Hi everyone,

Well, I tried to wait to confront my husband until he came back in town, but we got into an arguement (I know I shouldn't have committed this LB) on the phone and he was telling me to be honest and I just couldn't hold it in any longer. To know that he was lying to me and telling ME to be honest was all I could take. I told him I knew he was continuing to call the OW with whom I had accused him of having an EA. He denied it vehemently at first, then admitted a little. I was so hurt and angry that he was still lying to me I told him to stop lying, that I knew he had been calling her every day, multiple times a day, morning, noon, and night. I told him I knew he was calling her when he walked the dog every night. I cried and cried asking him to please STOP LYING to me, I KNOW, I've seen your cell phone bill.

So much has happened since then, 10 days ago, I can't go into it all. Basically he says they had a friendship. He was able to talk to her about his problems because he couldn't talk to me. He has said he has feelings for her, but that it hasn't gone beyond an EA. Am I a fool to believe this?


We've had so many problems in our marriage, I've pushed him so far away that it has come to this. He doesn't know if he wants to stay with me. He says he doesn't want to be with the OW, but that he doesn't think he can make me happy. He thinks I will be happier with someone else. How do I convince him that I WANT HIM? I love him so much and want us to be happy together, but can this be possible when he is so unsure?

I am sticking to plan A. I'm afraid of Plan B. I feel that if I let him go, it will be over, that he won't want to come back.

He has been open to reading some of the articles on MB, but I don't want to push him too hard.

I feel so lost, so alone, so desperate. When I am alone, I just crumble.

He says he hates hurting me like this, but he is being honest about his feelings.

And how do you handle the hatred toward the OW? I've confronted her, too. I let her have it. I told her to stay the hell away from my H and to quit destroying my M. She said she wasn't the cause of our problems, that I was. I wanted so bad to just slap her face. How dare she excuse herself! She got involved with a married man. She has torn apart a family. Sure we had issues before her, but her presence magnified them and encouraged my H that he needed out, whether she said that or not. By being involved with my H, all the efforts I was making made no difference to him. She fueled the fire. I told her she made me sick and how dare she ruin my son's life. Oh, that makes me feel better to vent about that B....* Sorry.

nid,

we are in the same boat.

My story. read it. you will see the similarities

You did a LB. And i don't blame you. It is not easy. You go crazy when u know that WS is lying and lying to you. That is why i say Plan A is insane.

You must have a Plan. The dos and dont during you Plan A...How long need you do Plan A then prepare you Plan B letter and put a time limit to Plan B. Also follow Plan B rules...no contact with WS during Plan B. Of course all this is easier said than done.

I have made my own LB. From reading about your confrontation with OW...i guess i will not confront my WS's OW.

I have my own plan A list...a collection from all the other notable post. You should do one too so that it will be sort of your guideline.

Whenever you get frustrated with his lies...walk away...and keep telling yourself to control your pain and hurt. Because this pain and hurt if you succumb to it will cause a big LB and only makes him go further away. That is not what we want. If you do Plan A u must control the pain...there is no other way...do a good plan A to as much time as you can tolerate it then let him go. You have to let him go and do plan B when the time comes. You have already lost him and doing a good Plan A/B maybe your only chance to win him back. This is what i keep telling myself over and over again as i struggle with my Plan A.

I did the same thing you did. I got so upset at the constant lies that I blew up at H. And like your H, he lies so well. Even his sister, and my lawyer made the comment that he is so sincere. Well I believed that first hundred lies, after that I was on to him.

He continued to lie. Last week I caught them in bed together after he told me over and over that they had NC. Even more than the A, the lies are what hurt me so bad. This guy used to be my best friend.

Have you let her H know what is going on yet? He needs to know. Yes, OW and your H will be furious, but that is one of the consequences of the path they have chosen.

Take care of yourself and son. You can let him know there are problems, but mom's got a plan.

[QUOTE]

Originally posted by nid:



Basically he says they had a friendship.

Classic WS lie: "We're just friends".

He was able to talk to her about his problems because he couldn't talk to me.

This is a good point for you to remember .... what one of his EN's might be.

He has said he has feelings for her, but that it hasn't gone beyond an EA. Am I a fool to believe this?

Yes. You know he is capable of being a ready liar right now. Take his comments with a grain of salt. But don't argue. Write down things he says in a journal. Make a conscious effort to read his body language. it will tell you FAR more than his words.


We've had so many problems in our marriage, I've pushed him so far away that it has come to this.

And why did you push your husband away?

He doesn't know if he wants to stay with me.

It's more than an EA.

He says he doesn't want to be with the OW, but that he doesn't think he can make me happy. He thinks I will be happier with someone else.

Here is an ENORMOUS clue to one of your H's EN's.

He needs to be ADMIRED!!!!!

