I'm almost two months past d-day. WH is only admitting to a few kisses with OW, which he says was "to get my attention" to let me know there was a problem with our sex life. He says nothing was supposed to happen, that OW (who was my friend and former daycare provider) was supposed to run to me with the info, but she didn't. WH says he "can't remember" any of the details that I need to know.

Also, it took about a month to get NC, if indeed I have it...not sure about that.

We're in MC, but he's still not being truthful. He went so far as to deny driving by her house early one morning when I had followed him and seen him with my own eyes -- said I was letting my insecurities get the best of me, and that I hadn't been eating or sleeping right...

At times I almost buy into the fantasy and start thinking I'm crazy, but then I remember that I'm not, that things don't add up...I keep telling him I can't fix this by myself, and can't rebuild without total honesty.

Am I dreaming? Will he ever "come clean"?

Any advice appreciated.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by want the truth:
Will he ever "come clean"?

Any advice appreciated. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Use your imagination....

What do you imagine your H's worst case senario is ... if he should confess to a greater degree of physical contact?

What reaction from you might he fear?

Start there ..... then tell us.

I think this might help you come up with a plan to make it safe for him to be 100% honest.

Pep

Thanks for your response. I'm doing all I know to do to make him feel safe...and my suspicion is that it is definitely a PA, but don't know how long it's been going on. I've told him numerous times that I don't care if they've been having PA for 2-3 years -- if he'll just tell me, I'm willing to work on rebuilding this marriage. FYI, we have 2 D -- 5 and 2.5 years old.

Other question, while I'm at it -- I don't feel "safe" resuming SF yet, but know that's his most important EN. I'm trying to Plan A, but feel like my reluctance may be a LB. How can I fix this, or help him fix this?

Just realized I didn't really answer your question as to what reaction from me he may fear...I assume it's that I will leave him -- he has said from day one that he loves me, has always loved me, and doesn't want to lose me.

Because of his lying, I'm starting to feel less committed to working this out, and he knows this. I guess I'm hoping that by telling him this, he feels he has nothing left to lose by telling me -- if he doesn't 'fess up, I will leave him, but if he does, we can try to repair our marriage.

Originally posted by want the truth:
what reaction from me he may fear...I assume it's that I will leave him --

Have you ever had the impression about certain people

that they just don't trust "the truth" to be in their best interest ....

therefore, they try and manipulate the facts to achieve an outcome they desire?

I think of this as a form of anxiety.

Do you think your H is an anxious sort of individual? Anxious people can behave in different ways. Lying can be a form of anxiety.

Know when you ask a little kid whose face is all smeared with chocolate "Did you eat that chocolate that was on my desk?"

And he anxiously answers ...."Noooooooooo"

How much do you think your H trusts that the truth will save your marriage?

Pep

Originally posted by want the truth:

Other question, while I'm at it -- I don't feel "safe" resuming SF yet, but know that's his most important EN. I'm trying to Plan A, but feel like my reluctance may be a LB. How can I fix this, or help him fix this?

I am not ignoring this .... and I think you might tie this in with your need to feel safe ... with truth not lies in order to respond sexually. More on this later.

Pep

"Do you think your H is an anxious sort of individual? Anxious people can behave in different ways. Lying can be a form of anxiety."

Pep, I've never thought of him that way. He's always telling me I worry too much, and doesn't seem to get ruffled about things...but I have to believe that he IS worried about losing me, which is why it doesn't make sense that he won't tell me everything. It's almost like he thinks if he sticks to his story long enough, I'll have to believe it.

"How much do you think your H trusts that the truth will save your marriage?"

Apparently not enough.


"I think you might tie this in with your need to feel safe ... with truth not lies in order to respond sexually. More on this later."

Any advice here would be MOST appreciated...I'm wanting to say there will be no SF until I have honesty, but that's definitely a LB, so I don't know what to do.

