It seems like my life is just getting crazier and crazier by the week.

I briefly noted that X and I had a meeting with a court appointed social worker last week. The meeting determined that there will be a full blown custody battle with court investigators and all.

Well, we had our usual court ordered session on saturday andthey asked us how thingns were going. X and I got into it tit for tat about his not picking DS up and honoring his end of the custody arrangement. He spewed about the unfairness of tehe agreement, etc.

During this exchange, the comment was made that the "group" feels that we have made no progress since Spetember and that they wanted to remind us that they had the power to pull DS out of both of our hands and put him in Foster care until the custody settlement was finalized.

I became extremely angered by this because they are trying to FORCE us to get along. I approached my IC on the matter and he told me that they were playing a wild card. He said that there was no way that they could do this. the only authority that they have is to call DCF. Since there is no abuse being done to DS, his attitude is that it's a somke screen. He doesn't understand why they would want to pull DS from a stable home and throw him into even MORE turmoil by being in a comopletely foreign place.

He also stated that he is making a peresonal recommendation to my lawyer that these saturady sessions are doing more harm than good, He is requesting that they end for the welfare of ALL of us.

I spoke to my lawyer about the scenario and she basically confirmed the things that my IC did. She recommended that we try a different therapist before completely ending our counseling together.

my yfrustration eminates from the fact that this "Group" does not want to deal with the baggage between x and I. Their attitude is that we need to put that aside and forget it. What I'm angry about is that this is a process that takes stages to heal. Sure, I can bury my anger and put it off, but nothing is really being solved. To gete to that level of co-operation, it will take time.

When in the meeting with the court therapist, I explained that X deliberately tries to start arguments in from of DS. I am the type of person that clams up and walksaway from confrontation. Whene I do this, it only causes X to get Angry and to seek me out and challenge me more. He acknowledged this in that meeting. Thhe strange thing is, that after saturday's session, I became very despsondent and angry at the same time. After giiving things room, I started having these little epiphanies about myself in rersponse to this argument stuff. Funny how in the depth of chaos comes theh deepest lessons.

Turns out that as a child, I witnessed many violent fights between my parents. Many nights I awoke to the sounds of screams and of things crashing and banging as they beat each other up. how I used to hide in the darkness for fear that they would kill each other, or worse, come and find me. Well, in hindsight, I realized why I am so afraid of conflict and why the constant challenging by X led me into my shell and eventual depression.

Big stuff in little doses.

<small>[ January 26, 2004, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: God-within-kily ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I realized why I am so afraid of conflict and why the constant challenging by X led me into my shell and eventual depression.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a very profound revelation. Congratulations on this very big step in your healing process.

Now how can you learn this lesson learned to better communicate with X where DS is concerned?

I almost hope that there is a full blown custody battle that goes on. Considering how your x hasn't been around much, and can't even live up to regular visitations... how in the heck would the court allow even joint custody? He's away on business regularly, right? And you can't easily get in touch with him?... or is it that you haven't wanted to get in touch with him? (I think that is more to the point, isn't it? Especially with your need to avoid conflict... and yes, what an "aha moment" you had... I love when I have those; they take away SO much of the stress).

That was excessively cruel, IMO, on the part of your counsellors to threaten to take away your son. Good heavens!!! They are supposed to help you to HEAL by building trust within the group. Making threats like that just completely drains the love bank for the group, doesn't it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I don't know what else to say kily. Just know that you and your family are in my prayers. (((((((((((((((kily))))))))))))))))

Karen

Kily

Just wanted to let you know I was thinking of you. I always follow your threads, but don't often know quite what to say - I have to tell you that is rare for me too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Anyway, I agree with Karen - the threat of the Councillors seems completely outside the boundaries of reality - is there someone more senior you could talk to about this, because I think he/she were completely outside of their remit to threaten you in this way?

Wishing you well as always from rainy cold London.
Lisa

Geez, Kily, your therapists and my Parenting coordinator should get together and dance or something. I'm not *yet* getting that kind of threat, but boy, I'm on a similar journey to yours.

