let's talk about this in MC this week, we need direction here" and then he replyed that "That's because Mark always sides with you" Now, I don't feel as safe sharing in MC. Granted he felt this way about our first MC. So, he got the name of this one from our minister, and he actually went alone for almost 6 months while we were separated and really likes and respects him.

I look at some of the "couples" that come to this site together to work on their M. And quite frankly I get envious and wish My H would do that same work too. He said he doesn't know what else to do. When all I do is look for resources to learn all I can. I asked him (he is very good at his job) if this were a problem in his job, would he just shrug his shoulders and say "I just don't know what else to do" or would he do whatever it took to try and find a solution. He didn't really answer.

I am sorry this got long winded. It is like the first few months we moved ahead with all the little nice things we do for each other. And now, here we are facing the CORE issues that got us here. I am scared for us. But, I also am also determined....

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Sohard,

As you know some 'habits' are hard to break as are some behaviours. We all have to 'unlearn' them by replacing them consistently with the desired behaviour. Often that doesn't happen overnight but with consisent postitive reinforcement the time lag becomes shorter until it becomes second nature.

I can understand how frustrating it must be to be giving/handing him the answers that you need and if seeming like he is doing nothing. Could your MC give you both homework so it wouldn't seem like he is always siding with you? Is your H a guy who needs it written out for him?

Be persistent, be consistent, and remember he has a lot to sift through too.

AG

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I am going to ask MC those questions tonight. The problem with "my work" is that mostly the MC tells me to stand up for myself. That I enabled H's behavior for years. To not "respond" to his behavior. My work is to not "avoid" the conflict but let H know when he hurts me, but to do it in love and honor. In the past I didn't do those things, I do better now and H sees that. But, by me standing up for myself and we just fight more. And with that being "my work" H sees it as MC taking my side. But, when I ask if he feels this way in MC while we are talking about these issues he says no..

He even said last night, that even though my words and action don't push him to feel defensive or attacked. He just feels defensive when he hurts me not matter how I approach it, and then the anger comes out.

Example: I will give a very small seeminly insignificant one. Yesterday I had called him in the moring once before class to say "hello, I love you and I know we will work through all of this" Then after class again to say "hope you are having a good day". We DIDN'T have a good night before that. Not really fighting, just stuck on some things. I didn't hear from him all day, so around 5:00 I actually got a little worried, and called to see when he would be home for dinner (he usually calls and lets me know)

He called on his way and said he was in meetings when I was in class, and that he was on his way. When he got home before I even said anything except "hi how was your day and kissed and hugged him" that he was sorry he didn't call. I told him that was o.k. He said he was free when I was in class and that he knew he would get my voice mail. I smiled (a flirty one) at him and raised my eyebrows (flirtingly) and said "your messages are always nice."

He told me later he felt attacked and defensive about not calling. I asked him if I had done anything for this feeling. He said no. I get confused..

any ideas?

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I want to add... I used to post to a VA abuse board. Gots LOTS of support and understanding, but unfortunatly lots to leave H. So much about these guys not changing. I want to be here now, because I want the support to work through this AND save my M.

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yes yes yes! I have an idea for you...emotional detachment. Has your MC suggested this?

A bit of background...recovery from A just zoomed along, no problem...for us too, the major work is overcoming past problems.

My H is not abusive (I gather yours is?) but he is a conflict avoider, gets defensive/angry even though I have done nothing, said nothing, etc. I recognize that part of your story ABSOLUTELY!

So I have some questions for you:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He told me later he felt attacked and defensive about not calling. I asked him if I had done anything for this feeling. He said no. I get confused.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">His problem. Do you agree? If not, why? If so, what do you think you NEED to do about it? What do you think you CAN do about it?

What do you do with your confusion? (ie. how do you feel? Do you worry? Do you ask questions? Do you try to figure out what you did wrong/could do better?)

awed

P.S. Is your H abusive? Physically? Emotionally?

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My H was verbally, emotionally abusive for many, many years. I was always afraid of his anger, he NEVER hurt me physically, but believe me I would pay mentally!