Thanks for any advice!!

wantthetruth - So do I. Don't have any advice for you though. Mine lies too, all of the time. Before A he was a very honest person, and that was one of the things I admired most about him. Now he is not. The constant lies bother me more than the betrayal.

Lets hash out a different perspective and approach to this issue...and see where we get..

WS have to lie...it is the nature of the beast...
once they start on the path of infidelity it becomes an action...
lie to the spouse
lie to the OP...
lie to others...

it snowballs quickly...lie on top of lie...
who was the fogged induced WS that told their spouse they "felt physically ill because it was the BS spouses fault they had to keep lying to them because their spouse remembers things...!!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

translated into babble babble babble....

Espior wrote a wonderful post addressing this issue from a new approach...
that I thought was brilliant, made sense, and also conveyed care and concern for the WS who is well aware of the fact they lie...

she approached it this way...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I found that during the affair period, I did end up having alot of discussion with my H that were helpful in the long run. Firstly, I did "educate" him. I would read books and share information with him- how affairs develop, the affair "bubble", statistics on affairs, and the effects of divorce on children. I just did this calmly in an informative manner. I also did discuss some stuff about the OP with him, always being careful not to insult her. But stuff would come out during these discussions that was food for thought and that would pierce that bubble. Often I would just raise issues of practicality or logistics- which was often stuff we needed to figure out anyway.

One thing I told my WH was that he had become a liar and a cheater and I knew that was not "him"- I couldn't let him be that kind of person. You can use this technique on your WS too. For example, if he wants to discuss houses with you, you say, "I can't let you go behind OW's back with me, it isn't fair to her to let her believe she has a future with you when you are planning otherwise. I can't be party to you being dishonest. Because I respect you and I know that is not the kind of man you want to be" You take it away from you being the injured party. NOT "you hurt me so much, I have to be away from you" RATHER "I have to protect you and your dignity by distancing myself from this lying behavior". I don't know if this makes sense. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To me this acknowledges and validates the slippy (slippy is what we say round here)...
slope and building of lie upon lie...even when the WS doesn't really want to lie...

they are in it so deep they may not know how to stop...

they expect backlash anger and pain....from the people they lie too...
And human nature is to move far away from those things....
that's why not remembering is a common divergence tactic...

Is it possible to approach the issue of lying as a team and not as a liar and the one being lied too?

what would happen if you approached it that way?

ark

Hi my story was a little similar. OW and her family were our next door neighbors and close friends. On first dday my H admitted that friendship had crossed the line, that he and OW ran errands together and had kissed and held hands said had been going on around 4 weeks. I told him the truth and NC were most important things for me. Him not telling me whole truth started to erode my sanity. Over the next couple of months he slowly confessed to all of the truth...it was a PA (full intercourse only once). He also took two polygraphs, first he failed (funny thing was he told me about PA before he took test...but had withheld small details)...months later he took a second test and passed with flying colors.

Good news is I know he hasn't withheld one small scrap of information from me about his life, not just OW. We have a clean slate.

If you'd like to know more about our story (quest for the truth). You can search under the recovery board...I am forevertogether and my H is tellthetruth. Funny your posting name caught my H's eye right away and he asked me to read your post.

He reads often but has rarely posted since the early days. Most of our early story would be from 12/02-2/03.

Only you can determine how important the truth and whole story is to you. To me it was everything...I would never feel safe if he kept secrets for me...I am a all or nothing kind of girl!

I have to say that by learning how to open and honest with each other and following rest of MB principles we have become closer then I thought two human beings could be!

Most WS tell lies because they are terrified of the repercussions of telling the truth. They have horrible secrets; they don't want to admit to themselves that they could have done what they did, and they fear telling you because once you know the "real" (worst) them, they think there's no way you could still love them. They really don't realize, for a long time, that the lies are worse than anything else.