My one big question would be why, exactly, the counselors are so stressed by your conflict with your exH. Seems to me that they're trying to assert control in a chaotic situation, and that they haven't realized that making that kind of threat is exactly what starts these spirals in the first place.

Yes, different counselors are most certainly in order.

Faith-
I've been pondering that precise question. For me, I think that communicating this to X as an nexplanation would be pointless. I think that at least now, I might be able to stay and listen to his rant, acknowledge his point, and then express that I need time to digesta, ponder and respond. Then I can let him know that my withdrawal isn't meant as a disrespectful action towards him.

topie-
Hey girl. Yes, a full blown custody battle is scary, especially when you don't know how to pay for it. I wish it could be different, but so far reason hasn't been something that exists between the two of us. Yes for the mosts part X is inacessible. He has this metality that he is the world and everything should revolve around King X. My boundaries have been strategically placed with the help of a wondereful therapist to change that situation. X doesn't like the fact that he has to be responsible for things. You should have seen his face when the counselor asked him how many times HE has contacted the school and inquired into the welfare of his son...he almost choked when she told him that it was extremely presumptuous of him to expect me to be his go between. At least someone recognized the struggle that I have ahead of me.

LIL-
Thanks for your input. Somehow leaving you speechless is a little amusing considering how much craziness you have seen in your life...
Yes, the thereat only made me angry and less willing to participate. This group doesn't want to address issues. It seems that they just want results without the hard work. I will be attending the meeting this saturday to have them define their exact agenda for me and then I'm hapilly going to get up and tell them mthat their services are no longer desired...
Truthfully, I think they were threatening us in hopes that x and I would find an allegence against them in defense of our son. What they didn't count on was that I have lived my life under threats and have over come the helpless fear that is associated with them. I did my research, educated myself, and will take the healthiest course of action.

Hi J-
Happy to walk on the journey with sosmeone as lovely as you...Yes, chaos is nuts. I'm doing my bests to find my center of peace and stay there. I'm fortunate in that I am finding some lessons and messages throughout th trials...I'm just wondereing what the next dip will be...probably X's marriage.

Thanks to all for reading and replying.

You should know right up front that I am going to make some - some of what could easily be called DJ's.

I think you are dealing with pacifists in war time.

When you are at war (and I will explain why I say this) you always get people who say things like:
"If we be nice to them, they will be nice to us"
"There is never any reason for violence"
"Why can't we just all get along"

Well, the reason we can't all "just get along" is that some people absolutely refuse to. There are examples all throughout history - as far as leaders of nations, and nations at war. There are examples in case law also - and divorce court.

The courts exist because some people make being unreasonable a habbit, and there has to be a way for the rest of society to settle things.

X has (seemingly) made it his goal in life to "get" Kily. Sure he was wronged, sure things are not the best, but then there is real life - things are never the best, and we have to deal with wrongs all our lives.

So, your therapy group wants this to end like a fairy tale and since it looks like they can't produce that outcome by talking with you, they try to do it by force. They want YOU to get along, but they can't do it them selves when they don't get their way. Maybe they want to look good on some report somewhere - really it doesn't matter. What does matter is what we do with what we get.

I believe you and X are at war. He continues to ask for more, and like Hitler, and others that took their nations to war, it doesn't matter what you give them, they continue to TAKE and TAKE no matter how much they get. In fact, they have no intention of ever being nice, unless someone persuades them to by force of arms. As long as they can get away with taking what they want, they continue to take it. Basically because you made a mistake and left him you get to be his slave for life - you take care of DS when he can't, or doesn't want to, and you remain at his beck and call (his whim) any time he does want to see DS. That's the way it works now, and if you don't want to go along with it, you are a monster for taking his son away from him, and you will pay dearly for it.

That's why I say you are at war. You cannot reason with someone that is unreasonable, so you do whatever it takes to FORCE reason. The court system usually works for that. If he believed in give and take, and were willing to compromise then you could work something out, but he will only TAKE, so all the talking about it that the group or anyone does won't make any difference.

Problem is that your ability to win in court sometimes depends on how much money you have, and right now that is a problem.