He has overcome some of the things. He doesn't yell at us like he used to. He doesn't contantltly criticize and his jokes at my expense are far and few between now.
(I give him lots of credit for those changes!)
His anger is though still very present. Just he gets cold and distant or gives one hurtful line.

Yes, I do see that as his problem. (refering to what you said) And as far as emotinal detachment, I am petrified of doing that. Because that is how I survived for so many years that we totally lost our way. I had actually filed for D and was to be final Jan. 3rd. So, I can't detach, yet I need to do something! I think I know what you mean though... as my MC said "Don't let him dump it in your lap, immediatly dump it back and stand that ground" Don't "take it on". Problem is, he then gets angry. hmmm I need to think on this a bit.

<small>[ January 21, 2004, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: sohard ]</small>

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Sohard,

I am sorry that I can't be of more help than your MC. My S was (and to a smaller degree is) much like yours. Part of my recovery must focus on the guilt I feel for not speaking up, for not trusting myself, for trusting. When he said it was nothing or picked on me, I believed him; or fights were all my fault (and yet most of the time it was him looking for something to fight about). He was the worst during his A.

He has changed and usually I only see his anger or thoughtlessness when I bring up needing to know details (places him back where he feels nothing but horror) Things that used to set him off, no longer do. But I also see a peace within himself that was not there a year ago; he has grown so much (he is a wonderful man).

AG

sorry gotta to dtake the kiddie to the bus.

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I'm sorry to hear of his abuse and can only comprehend how hard it must be for both you and the kids. I am going to do my best to give you some suggestions because you asked. But I do hope that if you consider the abuse harmful to you or your children, that you will consider a Plan B until he gets to the root of his problems and shows through his actions that he has changed.

Maybe A_Grace (or anyone else who's been through this) can chime in if they feel what I'm saying is wacky. I do not condone abuse...I am proceeding as if your H is grumpy and not really into M recovery...as if that is the extent of it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And as far as emotinal detachment, I am petrified of doing that. Because that is how I survived for so many years that we totally lost our way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There seems to be a perception problem with this term...I am not suggesting that you detach from reality, detach from your emotions, or anything else that is negative.

What I am suggesting is that you detach from the emotional attachment to HIS actions, HIS thoughts, HIS words. I did this during Plan A and it really worked. It allowed me to let go of HIS stuff and accept responsibility for my own thoughts, feelings, actions.

That is why I asked the further questions about what you do with your confusion. If you simply shrug your shoulders and say, "oh well, hopefully he'll figure it out soon" then that is detachment! (Nothing wrong with that...)

But if you worry, if you try to do something WHEN YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE for his problem...that is you get caught up in an endless unhealthy cycle with him.

One person has to end the cycle. Your counsellor has said you are enabling. Stop enabling. Start talking about how you feel, etc. (all the usual MB stuff about communication).

This will NOT drive you apart. It allows you the emotional space to give him unconditional love (another misunderstood phrase in my opinion). You are choosing to love him despite his current actions/thoughts/words. But you are also letting him experience the consequence of his actions.

My H has changed immensely. He catches himself, not the other way around. I am no longer the "police"...I am still responsible (as I think your C is recommending) for calling him on things but he is 100% responsible for his feelings.

Oooohhh that is so garbled: let me use your example.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He told me later he felt attacked and defensive about not calling. I asked him if I had done anything for this feeling. He said no. I get confused.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would explore with my H why he felt attacked and defensive, to see if it had anything to do with what I said. We would discuss what I said and if there was something there that was ambiguous. If we agreed there was, then we would agree on what to do about it. (Sometimes there are words that are triggers for people...usually though, it is something completely within his head!) If not, then we would have aired the problem...and HIS feelings are then HIS. He understands that I am not attacking him for not calling, so next time he feels that way, he acknowleges that this is how HE feels, not a result of how I treat him.