Whenever your H does tell you the truth about something that you know is hard for him to admit, be sure to NOT get angry with him. Don't give him the silent treatment. Don't cry and sob and get hysterical. Don't accuse, or blame, or belittle him. Put yourself in his shoes and tell him you know it must have been incredibly hard for him to tell you the truth, and thank him sincerely for his efforts. Let him know that his honesty is a treasured gift.

Now about how to get him to tell that first truth, like about driving by OW house? Geez, I don't know! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Thank you all for your replies...WH is really depressed, but still insists there's "nothing else to tell"...he asked if I was thinking about Dv, and I said yes.

The lack of SF is getting more difficult for him, and it feels like something will have to give soon. Don't know if I'm driving him back to her or what (if he's even left her!), but don't know what to do.

It feels like I'm doing all the work to get over this, while he's just giving me lip service. We're at an impasse -- he wants SF, and I want honesty. He says I'm getting it, but I know I'm not. I don't even see remorse, so I'm thinking it's still fog.

"Is it possible to approach the issue of lying as a team and not as a liar and the one being lied too?"

Ark, can't quite wrap my brain around this one...can you explain a bit? Don't know how to do this if he won't admit to lying...

Forevertogether, thanks for your post. I read your story, and WH has read some of it too...I was hoping it would help encourage him to be honest, but not yet! How did you get a polygraph for your H?

Turtlehead, I have been very calm for the most part since d-day...perhaps too much so. I am terrified that my daughters will be negatively affected -- I had to live through my parents' screaming fights and spousal abuse when I was small, and don't want anything like that happening to my kids, so I'm keeping everything as quiet as possible. Plus both WH and I are conflict avoiders...

Something else of note: One of my closest friends is a LCSW, and she suggested that perhaps WH is bipolar, instead of just depressed. Said to get him evaluated, and that now I have the perfect excuse -- to save our marriage. He's on Zoloft, but is pretty cavalier about taking meds -- goes on and off at will, doesn't worry about dosing properly, etc. He crashed last night because he ran out 2-3 days ago and hadn't refilled.

Sorry so long, and any thoughts are much appreciated!

------------
BS - 39
WH - 46
Married 10 years, together for 12
d-day Dec. 1, 2003

wantthe

I am concerned about your "recovery" ...
lets hash out some things...

My first question is if you don't think your husband is being upfront with you...have you asked/confronted the OP since she used to be a friend <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> of yours...

AND
if you did ask her (now) ...and you are wondering if he and she are still in contact...would her volunteer that he had "heard" that you have done that...

I'm not suggesting that right now..I'm just trying to see what routes have been taken...

Have you read and
do you understand plan A
and are you in a strong plan A???

Plus both WH and I are conflict avoiders...
Well that's interesting...but it's time for YOU to quit being a conflict avoider....
time for you to face the big elephant in the living room...
don't concern yourself right now with his behaviors focus on yours...

so quit being a conflict avoider...in fact drop that label and look and approach this as

what you had been doing in the past
and what he had been doing in the past...
wasn't working...so time to change...

had to live through my parents' screaming fights and spousal abuse when I was small, and don't want anything like that happening to my kids, so I'm keeping everything as quiet as possible. Plus both WH and I are conflict avoiders...


what is this about...
Is there a history of you or he escalating too screaming and abuse....
or is this a fear of yours unfounded...
do you scream...if so..learn to communicate with out doing so..
does he scream...learn to withdraw from that behavior...
and figure out how to problem solve together...

also know that children should be able to see parents disagree and even argue...and have access as well to the resolution and the ability for people to disagree and still love one another,
still make up...etc

good disagreeing and problem solving skills is a great skill to teach our children....

if you are reacting the total opposite based on what you grew up with...you have to search and find a much more even ground the middle....

WH is only admitting to a few kisses with OW, which he says was "to get my attention" to let me know there was a problem with our sex

-- he wants SF, and I want honesty.

what's the bigger picture...
how will this ever resolve...

what was the issue with your sex life prior to his affair...
or much better worded...what does he say was exactly the issue with your sex life..prior to affair...
and what do you understand as being wrong with your sex life..
your opinion...
can you validate any of his concerns?