X knows that is a problem for you, but not for him, and so he continues to disrupt your life to get his way. I think if you had unlimited funds, and went for a restraining order against him ever talking to DS again because of the emotional abuse he has subjected you to, he would sign and keep a less strict agreement in a heartbeat. Right now he has no reason to be nice, so he will not be nice. He believes he can get what he wants by being a bully, so he continues to be one.

The big question is what can you do?

When God wants to teach people, he sends someone to talk to them, and if they won't listen, he does something to get their attention. Some times it takes quite a big event to get someone to listen. I think it will take a very big event to get X to listen. Like a court hearing going against him. In fact, I don't know if he will listen then, or if he will continue to try to get around any thing that does not go in his favor by using covert action and trying to make your life a hell no matter what the Judge says. I worry about that, because he doesn't seem to have any kindness in him with anything relating to you. If it comes to that, you would have to gather evidence and go after that restraining order so that he would either leave you alone, or go to jail. Sometimes it takes that kind of action, and sometimes they go to jail because they just won't leave it alone.

There is what ought to happen, and there is what does happen. We don't always get what is right.
I don't know if you can afford to do whatever it takes. I wish you had recorded the phone conversations and had copies of all the abusive e-mails and could perhaps get some help from a women's advocate center or something of that type for small or no cost. I don't know what is available, but I suspect you could find something if you looked.

The bottom line is that being nice won't work, so you have to do something else, or accept that your life will always be like this. I vote for doing something else. I would not tell the therapy group what you want, I would just try and get your lawyer to have the arrangement changed so you don't have to deal with them. I feel it would be a waste of time to try and explain it to them - it is obvious they don't get it.

If you can make a court battle work, then go all out for that. If you can't, then ask your lawyer what other options you have.

Also, I would encourage you to stay away from physical relationships until you are married. I think that's a good way to judge if you are ready for it. If you are married to someone, then it's time, if not, then there is not enough commitment. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

There is much I don't know about where YOU are now. I continue to pray for you. Remember that our spiritual lives, and our temporal lives don't have to be separate. The object is to bring them together so they are one and the same. Every thing we do, every decision we make, every action we take, has spiritual consequences - for good, or bad. Make sure that God is comfortable with what you do. Some things that we are very concerned about are not all that important to God - and some things that he is very concerned about seem to escape our notice for long periods of time. See if you can become more in tune with him, and what he wants for you because that's where our happiness lies. He knows what we need most, and he will give us the help we need to get where we need to be.

Don't fear what you lack. It may be money, it may be something else, but don't fear. You will get the help you need when you need it if you do all that you can. That's what faith is - believing that he will make it turn out for your good no matter where this goes. Remember that good doesn't always win every battle, but that the final outcome will be what is best for you if you don't give up.

God be with you.

SS

SS:

You pretty much covered it! I was trying 2 think of ways 2 suggest a "change" here, but now I don't need 2! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-ol' 2long

Sounds like the counselors are threatening a King Solomon-like judgement, where the 2 mothers claim motherhood, if the child were cut in half, the true mother would let the other have the child.

The counselors sound like they have an agenda for what progress is, you can ask them what it is. And is it fair for the counselors to inflict their own agenda upon you? What is your agenda? And what is H's?

Hey Still Seeking, will you pray for me next time you're talking to God? I'd appreciate it.

SS-

wow! I must say that you have absolutely outdone yourself my friend.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, the reason we can't all "just get along" is that some people absolutely refuse to. There are examples all throughout history - as far as leaders of nations, and nations at war. There are examples in case law also - and divorce court.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I have to agree with you on this. I also need to explore the fact that I have now adopted this attitude in order to put distance between X and I. You are aware of the story...I won't rehash. I know though that I could get along, but then I'd be right back where I started which isn't a healthy place for any of us.
So at this time, I acknowledge that I refuse to get along with him. I accept the responsibility fot that. The question is: Is my approach only perepetuating this? Is there another way to handle this whole thing?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, your therapy group wants this to end like a fairy tale and since it looks like they can't produce that outcome by talking with you, they try to do it by force. They want YOU to get along, but they can't do it them selves when they don't get their way. Maybe they want to look good on some report somewhere - really it doesn't matter. What does matter is what we do with what we get. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gosh, these words rang so true during yesterday's session. I went in and basically laid it on the line. I expressed to them that my lawyer and IC are in agreement that this threat of their's is way out of line. I expressed that both feel that either the focus of the therapy change, or X and I should stop attending because it's doing more harm than good.

