My w has the two children (b-8, g-4) M-Th. She is not as bold as some to have the OM around the children, so they never see him. She only speaks to him on the phone and neglects the children in the process.

Do you think that there is a greater chance of the fog lifting if 1) the children remain with her these days and she only sees him on the weekends and holidays or 2) if I take the children everyday and she then can spend every night with OM?

I am torn. I am heavily leaning towards number 2, even though I know she will hate me even more for this (if that is even possible). But I can see in the long run it being the better thing because she will realize that in fact, her children are gone and she has chosen this guy over them. Her relationship is really weird with him. They are together but she denies him. She won't let the children see him. When I ask her, even though she has moved out, she says "he's just a friend". Yet, he sleeps over there when the children are not there. She never tells me that she wants a divorce but rather "I don't want to be with you right now" or "why can't you just wait and see how things play out? you always want things right now". It is very strange. In writing this right now, I am inclined to just sit and wait things out, but it HURTS so much just doing that; knowing her and this man is living this happy lie while the rest of the family suffers. I just don't know. I wrestle with this day and night. Last night I think I slept two hours maybe.

What do you all suggest? And what of this phone counseling? Does anyone recommend it?

Hi Solon-

Man, your wife is me all over again. for every story you share here, I have pretty much lived through it from her end.

My take on this sitch is that your wife's oM isn't around the kids because he doesn't WANT responsibility. He wants someone that will be there at his beck and call without having to deal with the imminent threat of commitment

Two approaches that will work. Both are painful and wilil take a firm conviction from you.

What I would do based on my own scenario would be quite the opposite of what your intuition is telling you. Instead of restricting the time with your kids, give her MoRE time with them. I know this sounds nuts, but think for a moment...om doesn't have involvement in the kids life. right now, the appeal of OM is an escape from the responsibility and demand of your children and marriage. Puttingthem in that family unit scenario will force conflict and stress for all. if OM is sthe toad that I think he is, he will likely back off from the family unit thing because he'll get scared to death...

scenario two-
Keeping the kids much of the time and lettingthe two of them have all of the time in the world together. This will definately escalate her A. It will allow her to live out here fantasy to the fullest. In thee short term, this is rEALLY bad for you because she will basically go off the deep end. She will become even more distant and less communicative to you. For the longterm though, if you can hold on to the dream that you envision, she will eventually start to see things differently. It might take 6 months to a year, but eventually, her fantasy will lose it's pull because she will have processed her anxiety, anger, and frustrations. she will have had the time with OM that she needed in order to see that what she wants all along wasn't him. I know that this sounds screwy. it's a WS way of thinking I guess. Wwhat I'm trying to convey is s that the statement You don't know what you've got till it's gone applies here. While she's in her addiction based FOG, she will not recognize thee Good that you both had. It's only once she is forced to lose it that sshe will start to appreciate it. That is why Plan-b works so well.

You're probably more confused than before. I guess i'm hoping that you know your W's mentality and can apply each scenario to try and predict what her reaction will be to eacjh of them.

Hope it helped.

yeah, I'm leaning towards having them all of the time. They are happier with me and they are more taken care of.

So, what was it Kily, that snapped you out of it and how long were you in the fog?

Solon - I have never had to face what you are dealing with regards to S moving out, still seeing OP, sharing of kids, etc., so realize I am writing you as someone who has never been there. But here's what I think for what it's worth...

Please don't use the kids as pawns. If your children are "better" with your W, then they should be with her. If they are "better" with you, they should be with you. Do what's best for your children in all this.

I don't know what to say about what's best in "lifting the fog" - others with experience will help you with that.

<small>[ January 22, 2004, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: Never Alone ]</small>

solon:

I like both of Kily's suggestions, and agree with NA, that you don't want 2 use the kids, or even appear 2 be doing so.

If you choose option 2, though, I think it would be smart 2 go 2 plan B at that point as well, so that you do the best you can 2 protect yourself from the effecvts of her A escalating, which I agree it probably will for a time.

"She never tells me that she wants a divorce but rather "I don't want to be with you right now" or "why can't you just wait and see how things play out? you always want things right now". "

These statements are very common fog-latin statements. And maybe you can wait and see how things play out. Maybe you can't. At some point she will realize that you have choices 2, and after a certain period of time, you may simply choose 2 end the M on your own. I doubt very much that a WS considers this possibility. In the meantime, WHILE you're waiting, you continue 2 learn all you can, okay?

take care,
-ol' 2long

Okay, 2long. I'm learning.

It has been a year since she met this guy and 6 months since she's moved out. I don't know how much longer I can wait though <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

solon

I agree, don't use the children, that would be very wrong.