Also are you in plan A...and meeting needs...

is there any type of physical connection...not necessarrily sexual...but physical contact..
touching, hugging kissing, hand holding etc...
or is all that non-existant...

my post about approaching the lying together as a team....

I see it like this...you two are locked in the same old power struggle...
you demand the truth...
he demands he has told you the truth...
he denies
you push...

change your approach..

dear husband....I know that you went outside our marriage to get your needs met...
there for no matter what ...it involves deception...
I think that you must have felt pretty bad inside to do that...since you claim that you love and you did it to get my attention...

well the good news is you have my attention...
the bad news is is that I feel further from you...
the loving trusting "you" that I have ever felt in my life...
and we need to work together to get you feeling better about you...
and we need to work together to get us feeling better about us...blah blah blah etc...

I know that to do what you did involved you lying to me...
and I know that you are a way way better and honorable man...

and that I want to be with that honorable man again...
I also know that I don't want to go back..
or just forget...
I want to build a new marriage ...
worthy of both of us..blah blah blah..etc..

tell him that you imagine the worst not anything he might have done...but the worst being you never being able to trust him again...
and the worst him feeling bad as he does now...

I'm saying quit the power struggle..even let go a little of your need to know...

but would like more feedback on the questions...
before really making a set plan..to give you strength and direction...

I hope you don't find this post pushy...
just trying to get a better feel on the pulse of it...

ark

I wanted him to take a polygraph shortly after dday. It took about a month and a half or so to get him to do it. He was scared...

I researched polygraphs on the internet. The I called private detective agencies until I found an examiner I liked, had the right experience and right track record (he was ex police examiner for 20 years).

One thing we learned..in the hands of a qualified examiner who asks the right questions (only can ask 3-4 questions, have to all be on same subject and have to be very clearly asked), then the tests are 99% accurate...no one beats them with the rare exception of the highly trained military special training.

Another thing to note is that you can fail all questions if you are lying about even one of them. Before his first test my H told me almost the complete truth of all 4 questions...he still failed the test miserably...why...because he had left out a couple minor details and his concious was still guilty even though he thought he would pass because he was technically (thought questions were worded just right for him to pass) telling the truth.

After the test he came clean about the details that caused him to lie...on advice of examiner we left him and went straight to OW and I asked her the exact questions on the test and she gave exact same answers (they had no opportunity to confer ahead of time).

The questions were something like...did you only have intercourse with OW 1 time, did you ever fantasize about OW while having SF with your wife, did OW perform OS on you only once and no orgasm occured, did you ever perform OS on OW? Was a year ago so these might not be exact questions.

He told the truth on those questions, however, he failed the test for following reasons...he had fantasized about OW once or twice while not having sex with me, he was still lying to me about A timeline, he had still mislead me on a couple other things like...places they'd been, that kind of thing. Examiner explained that his concious was so guilty about lying to me still in general that he failed.

He took another test months later and passed with flying colors.

Bottom line: If you H agrees to take the test, he should come clean with you about all details not just ones that you agree to ask about during exam.

Good Luck!!

Ark, thanks for your input. Here are some answers to your questions:

"if you don't think your husband is being upfront with you...have you asked/confronted the OP since she used to be a friend of yours..."

She and I had contact for the first couple of weeks after d-day, and she continually backed up WH's story. I know they had repeated contact for the first month or so, and she even called me about a month after d-day, while I was away for the holidays, claiming to have taken a bottle of pills...said she wouldn't call for help until I promised her I'd come home and work it out with WH...(!?!?) She has since emailed me to say that she was on some new meds for anxiety and depression, which got out of control, and that she "doesn't remember" much of the last two months...how convenient!