What they conveyed was that they don't care about anything my IC feels or thinks. They don't care about whatever personal "issues" it is sthat we are working on. They do NOT wish to consult with my IC. They feel that ALL OF IT should be left outside of the room and that all that is dealt with is custody issues re: Ds. They took it further and gave the both of us a draft of the letter that they plan on sending to the court. I will summarize it all by saying this:

They feel that since our personal stuff keeps coming up consistently in each session, when we are reminded that we are here to deal only with custody issues cocncerning DS, that they recommend DS to be removed from both parents and placed in a foster home until we can work out an agreement in his best interest.

So, basically, you'rer right...they are trying to strong arm us into meeting their agenda. At the same time, they are unwilling to provide us with any counseling. They have conveyed that this is why we are each supposed to be going to IC. It is THERE that they expect us to work on our anger and relationship issues. Reminder: X has YET to go to IC.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You cannot reason with someone that is unreasonable, so you do whatever it takes to FORCE reason. The court system usually works for that. If he believed in give and take, and were willing to compromise then you could work something out, but he will only TAKE, so all the talking about it that the group or anyone does won't make any difference. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is the situation exactly. I feel as if I'm damned if I do, and damned if I don't. When I give, he keeps taking. How can I stop that madness and still lmake this group happy? Basically, it translates into me giving up everything, sateliting my life around King X's needs, while in effect teaching DS that women are supposed to be subservient, ini the process...It's just so damned screwed up!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Problem is that your ability to win in court sometimes depends on how much money you have, and right now that is a problem. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe not such a problem...I'll know on nMonday or Tuesday...
I talked with my lawyer and explainied the situatioin. I asked for her to sit down and figure out what her fee would be to settle everything (house included). We agreed that I would cash in my 401K and give her a 1 time payment for all services required. She sent a request for settlement on the house to X and we are awaaiting hihs response. This will allow her to rate her fee based on a settlement vs. a long drawn out knock down drag out fight. I also requested child suppport so hopoefully in mid february, she will make that motion during the intake hearing.

So...maybe God is looking out for me because I now have a method of clearing this all up with the financial stuff addressed. Now all I have to do is stay focused on what my future will look like.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I wish you had recorded the phone conversations and had copies of all the abusive e-mails and could perhaps get some help from a women's advocate center or something of that type for small or no cost. I don't know what is available, but I suspect you could find something if you looked.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, I didn't record the phone calls...too darned foolish at the time to think of it. I DID save the threatening emails though! I figured that at some point, someone out there just might give a damned.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Also, I would encourage you to stay away from physical relationships until you are married. I think that's a good way to judge if you are ready for it. If you are married to someone, then it's time, if not, then there is not enough commitment.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agreed 1000%. I deserve nothing less...


more later, i have to run

So, basically, you'rer right...they are trying to strong arm us into meeting their agenda

Kily,

Would it be disrespectful of me to say that I think that they are trying to get you both to act like Adults and to stop the insane fussing and bickering? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I have read many of your posts...and while I don't purport to know the entire thing... I have noticed in your posts that there is almost always a confrontation when the two of you cross paths. I can imagine that your DS is not being shielded from it...but more than likely witnessing it.

I can also imagine that these people are concerned with the very same things. If you and he are going round and round in front of them, they can surmise that you are doing it in front of your child. There seems to be a lot of angst and hate coming from BOTH of you to each other.

SO, what are they to do? They cannot save the two of you...so they will attempt to save your DS from the onslaught. I would think that it is well within their right as social workers to recommend that a child be removed from that type of situation...and then you and he could each "visit" with your child without fear of having to look at or interact with the other.