If you don't know how much longer you can wait, its probably time for Plan B. I do hope you've done what you can to protect yourself financeually.

Solon-

I have to agree with 2long. if you go route 2, add PLAN-b to the mix. I also agree that the kids shouldn't be pawns. That wasn't what i was trying to convey at all.

There were several factors happening all at once which woke me up. The first was that experience I had in the mirror when I didn't recognize myself and all I wanted was to go home to my family.

The second was that X wasn't focused on getting me home anymore. He had starrted his interest with his future wife about April. I wasn't aware of it, but the effect was that he was less forcefull and demanding with his needs. That made me feel safe enough to poke my head out of my world. By then though, he was over the moon and there was no reaching him anymore.

To be honest, Every day, I still come out of a kind of fog. What I can say is that since that day last August, I have no longer made decisionns out of denial. I fully examine my choices, weigh the consequences, and make the best decision fully accepting responsibility for it. What I have learned from all of this, and fromm all ofo you at MB is that working on me is the most importrant thing. I've done so much to try and make amends...For me, there's nothing left but to let go and trust that I will be okay. It was 2 1/2 from start to finish.

The most ironic thing is that even though we are no longer in a family situation, none of the problems and issues have gone away. occasionally, I will get sosme insight into the "why's" of what caused the real problems, butu I will never get the opportunity to have a second chance for thye sake of my child.

Instead. my life revovles around his needs and what is most important for his well being. Ironicall, X is now living in thte FOG and basically making his choices based on his penis instead of what is in the best interest of himself or his child. I'm not saying this out of judgement. I realize that we all have to grow in our own way. I'm just trying to warn BS's that jump into new R's before they are truly ready.

my best advice is painful and scary - Go into Plan-B and become the strongest, happiest Solon that you can. It will infuriate her, hurt her, and wake her up.

If you don't believe that then let me tell you, there are still moments when I see X and I hurt for what we used to have. then I think about all of the negatives and I convince myself that we could NEVER fix it....but the fact that I still hurt about it 3 1/2 years later....that is saying something.

I would sit down with the kids and ask them what they want. I wouldn't give them all the info (about wanting to Plan A or Plan B) but ask them how much time they want to spend with each, when is the best time for them. You may be surprised by the answer.

Any amount of time with or without kids is going to effect W. She has a mothers guilt after all (even if it is hidden behind gfog shades right now).

I just have to jump in here...

I would not ask a 4 and 8 year old to choose which parent they want to be with. They are way too young, and are caught in the middle of a really crappy situation.

They should not have to worry about who is taking care of them or why....those decisions fall to the parents together...no matter what the extenuating circumstances.

Solon, I agree with those advocating plan B. It sounds like it's time...she needs a wake-up call.

I agree completely with Eleanor.
I would sit down with the kids and ask them what they want.
Their response will be, "We don't want you to move apart. We want to be with BOTH of you!"
Besides, by asking this you are asking them to choose sides.

but ask them how much time they want to spend with each,
"I want to spend ALL my time with Mommy & Daddy!"

when is the best time for them.
ALL the time is BEST for me!"

You may be surprised by the answer.
And you may be suprised when they end up all screwed up.

I am already in a Plan B of sorts and I don't have to sit down with the kids and ask them, they both have already told me that they wish they could spend all their time at home.

I have thought and prayed, prayed and thought over this for sometime. It is much easier for me to keep things the way it is now; I have nights where I can just lay down and thing of how messed up all of this is. I don't have to prepare lunches some nights, dinner, go over homework. It is far easier for me. But for the kids, the need direction. They need to feel loved. Their mother, last night they told me how she does not eat at the table with them, but she takes her plate and goes to her room and talks on the phone. They don't need this right now. Seeing this would only cause them to build resentment towards her.

I am filing for custody of the children and child support. I will let her know that I am not filing for divorce, that I want to remain married, but that I must protect the children from who and what she is right now.

solon:

"I am already in a Plan B of sorts"

Believe me, as one who tried once 2 make a "plan B of sorts" of my very own, there is no such thing. You either do plan B or you don't. If you're communicating with your W at all, like hearing her fog-latin statements directly from her, you're not in plan B.

With kids involved, plan B can involve logistical communication or emergency communication on a limited basis, but no R talk at all.

-2long

well, that is all we talk about when we talk. This year we have exchanged maybe...4 emails and they have all been re: the children, short and sweet. No voice communication. My tone in the email response is never angry and she usually initiates it. I think she would much rather not talk to me, so I just oblige her. It is sad and it is hard knowing she does not want to talk to me and that she is talking to this clown every night, but...what can you do?