WH says now the repeated contact was so they could discuss their marital problems together and come up with solutions. He says he hasn't lied to me since Christmas Eve, and is having NC. He claimed in MC that he didn't realize at first that NC meant NC at all...but that HE wasn't supposed to contact HER. If she initiated, he thought it was okay to talk to her?!?!

My gut tells me they've started up again as of last week -- I think he saw her Wed. night, because he came home in a really good mood, and then again on Friday, because he came home really late, had turned off his cell phone and didn't answer my calls, and claims to have stopped after work and had a beer by himself (something he's NEVER done), and then stopped at a store near home to pick up more beer before he came home.

He even said he saw me while he was on his way to get beer, and that he "assumed I was driving around looking for him and that I drove by the OW's house"...a strange comment, I thought.

"do you understand plan A
and are you in a strong plan A???"

I've read and understand it, but am not sure how strong my plan A is, because I feel unable to meet his chief EN, which is SF...there is affection between us, lots of kissing, touching etc., but I don't know how much good that's doing. We are talking a good bit, and I'm having him read some posts here and there, but he's not "getting it" -- had him read some of forevertogether's posts, and he said he stopped when he "got to the bull**** about honesty," because he's "giving me that."

"Is there a history of you or he escalating too screaming and abuse....or is this a fear of yours unfounded..."

The only screaming we do seems to be at our children now and then, which concerns me. It's not excessive, but happens more so with him than me...usually when we're stressed out.

Our conversations are usually quiet, but we're at a serious impasse, and I'm trying to find another way to get through to him, since what I've been doing isn't working.

"I'm saying quit the power struggle..even let go a little of your need to know..."

I'd love to know how to do this. I'm feeling some pressure, within myself as well as from WH, to go ahead with SF, but don't feel ready. Perhaps that would get through to him, though...

"I hope you don't find this post pushy...just trying to get a better feel on the pulse of it..."

Not at all. I value and appreciate your input.


Forevertogether, thanks for your help as well. WH keeps saying he has no way to prove his innocence, so perhaps I'll bring up the polygraph and see what he says...but my hunch is he won't be ready for that, because I think the A is still in progress.

Wow! This is a really touchy issue for me as well and your post is a timely one.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We're in MC, but he's still not being truthful. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What does your MC say to all of this? Has s/he pushed your H at all during your sessions? (Normally a MC will be trained to detect lying, although certainly they are not infallible.)

One technique I would suggest is to write back and forth on this issue. As ark says, you are doing the same dance as usual...break the impasse. Tell him how you feel and ask him to respond in writing. See if this exchange gives you something concrete to work on.

For example:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My gut tells me they've started up again as of last week -- I think he saw her Wed. night, because he came home in a really good mood, and then again on Friday, because he came home really late, had turned off his cell phone and didn't answer my calls, and claims to have stopped after work and had a beer by himself (something he's NEVER done), and then stopped at a store near home to pick up more beer before he came home. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yup...I can see how your gut would be "thinking" that way too! Coming home really late, turning off cell phone, doing something he's never done "on his own"...those are all actions guaranteed to give any BS the willies. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Start from there: how do you respectfully, in a non-judgmental way (ie. without accusing him of lying) raise this issue with him? How do you effectively (ie. without judgements) convey to him that this kind of behaviour is going to continually raise your suspicions? So that even if he is telling the truth, you will find it almost impossible to "feel" that in your gut?

By the way: why shouldn't you accuse WS of lying? Because it is a DJ. Because you fact-find first, and then make statements. You don't ask: "Why were you driving past OW's house?" You state: "Seeing you driving past OW's house on Friday night made me feel ______."

To use Pep's example:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Know when you ask a little kid whose face is all smeared with chocolate "Did you eat that chocolate that was on my desk?"

And he anxiously answers ...."Noooooooooo"
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He answers that way out of fear of the consequences. Another approach would be: "Let's talk about why you ate the chocolate that was on my desk."

Otherwise, if you ask a question that you (think you) already know the answer to, it puts the person on the defensive...and they are! You are testing them and they know it. State your knowledge and discuss the consequences matter-of-factly instead.