Extreme...huh? But think about it for a minute....what you and he are doing with the bickering and fussing is not good for him...and they have the interests of your DS first and foremost in their mind. I think it was a way of telling you... "if you don't care what all this is doing to your child..fine...WE do care and we will take whatever measures are necessary to remove it from him or him from it".

While some people will say that you do NOT have To get along...I will respectfully disagree. Kily, you DO have to get along..if for no other reason than for the child you BOTH created.

Now, I don't propose that I know how you do this. I just know that it has to be done. I would think that one of you is going to have to bite the bullet and do what is right...for your DS.

Again, this is JMHO..and I do not intend to come across as disrespectful or judgmental. I am just an impartial party that is on the outside...looking in.

committed

What they conveyed was that they don't care about anything my IC feels or thinks. They don't care about whatever personal "issues" it is sthat we are working on. They do NOT wish to consult with my IC. They feel that ALL OF IT should be left outside of the room and that all that is dealt with is custody issues re: Ds. They took it further and gave the both of us a draft of the letter that they plan on sending to the court. I will summarize it all by saying this:

They feel that since our personal stuff keeps coming up consistently in each session, when we are reminded that we are here to deal only with custody issues cocncerning DS, that they recommend DS to be removed from both parents and placed in a foster home until we can work out an agreement in his best interest.

Oh Yeah, WE'RE only concerned about your sore toe, and the heart attack is your problem. If you don't get up out of that hospital bed right now and exercise that toe, we are going to throw the book at you. If you have tubes and an IV, you just have to rip them out and walk anyway. We'll show you who's boss.

We always wish that people are concerned about us as a whole, and consider ALL the information when them make decisions. Too bad they won't. I hope the judge will, long time judges have more interface with the real world.

Commnitted,
What do you do when one is an adult, and the other is not? How long should one be willing to be abused by the other and not do something about it? Forever?

SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Commnitted,
What do you do when one is an adult, and the other is not? How long should one be willing to be abused by the other and not do something about it? Forever?

SS </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SS,

She cannot change him or how he acts....what she can change is how SHE reacts to him. She needs to refuse to be baited....yeah...it's hard. It will probably be the hardest thing she has ever done in her life.

He is doing her that way because he CAN. We teach people how to treat us, she needs to re-educate him by refusing to react the way he has come to expect.

If he doesn't show up for his court appointed time...have a Plan B ready...and then write down on the calendar what happened. Don't confront him about it...write it down and submit it to the social workers.

If he calls...emails...confronts about something that ticks him off...hangup or delete or walk away. Close the door in his face...a ranting man on the porch will draw attention from the neighbors and more than likely a call to the authorities will be made by them.

When he starts going at in the counseling session...small smile..tilt the head...look at social workers...sigh.... as in "see what he's like...but what can I do".

She needs to paint herself as the ONLY adult that this child has so that he cannot hope to attain custody.

I really think there are ways of dealing with him...you just have to zero in on the correct method.

I am NOT saying that I know how ...just that it HAS to be done.

To refuse to participate in antics such as his wouldn't be considered avoiding conflict. IMHO it would be considered the smart and adult thing to do.

Again, I meant no disrespect by what I said... I took a different look at it. BTDT.
committed

CALI-

Thanks for your input. I sincerely do recognize what your saying. I've explored that very line of thinking myself. The fact is, someone stated that it is possibly the king Solomon approach. I would sign custody over to X before I would allow DS to be put in an even MORE tumultuous scenario.

I really related to your last post especially because this is exactly the approach that I have adopted. When I get those emails, I read them, I wrote the response that my emotions want, and then I delete them...I never respond when they come. Effectively, I have completely removed myself from any place where there could be conflict when DS is present. It is at the point where when X calls - during his alotted time, I don't even answer the telephone. DS is old enough to do this.

I am in a Plan-b. I do not have contact with X unless it is in this meeting. I do not speak to him when we attend functions with DS. I deliberately go out of my way to avoid a situation where we would have conflict. This action on my part has only seemed to escalate the anger and bad behavior on his part. If I am at a point where I have to have contact, I am as cordial as I can be.