She was such a SWEET person at one point. Seriously, 2long, you would not believe how sweet she was. Soft spoken. Always smiling. Tender. She is an animal now. Short. Argumentative. Hateful. Disparaging. Loose. Maybe she was always like this, but I cannot imagine that to be the case. We met at age 15 and she was sweet then (I was her first, you know). Maybe my behavior in the early years of marriage changed her. Who knows. Maybe they (her and Randy) may defeat the odds and end up living happily ever after. It can happen you know? I don't think the children will ever accept him though. They know who he is and they know he is much to blame for mommy not being home. She will have to force him on them if they were to get married. But you know, I believe that she just may continue in this sick relationship with him until she finds someone else; just using him to fulfill her most basic needs; admiration, sex, affection. Then, when she meets someone she'll drop him and marry the new guy. Either way I don't think she is coming back my way. Oh, well.

That was very therapeutic getting all that out. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

The idea of treating children like happy little idiots just cheezes me off. We make all the decisions for them and then wonder why they can't make good decisions when they are adults. Heck, even a 2 year old has opinions about his/her life, and most of them are OK.

Let's get this straight, no matter how much we want to protect children, they are the one's caught in the middle of a D. And if decisions are made about their life, why not include their opinions in our decisions!!!

Go ahead, assume you know what your kids want, then don't sound surprised when they tell you later what they really wanted.

I have been an advocate for children, and they are the FIRST ones I ask for what they want. Granted, what they want may not be what is best, but I sure will try to work towards giving them what they want within safe guidelines.

If kids didn't want to see or talk to a parent, would you force them? If kids wanted to see or talk with a parent would you keep them from that...even supervised?

What are the priorities here? To save a M at any cost? Even at the expense of children?

Alright, climbing off soapbox, sorry for hijacking the thread.

solon:

good for you!

Re sweetness: My W was very sweet when we met, and for at least the first 7 years or so of our M. She says our M was "pretty good" for the first 15 years. I remember one night that I met her and some bible study friends of hers for dinner after I got out of church (she was a fundamentalist Christian and I was a Christian Scientist). I was delayed for some reason I don't remember, but showed up while they were still outside waiting to be called. I still remember the pretty sweater she was wearing that night, over 29 years ago. She was worried I wouldn't show up, but her friends kept saying "oh, he'll be here!" We were both delighted 2 see each other. Like it had been weeks, but it had only been about 24 hours.

During her 12-yr A, she was short, bitter, snapping at everyone, always creating busy-work, critical of marriage and amarous people in general. I couldn't make any headway, and never knew why. And she would say she tried 2 reach out 2 me, and never got through...

Since last summer, though, I've been seeing the sweetness re2rning. I still have my down moments, but they're not as oppressive as they used 2 be, even just 6 months ago.

You'll get there 2, whether you get back with her or just coparent with her. I have confidence in you.

-ol' 2long

Did you say 12yr affair? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Or was that meant to be 12 month affair?

Yeah, part of me deep down believes she will come back and we will make it work; in just thinking about us and how we used to be. But when I think of her now...I have my doubts, especially with the OM right there. Oh, 2long, you just won't believe this guy! I told you how I called me at work to tell me he will not back away because she needs him and he's like her therapist. Yuk! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> If I was the slightest bit out of my mind...and many of days I come near that, I think I would...I better not say. But I detest him.

So are you and your wife back together now?

solon:

12-YEARS.

She never left. She and Rat Meat met at work and went 2 grad school 2gether. RM consulted for my W on her job that she quit in July. They were mostly EA, PA about a half dozen times over the first 4 or so years. Break of about 5 or 6 years when he moved out of state with his W and kids, then EA (PA 2wice) resumedabout 3 years ago. I found out 2 years ago. Contact continued secretly until last summer.

We made major strides 2ward recovery a few weeks after she quit that job.

She saw RM while on another job that she quit after 2 weeks. He wasn't 2 glad 2 see her. He's DVing or DV'd now, his W started a revenge A about a year ago. We talked a LOT on the phone while she was there. Best R convos we've ever had.

She contacted him via email maybe a couple or three times after that, until I told her it hurt 2 much that she did.

I like beer, and when I would get down about the contact, I'd drink 5 or more in a weekend day. When she emailed him 2 tell him happy B-day early last month and I told her how much that hurt, she offered a "deal" that she wouldn't contact him again if I would agree not 2 drink that much. She said I could "think about it for a while." I haven't officially accepted her offer, because I'd prefer her 2 go NC for HER own good, not as a bargaining chip.

We're doing pretty well right now, but I can definitely tell that recovery is going 2 take a few more years. I think I can hold out, but I'm not always sure even now.

best,
-ol' 2long

solon iam going though the same thing as you with my wife.