I like this approach -- I used it on d-day and it worked very well. Stated what I knew and how I felt about it rather than arguing (uselessly) about whether or not anything was going on. This approach lets you get to the heart of the matter quickly.

I suspect you'll hear something like: "but I know you'll freak out if you find out I have spoken to her!"...okay...then you know what you need to do (ie. to clarify why N/C is important to you, how telling the truth is more important than anything else, and how honesty is going to be crucial to the continuation of your M.)

And Pep also alludes to the following: this means YOU have to be honest. You can't punish him for being honest and still expect him to be honest with you. You need to think about how you'll deal with the fact that he still has feelings for her. How to address the thorny issue of SF, etc.

That doesn't necessarily mean you can resolve everything right now but it leaves the door open to further discussion, and more importantly, sets the stage for a new relationship...one based on honesty.

Living with a conflict avoider though, you should be aware that honesty is probably going to dog your recovery even once he's out of the fog completely...there will be inevitable setbacks...so hunker down and start to work on new habits now.

best of luck to you...awed

wantthe...

thanks for the feedback...

awed's post was really good...
I also agree that you should make your point clear in MC that you don't believe him....

Still not clear how the two of you line up on SF issues pre and post affair...
if he claims that his infidelity was to get your attention to meet his need for SF...

how is saying that "it worked for him"...
I mean does he see how using an affair to get SF needs met is

1. insane... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
2. doomed to fail and since it has obviously failed...what's his plan B on this issue...or has he given up...
what does he say..
and have you asked him...

and do you feel or find any reality or any ways you can/should meet the unmet SF needs that he feels made him have an affair...

or is it all just a big bad ugly excuse??

I guess I am trying to find something that you can give him back...to work with him...so that you two aren't so much standing there with such deep lines drawn in the sand...

ARK

Awed and Ark, thanks for your posts. I appreciate all advice, believe me! Now, to your questions:

"What does your MC say to all of this? Has she pushed your H at all during your sessions?"

She has to some degree...he spent two sessions hashing out what happened the weekend I found out, and she called him on his contradictions...but he's still sticking like glue to his story. Says nothing happened except some kissing the weekend after Thanksgiving, and I was supposed to find out so I'd know there was a problem...that it was a 30-second plan to get my attention, and he didn't think it through, but that OW was supposed to come running to me. He did admit that if she hadn't stopped him, he'd have had sex with her, but doesn't think that's contradictory to his original story. He won't admit to anything else, but I believe it's been a PA. He was way too protective of her, took a month to go NC, if in fact he has...and there are too many little details that don't make sense.

"One technique I would suggest is to write back and forth on this issue."

Good idea. I'll try it.

"...this means YOU have to be honest. You can't punish him for being honest and still expect him to be honest with you."

I don't think I've punished him for being honest...I've been gently explaining to him how important it is that I have all the cards on the table, and he just keeps saying he's given me everything there is, that he just doesn't remember details, etc.

"I also agree that you should make your point clear in MC that you don't believe him...."

I think I've done that, but will be happy to reiterate this Saturday in session.

"Still not clear how the two of you line up on SF issues pre and post affair..."

This has been an ongoing problem for years...we'd talk about it every so often and I'd try to change, but would fall back into old habits very quickly, because my needs weren't being addressed, and I wasn't assertive or knowledgable enough to see that they were. It's been the classic he needs more SF and I need more affection stand-off...he says he thought up this stupid plan because he didn't want another temporary fix, and didn't think talking to me again would do any good.

I've admitted since d-day that I took him for granted, I've apologized, and explained that SF became just another chore on my to-do list because I don't feel cherished, appreciated, etc. anymore...and I've told him I'm willing to work on this issue, but since I don't feel ready for SF at this time, I'm sure he can't really believe me.