When I approach the social worker's with the facts ie. printed out emails, or documented visitation that didn't happen, they don't want to hear it, acknowledge it, nothing. So, basically, even though I am trying to convey that DS's bests interests are spending time with dad that is predictable and consistent, they see it as a competition between two people to prove who the better parent is.

It's a very hard thing and I REALLY am trying to keep my emotions out of it and do what's best for DS. I can't control the other camp. I can't reason with the other camp. So what is it that I should do?

I realize that I am not a saint, but I am seeking therapy, I am asking questions, I am trying very hard to break cycles and place healthy boundaries in. THere are some things I'm doing right. God knows how much I've done wrong.

Anyway, I basically told the therapists in the group to submit the letter to the court. I can't change their views as I am only 1/2 of the problem. I can only continue to try and be the best mother that I camn be for my son. If the court deems that this isn't the best interest for my son, then I will have to accept that.

You are completely right in that I can only change how I react. I'm working on it.

Thanks for giving me so much thought and energy...it wasn't wasted...

more later

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by StillHereMakingIt:
<strong> Sounds like the counselors are threatening a King Solomon-like judgement, where the 2 mothers claim motherhood, if the child were cut in half, the true mother would let the other have the child.

The counselors sound like they have an agenda for what progress is, you can ask them what it is. And is it fair for the counselors to inflict their own agenda upon you? What is your agenda? And what is H's? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Kily I absolutely concurr with StillHereMakingIt's point and I would advice you make one last effort and contact your X and ask him how does brinkmanship (the policy of pushing a dangerous situation to the brink of disaster) benefit your DS, your X and you if the counselors are succesful in stripping away custody from BOTH of you? If he still won't budge from his position then leave and on the way home ask yourself if you and your DS are not better off by giving your X custody than allowing this to go on. Remember that in a mutually assured destruction scenario neither side wins.

kily,

I still don't understand why you can't have JOINT custody, and a specific visitation schedule be made up through a mediator. Why isn't that an option? (if you've explained this before, I haven't "gotten it" yet... so please run it by me again).

Joint custody (as I'm sure you're already more than aware), does not mean equal living time. A parent can have full custody, but only have the child 1/2 of the time. I suppose that in a legal sense, a parent can have full custody, while the other parent has the child most of the time too. You should check into that with your lawyer.

Although my gut, my mother's gut... the one who made sure she had full custody of her boys... is screaming, "Don't you DARE award your ex full custody!!". Why? I don't trust him. I'm afraid he would have the balls to up and take your son and move far away.. just to spite you. From what you've already posted to us about him and his actions, he obviously isn't keeping your son's best interests in mind, but has his own agenda.

As far as this counselling group goes... have they come right out and told you what they want from the two of you? Other than to "get along". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Have they offerred any tools to use? (like EN questionnaires on MB for example). Or do they just sit there and watch you two, all the while expecting that you will both be able to "get along" by pulling something out of the air?

I just don't get a lot of what's going on in your situation right now. I can only imagine how YOU must feel being right in it. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Karen

Topie-

We currently have a joint arrangement where he has the capabiltiy of seeing DS for more hours than I do. The only thimng is that I am the custodial parent. Currently it is set up so that DS is with hme on Tuesday and Thursday - both nights being Karate nights which eats into any quality time we have, X gets him on Wednesdays. Then we alternate weekends startinf Friday night's at 6:00 and ending Monday a.m. at 7:30. X has the option of a third weekend each month. He doesn't pay child support, and he wants the freedom to have DS any weeknight that he feels accomodates HIS schedule.

I feel that what we have is fair. x has between 6:00 and 7:00 when he can call ds if he wants to. This was put in place because X was calling whenever the hell he wanted and got angry at me when I didn't answer my cell. Now, he calls DS directly and I don't have to be held responsible for un-communicated expectations on X's part.

His position is that since I have other chilidren, I should give him DS because he has none. He feels that DS should LIVE in his town and that I am wrong to pick up, move to a new town and start a new life because I left him and did all of the things that I did.