Start finding things he does RIGHT .... and ADMIRE HIM for those things. Start now.

When he does anything in an effort to please you, do not criticize his effort.

I am not saying you need to lick his boots, not at all. But open your eyes and honestly (vocally, and with your eyes) appreciate those things and qualities about him that you'd like him to continue.

How do I convince him that I WANT HIM?

By appreciating him. NOT by saying "I want you, you liar." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I love him so much and want us to be happy together, but can this be possible when he is so unsure?

Loving him is not enough right now. You must show respect and admiration. This is tricky when he is actively lying. Why do you think he lies to you? (retorical question, because I'm about to say why) ..... He lies so you won't think less of him. He needs you to admire him. He thinks if you know the truth you will think less of him.

I am sticking to plan A.

Good.

I'm afraid of Plan B.

Don't be afraid to employ any plan that will make the affair end. You are not ready for Plan B...... THAT might never happen, but this is way too premature for Plan B.

I feel that if I let him go, it will be over, that he won't want to come back.

Sweetie, you cannot "let him go".... because you don't hold him. The only way to restore your marriage is to recognize you don't control his decisions, only yours.

He is free to leave at any time.... and yet, he stays <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> This is your golden opportunity to admire him for staying even though he feels unappreciated!

Soooooo appreciate him!

If a spouse feels "held" against their will in their marriage, they rebel by trying to leave. Give him room to see what a winner you are. (Plan A)

He has been open to reading some of the articles on MB, but I don't want to push him too hard.

Don't push, don't hold. Let him come to you. If you admire him daily in small ways.... you'll be filling his love bank.

I feel so lost, so alone, so desperate. When I am alone, I just crumble.

Desperate women repel men. Be strong and lovely and give him reason to move toward you on his own accord.

He says he hates hurting me like this, but he is being honest about his feelings.

Admire any, and I mean ANY honest sharing of feelings. Even the ones that hurt. That's the only way he will decide it is safe to be open and honest with you.

And how do you handle the hatred toward the OW? I've confronted her, too. I let her have it. I told her to stay the hell away from my H and to quit destroying my M.

Think of OW like an insect. A fly buzzing around the honey. In your imagination, woosh her away with a flick of your hand.

She said she wasn't the cause of our problems, that I was. I wanted so bad to just slap her face. How dare she excuse herself!

Stay away from her.

She got involved with a married man. She has torn apart a family.

OW are women with low self-esteem. So, if you get in her face, she will see you as weak and have "power" over your emotional well-being. Stay away from her. SHE only can hurt your marriage if she fulfills the EN's you have neglected. So go fill your H's love bank.

Sure we had issues before her, but her presence magnified them and encouraged my H that he needed out, whether she said that or not. By being involved with my H, all the efforts I was making made no difference to him. She fueled the fire. I told her she made me sick and how dare she ruin my son's life.

OW are parasites to a marriage. But, your husband is STILL with you. She is a parasite! Do NOT empower the parasite by neglecting your husband's need to feel admired.

Men LOVE it when they feel they can REALLY please their lady down to her cuticles. OW makes your husband feel that his [censored] don't stink.( Not true, it stinks, but she had never done his laundry! LOL)

Oh, that makes me feel better to vent about that B....* Sorry.

Venting is OK

Pep

<small>[ January 24, 2004, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Nid, I think Pepper made some excellent observations about your H's EN's. Have you read about the various emotional needs on this forum? I think it could be a great help in showing you how to meet your H's needs and attract him back to you.

In the meantime, you need to be doing everything possible to end this affair. Have you contacted the OWH as we discussed earlier?

Thank you for all the advice everyone.

When I confronted the OW the first time, she informed me that she and her H had been separated for 5 months, shortly after my H and I had begun MC. My H was talking to her heavily then and months before that. I knew that all the efforts I had been making to meet his needs since we went to MC meant nothing to him because he was still having the EA all the while. His whole indifferent attitude in MC makes sense to me now and I see why he wasn't making the same efforts towards me.

Anyway, even after confronting my H, I wasn't convinced that he had stopped contact, so I contacted the OWH. I asked him if my H had anything to do with the reason he and his W had separated. He said "Yes". He also informed me of her cell phone bill that he had found and various other things he had noticed that had clued him into the A. My head was spinning. I was sure my H was lying that it was only an EA. That's when I decided to confront the OW again and I let her have it.

The OW called me crying that night and told me never to do that to her again in front of her kids (I didn't, they were in her car, not by us). She said she was going to step down from the board she was on with my H. I was glad. I wanted them to have absolutely no contact, no matter how minimal.

Her H called my H and I the next day and insisted that he had overreacted to me and that he had not left his wife because of my H. He said there were much bigger issues in their M. I didn't know what to believe. He said that he and his W were going to proceed with their divorce, amicably. He said, however, that he didn't want her to step down from the board because she needed something to keep her mind off of their divorce. I was infuriated. I don't really give a sh** about her. She has brought this problem on herself and should do the respectable thing and step down. All my anxiety came flooding back. They would still have contact.