It's getting to the point that I don't even want to kiss him or have him touch me, because it's still all about his needs...I do see that he's making an attempt to meet my needs lately, but it feels like too little, too late...is this just anger? (Something I'm not comfortable with, and don't know how to handle except by ignoring it)

How do I get past this? He thinks if we just start having sex that everything will work out, but I don't want to do that until he's honest with me. But maybe if I do, then he'll be honest with me...or maybe I need to accept that he'll never tell me.

Any more advice, anyone? Thanks!!

I've admitted since d-day that I took him for granted, I've apologized, and explained that SF became just another chore on my to-do list because I don't feel cherished, appreciated, etc. anymore...and I've told him I'm willing to work on this issue, but since I don't feel ready for SF at this time, I'm sure he can't really believe me.

Well I think that's really the crux of this...

IF you believe that your husband still may be in contact with the OW>....

AND you are here on marriage builders because you have read and understand the principles...

THEN you should be plan Aing him here and now...

Truth is wantthe...it sounds to me like both of you need to address and work on the SF issues...and that you perhaps need to change your own focus in counseling from wanting the truth to figuring out how both of you took marrital SF and each turned in to exacty what it is not and should not be used as...

YOU need to change your perception of SF as a chore...
and i believe that if you are married ...that there will be times in your marriage that you may not feel like ...or really be in the mood...and that you (he or she) still goes ahead and has SF as something that you do for your spouse...

If your husband has been telling you for a long time that he needs this from you..
and you acknowledge that you have played a role in creating that feeling...
and then don't follow through once you agreed to change...
then you are not being fair...

He certainly has a warped sense and use of SF since his whole alibi is that he did it (not all the way <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) with someone else to get your attention...

neither of you are using Sf as the God given gift it is ..with all the benefits it entails..

I do see that he's making an attempt to meet my needs lately, but it feels like too little, too late

unfair of you...If you don't reward him with praise when he does make an attempt...then why in gods name would he or should he continue...

AND if you don't model good praising and heaping of gratitude for his changes...how is he going to learn to do the same for you in the changes you made and or are making...??

Time to step back and look at the bigger picture...

Do you want this marriage to work and be better

Do you want this marriage to be exactly like it is today...a week from now..a month from now...a year from now... or have you had enough....

and the mother of all questions are YOU willing to do work and make changes..REGARDLESS of his actions....

because you can't change him..or anyone else...
so you better start with you...

I would suggest you..

pick a time frame that you can live with..
ex..for the next two months you plan A your tail end off...
you ask him NOTHING about whether he is telling the truth..
you do everything in your power to make your home the only place he wants to go to after work....

you push past your need for honesty and meet his needs for SF to the best of your ability..
and part of that is letting go of the well ingrained thought that SF is a chore..
or that it is only something for him..
or that it a tool
or a weapon
or a control thing...

and begin to view SF as God's given gift to humans to express and act on our love and cherishing for one another...

read on plan a..
find posts on how to...
decide if you want this marriage to change...
make a plan..
stick to it...
and see where it gets you....

Thanks, Ark, for the kick in the pants I needed...! I've been feeling so righteously indignant...!

"If your husband has been telling you for a long time that he needs this from you..
and you acknowledge that you have played a role in creating that feeling...
and then don't follow through once you agreed to change...
then you are not being fair..."

This is true. And he apparently didn't realize that each time we had this talk, I was telling him what I needed, and he just didn't "hear" me, so he didn't change either. Sad...

"He certainly has a warped sense and use of SF since his whole alibi is that he did it (not all the way ) with someone else to get your attention..."

This is also true, and I guess I've been trying to punish him by withholding, under the guise of "I'm not ready yet"...it will be very difficult to get over this, but I've been thinking I should just do it (SF) anyway...hopefully we can change the way we relate to each other.

My next question is, how do I put aside my anger long enough to enjoy SF? I'm not good at compartmentalizing. And how can I tell if it's anger talking, or if my LB is running on empty?

Thanks!!