Meanwhile, I carry on with my life! I am not confused. The issue is not under the carpet either. He is not taking out his defensiveness in many other ways because we have addressed it directly. BTW: Negative consequences from unaddressed issues -- this was our big problem prior to the A. Even the A itself was acting-out, according to the counsellor.

Now I own my actions, he owns his. But nowhere do I feel less for him, or love him less, etc. Emotional detachment just took me out of the unhealthy cycle...left him to his own devices, to sort out his own problems.

Is that any clearer? (Uggg... probably not!)

So I ask again: what are you doing now? Is it helping? I'll pull some examples out from things you've already said to see if it helps explain my points a bit better:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "That's because Mark always sides with you" Now, I don't feel as safe sharing in MC. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Instead you could say/do: "I'm sorry to hear you feel that way. Perhaps you can raise this issue with Mark in counselling?" Then you carry right on sharing in MC. You do not adjust what you are doing because your H expressed discomfort. He can raise the issue in MC if he CHOOSES to do so. Otherwise, he can grumble at you BUT you refuse to accept responsibility for it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And quite frankly I get envious and wish My H would do that same work too. He said he doesn't know what else to do. When all I do is look for resources to learn all I can. I asked him (he is very good at his job) if this were a problem in his job, would he just shrug his shoulders and say "I just don't know what else to do" or would he do whatever it took to try and find a solution. He didn't really answer. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't be envious...put those emotions to work FOR you! Come up with a plan. Be positive, be fun, learn to spread your emotional needs around a bit more. For example, outside interests to balance the negatives from your H...invaluable! (Again, worked a treat for me.)

Do you feel you have good boundaries in place, what you expect of him to continue in the M? Or do you feel that he is in a position of power with you, because you are the WS?

Have you done a lot of reading here? For example, I can think of one post by star*fish that might really help you out. She describes how she carried on while her H was so negative in the M. recovery. And how gradually he came around.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But, by me standing up for myself and we just fight more. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope...you just need more practice (this communication thing is hard and takes a lot of practice!). You need to stand up for yourself (ie. state your feelings, your boundaries) and then leave him to it! Do not accept ownership of how he is feeling. You are in control of yourself, not him.

If you are communicating the MB way, you will not be fighting.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He just feels defensive when he hurts me not matter how I approach it, and then the anger comes out. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gosh...how hard for him! He hurts YOU and no matter what you do, the anger just HAS to come out???

Obviously only you can determine what the bottom line is on abuse. I assume you already do not take his anger/abuse anymore: "I am leaving the room now so we can both calm down". That you never discuss issues if you both cannot control your tempers.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Just he gets cold and distant or gives one hurtful line </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your job? Don't let it set you off. If he wants to be cold and distant, and make hurtful remarks...that is his choice. You can share how that makes you feel. And you can carry on with your life. Let time work to change the dynamics between you.

This may sound distant to you but it is not. It is simply giving your H consequences to his actions, but in a loving way. If you stop playing along in the cycle, he'll have to make a choice. Playing by himself is not likely going to be fun. Hopefully being with you is.

I'm going to see if I can track down star's post...it may give you a better idea of what I mean. Essentially, on a basic level, your H is behaving like a WS coming out of fog, whereas you are in the classic BS position... you are doing all the recovery work and want him to participate. Does that sound about right?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I do not often do short posts...not if the subject is serious. Let me know if any of this helps or strikes a chord...awed

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awed...

THANK YOU, your post REALLY struck a cord with me and made so much sense.

You actually put into a different perspective what our MC has said. I understand it better after reading your post.

My H is trying, I do see that. And what you said about bounderies is exactly what MC said to me last week.

I am excited about your post, it gave me a better understanding. Now, I am clear on my work! Thank you!

As far as me being the WS, he did the "power over" and kind of "punish" me for awhile, but the MC met with him alone and I think it really helped.

Thanks again for your post.. I need to read it a couple of times to let it all settle in...

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awed...

THANK YOU, your post REALLY struck a cord with me and made so much sense.

You actually put into a different perspective what our MC has said. I understand it better after reading your post.