What do I do now? How do I deal with the fact that they will still see eachother at least once a month and email eachother? She told me that she wouldn't even email him, but she already has. My H showed me and said he would not respond. He said he doesn't want to hurt me again. Like a fool, I believe him.

Any advice?

nid, if he is serious about recovering your marriage, he will need to send a no contact letter and end all contact himself - that is up to him, not her.

However, I don't get the idea that he is done with this affair and I also don't believe that you have been in Plan A long enough to successfully move to Plan B. I think the best plan of attack is to do your BEST to meet his meets in order to attract him back to YOU and away from her.

I would also do everything in your power to EXPOSE this affair whereever possible. I would talk to your H's family and possibly even consider sending a letter to this "board" they are on. The more light you can shine on the affair, the faster it will die off.

Have you considered calling the OWH again and discussing his backpeddling and asking him for help? Its pretty apparent that the affair probably precipitated their breakup.

OK, nid. You did well.

First, as you suspect, DO NOT believe anything you hear from your H or OW. Only believe half of what you see.

What is this board you speak of?

Does it have a chairperson? A "governing" set of bylaws? If so, it may be possible to do some more exposing.

What of your H's family? Do they know of what's going on?

WAT

Mel! We're psychic, Babe!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

How could exposing their A to the board possibly help my M? This is a close circle of people (many good friends) and my H would be humiliated and angry at me for doing that. He would never forgive me. I would love to blast her "good" name, but I could never do that to him.

WAT, I'd rather not go into details of what this board is all about, but the president of it is a good friend of ours. All our kids know eachother, there is just no way I could do that.

My H is not too close with his family and my goal is not to humiliate him, but to restore our relationship.

Okay, guys, its time for me to be a little more honest with you. 5 years ago, I had a 2 month PA with a coworker. I felt emotionally neglected in my M and fell for someone who made me feel really special. He gave me the time and attention I had craved from my H for so long. I am in no way excusing myself. It took me years to be able to look myself in the mirror and not see a big A on my forehead. I was utterly ashamed of myself and disgusted at what I had done. My H chose to stay with me. I ceased all contact with the OM after my H confronted me. I changed jobs. For a year or so, our M seemed to be wonderful unless the A was brought up. But gradually things returned to the way they had been prior to the A. Resentment built in my H. He related everything back to my A and belittled me constantly. We grew apart, we neglected eachother's needs and feelings. One of his biggest complaints was that he couldn't communicate with me, that I always walked away. The reason I didn't want to communicate with him is because he always made me feel like crap by referring to what I had done.

Our marriage was falling apart and he began confiding in the OW. He could talk to her. He insists he never crossed the line into a PA.

Now, I understand what he went through. Only perhaps it was worse for him since I had a PA. But to me, the EA hurts bad because of the emotionality invoved and all the lies and the continuance of it after I asked him to stop.

I'm sorry I didn't tell you all that before, it wasn't fair for me to make my H look like the bad guy.

How could exposing their A to the board possibly help my M?
Because NOTHING will get fixed in your marriage UNTIL the affair is over. It won't do anything except get worse.

I would love to blast her "good" name, but I could never do that to him.
It's mnot about "blasting" anyone. It is strictly about ending the affair. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm sorry I didn't tell you all that before, it wasn't fair for me to make my H look like the bad guy.
You couldn't make him look like anything. We couldn't tell him from a brick wall if we were standing next to him. This is a very anonymous place.

OK, nid. I suspected as much. This is why you've been tolerant for so long, right?

First, regarding more exposure, this is not about humiliation, it's about choices. Your H chose his path, just as you chose yours. If the truth causes humiliation, oh well.

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IS NEEDED!!!!!!

That is what exposure is all about!!! Would exposure to this "board" create this???

But, it may require you to "expose" yourself.

This is when we get tough. You have to decide if you want to save your marriage. If you do, we will demand that you come as clean as you need you H to be.

Expose him, expose yourself. Equal opportunity exposure.

If you can't take this, just let us know and we'll spend our precious time helping others.

So, use your experience to relate to him. You're on equal footing. I suggest again you get an appointment with Steve H. and humble yourself.

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nid:
<strong> How could exposing their A to the board possibly help my M? This is a close circle of people (many good friends) and my H would be humiliated and angry at me for doing that. He would never forgive me. I would love to blast her "good" name, but I could never do that to him.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nid, her "good name" is an illusion that is perpetuated by people who lie and cover up for her. Her name is not good, because she is not good. It is an illusion.