To him, it doesn't matter that Ds would be constantly subjected to having to go to a daycare program at 7:00 am meach day and picked up at 6:00 pm. It doesn't matter that when X travels that someone else needs to babysit and take care of DS because he isn't there. It doesn't matter that DS has a mom that puts him before everything and doesn't care to go out drinking or partying.

Coffeeman-
I've already spoken to my OS about this scenario. I will address X after my iC session tonight. I agree that this insanity has to stop, and I have resolved myself to giving DS up if it means that he is spared from all of this anguish and turmoil. I believe with my whole heart that DS has a more stable environment with me. At this point though, I love him too much to put him through this.

What hurts the most is that X agreed that if I live in his town, he wouldn't fight me for custody. Does anyone see the problem with this?

As far as this group having an agenda, no...there are no rules or guidelines in place. Yes, we pretty much go in there and they basically play referee to the issue of the week. Since this is the ONLY place where we discuss anything, it's does get emotional.

Lately, I've been going in detached and basically just acknowledging whatever questions I have. I'm resolved to this situation not changing and I'm doing my best to seek a different source of counseling.

I've reached a place where I'm just glad that something has to happen. A letter like that to a lawyer is definately a red flag. We certainly can't stay in this STUCK mode any longer.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"What hurts the most is that X agreed that if I live in his town, he wouldn't fight me for custody. Does anyone see the problem with this?"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Kily even though your X is not in an affair right now he is in a fog of his own and just like a foggy ws, it is best not to beleive a word he says. Don't argue or try to reason with him because not only will you won't change his view but you'll only end up reinforcing it. You'd be amazed how much not letting him push your buttons and simply remaining silent will accomplish for you. It's hard because our instinct is to defend ourselves from unfair attacks and fight back but remember that you are in Plan B and fighting is contrary to its purpose.

As far as the custody issues is concerned please keep in mind that giving up custody can be considered a tactical retreat to get rid of the wolves(counselors) which in my opinion are a greater danger to your DS than your X. Besides, if after the issues has been settled and your X begins to violate the courts visitation schedules, you can once again go to court with proof positive that he is violating the courts orders and your chances for gaining custody of your DS will be greatly improved.

<small>[ January 26, 2004, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

I think what changed me from encouraging her to get along with X was the wedding plans she had - that he sabatoged. She was planning to attend a friends wedding and had told him in advance. It was his turn to have DS so she felt safe in making plans to attend the wedding. He esentially told her that he wouldn't take DS even though it was his time to have him (court ordered),he said he had a party to go to(last minute plan change), and that she could just deal with it and he diddn't care what she had planned.

I think after months and months of this it's time to play hardball with him. She can't always change her plans at the last minute just because he tells her to.

I was under the impression that Kily has already quit responding with anger and that she just refused to answer him. Also that this incited him to even worse behivor and that it caused even more verbal abuse and plan changing on his end to get her to respond. If this is not the case (if Kily is still actively fighting with him) then she needs to respond differently, but If she is passive and he chases her down to purposely hurt her, I think she should treat it as war and fight the fight.

TMCM makes a good point that backing off and letting X get DS may work for now, but in my experiance the court seldom makes the change later without something big ( X getting charged with Murder or something) and that it is less expensive to get it over with now, than to do it twice. I suppose that if she just told X he could have custody and didn't contest anything it would reduce the court time this time around, but I think the next time around (in court) it would go against her for giving up this time. That is something her lawyer could be a much better resource for than we could be.

I agree with everyone that we should always exaust the nice ways of working things out first, but it seemed to me after reading her posts for so long that she had done that.

I think she should seek a judgement that says in effect: You be nice and quit with the verbal abuse and take your turns (on time) when they come around, or you will give up your rights for visitation all together. Maybe she can tell him straight out that that is what she is after and see if it has any effect on him, but I wonder if he will just change his behivour enough short term to get what he wants and then go back to the abuse cycle. Again, I believe Kily should consult with her legal counsel about it and get it over with so her life can go on in a more normal fashion.

I really don't think X will respond to anything less than that.

SS