My H is trying, I do see that. And what you said about bounderies is exactly what MC said to me last week.

I am excited about your post, it gave me a better understanding. Now, I am clear on my work! Thank you!

As far as me being the WS, he did the "power over" and kind of "punish" me for awhile, but the MC met with him alone and I think it really helped.

Thanks again for your post.. I need to read it a couple of times to let it all settle in...

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Whew! Sometimes once I get going, I am unsure what will be clear to someone else...glad to hear it wasn't as garbled as I thought.

Okay...

The post I mentioned by star*fish above is here (near the bottom of the page): inspirational story from star*fish

It describes how she got through to her H by the changes in her behaviour alone. This approach really can work.

Be patient...develop and maintain a plan. Be loving and supportive. Set your boundaries. Have fun. Let your H struggle through his own emotions, choices, decisions, etc. as he comes to grips with what he's doing and what he chooses to do in the future.

In addition, I'm posting a link on emotional detachment which includes an exercise (simple but surprisingly helpful in sorting out why you think it is better NOT to detach). I'm going to do a couple of callouts here so you can see it is NOT a negative thing at all. Again, hope it helps...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Detachment is not a cold hostile withdrawal; a resigned, despairing acceptance of anything life and people throw our way; a robotical walk through life oblivious to and totally unaffected by people and problems. Nor is it a removal of our love and concern.

Ideally detachment is releasing or detaching from a person or problem in love. WE mentally emotionally and sometimes physically disengage ourselves from unhealthy and frequently painful entanglements with another persons life and responsibilities, and from problems we cannot solve, according to a handout, entitled "Detachment." that has been passed around al-anon groups for years.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Detaching does not mean we don&#8217;t care. It means we learn to love, care, and be involved without going crazy. We stop creating all this chaos in our minds and environments. We become free to care and to love in ways that help others and don&#8217;t hurt ourselves. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The rewards of from detachment are great: serenity; a deep sense of peace; the ability to give and receive love in self-enhancing, energizing ways; and the freedom to find real solutions to our problems. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">emotional detachment

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thanks.. I have some reading to do.. Have to head off to MC right now.. Thanks for the info!!!

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thanks.. I have some reading to do.. Have to head off to MC right now.. Thanks for the info!!!

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Wow.. I just got done reading that.. Very very encouraging.

What hit home with me, is what I have been feeling latley.. That I have to learn to comfort myself. Believe in myself, and rely on myself for fullfillment.. (and God mind you BIG need for me) Actually I didn't get a chance to read this until this morning. We had MC last night. He basically said the same thing to H and I. That if H is angry, but doesn't tell me why or what I can do. I should just carry on and enjoy life. "Don't play the game" If H wants to talk or needs support, he needs to communicate that, not just act all withdrawn, and in his "cave". And he MUST NOT act out that anger on me in words or actions, or I leave the situation. This won't be easy work for me, I HATE when I feel like someone is mad at me, but if they don't or won't talk to me, then NOT MY PROBLEM! I CAN do this!! I WILL do this!

There is another part of my life that this also helped me with. I have a close friend who we have known each other for over 20 years. We were both in a bad relationship for years and pretty much raised our kids together as our H's were never there. Anyway long version short... When I decided to go back to my H and made an effort to make my M work. She didn't support that. (She saw LOTS of stuff my H did thoughout the years, and doesn't think he can/will change and is afraid of my being hurt again) Someone who I spoke to every day who was my "best friend" is now gone. But, after this I read it and guess what? If it is because and only because she doesn't support my efforts in my M.. NOT MY PROBLEM. I still love her, I still miss her, but NOT MY PROBLEM. I WILL NOT carry that on my shoulders a minute longer!! (Does still hurt though.. not sure what to do with that part)

Anyway... thank you again for your post, I have lots to work on. H had said last night, that he knows what WE HAVE to do, he is just having a little bit of a hard to "weathering the storm" to get there. Being patient with the time it will take, instead of being fixed right away!


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