And of course he should feel humiliated for having an affair. Do you think he should feel proud? Of course he will be angry when you expose him. But he will be humiliated, not at the exposure, but because of his BEHAVIOR. And your silence only ENABLES his behavior, Nid. People are not humilated when you expose GOOD behavior!

We don't recommend exposure for the purpose of humiliation [altho that is an expected and natural consequence of bad behavior] but because exposure can serve to bring the affair to a QUICK END. And yes, it makes people mad to be exposed, but it is a short term lovebuster that has very long term benefits.

Harley recommends doing everything short of taking out a billboard. He recommends doing everything in your power to END the affair, and this is a powerful tool. When exposed to the light of day, the affair isn't so much fun anymore and it loses it's air of secrecy and fantasy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Expose him, expose yourself. Equal opportunity exposure.

If you can't take this, just let us know and we'll spend our precious time helping others.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WAT, my H never exposed me to my family or co-workers out of respect for me and I ended the A without such exposure.

Maybe I shouldn't post here anymore. I won't take up any more of your time. I'll deal with this on my own.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nid:
WAT, my H never exposed me to my family or co-workers out of respect for me and I ended the A without such exposure.

Maybe I shouldn't post here anymore. I won't take up any more of your time. I'll deal with this on my own. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nid, please don't go anywhere, just take what you want and leave the rest.

I would only point out that the point of exposure is to faciliate an end to the affair. You ENDED your affair when your H found out. Your H HAS NOT so the situations are completely different.

One should not "respect" an affair, nor should a BS help a WS hide their affair. You should not "respect" his intention to destroy you and your marriage. That only serves to ENABLE the affair. There is no virtue in hiding destructive behavior for a person who is HELLBENT on continuation of said destruction. Your H, it appears, has no intention of stopping. His GF, it appears, also has no intention of stopping.

There is no virtue in helping them to continue to destroy you and your son, Nid. You need to do everything possible to end this affair and protect yourself. Please protect YOU AND YOUR SON. DON'T PROTECT THEM.

I sense here that you feel you might deserve all this because of your affair, Nid. That is preposterous. You have paid your dues and have in no way forfeited your right to PROTECT yourself from him.

<small>[ January 27, 2004, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

nid - my point was that if you want to do the most to end his affair and recover your marraige, you MUST expose him. In dong so, you must be willing to expose your self. You can't be a hypocrit.

If you don't want to expose him, thus not doing everything available to you to save your marriage, then don't, don't expose yourself either, and take your chances.

That's all I meant.

I sincerely hope you choose the best path for you and your H, whatever that is. I won't pretend to know what that is. But for most situations, exposure and its inherent truth is good and necessary, in the end.

Good luck,
WAT

Okay, so I'm back. You guys are the only ones I can talk to.

I'm so confused because my H is still here, but sometimes it only seems in body. He doesn't want to be intimate with me because he says he wants us to learn how to be friends first. Can't we learn to be friends and at the same time share intimacy?

He gave into his desire yesterday, and we were intimate. But now I know he wishes he hadn't because he is so cool and indifferent toward me. I want to be close to him, how do I handle this? Should I just carry on as if his coolness doesn't bother me?

Hi nid - I think I was a bit harsh to you the other day, so please give me another chance, since you've given "us" another chance, in general.

Please read this post further down the page:
Creative way to inform ...... (I can't remember the EXACT title. My oldstimers disease. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

This is not your exact situation, but Steve's advice about how to "ease" into constructive conversation with your H may be appropriate for you.

"Learning how to be friends first" is actually a good place to start - regardless of whether your H really means this or not. This is entirely Plan A consistent, along with the intimacy thing. Until you're ready to implement Plan B, you should be striving to meet any of your H's needs you can.

Yes, this requires swallowing hard and sometimes feeling like a doormat. This doesn't mean you give up your boundaries. I know, this sounds contradictory. It's a fine line.

I suggest you take every opportunity to be close to him, but don't come across as needy. When you get the opportunity to play "hard to get" - don't ask me how to do this because you women are SOOOOO good at it and you can make us guys look like babbling idiots <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> - DO IT!!! Hopefully some women will offer advice here.

This reminds me of that old joke: How are men and linoleum the same? If you lay them right at the beginning, you can walk all over them for years.

Please keep coming back.

WAT

Thanks WAT. You always seem to make me laugh. I'll check out that post. And I'll suck it up. But I can't help but get the feeling that he isn't being close to me because he's still in contact with her. He insists he is not and I want badly to believe him. But that mistrust just keeps nagging at me. Does it make sense that he wants to not be intimate so we can learn to be friends?

And should I believe that there never was a PA? Their excessive phone conversations began last April. Am I foolish to believe they never "crossed the line"?

And the OW is still emailing him about "business" things. He's shown me, but I always have these crazy thoughts like he has another email address I don't know about. Or he's calling her from a pay phone. I feel like I'm going insane with suspicion!