This answer is based on what is usually the case. Your case my be different, but I bet not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But I can't help but get the feeling that he isn't being close to me because he's still in contact with her.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very likely he is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He insists he is not and I want badly to believe him. But that mistrust just keeps nagging at me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your intuition is likely correct.

A quote from Michelle Weiner Davis, "Divorce Busters" - don't believe a single thing you hear and only half of what you see.

Now nid - you have some "other side" experience here. This doesn't mean your state of mind was exactly the same, but what do you recall of your honesty and trustworthiness?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does it make sense that he wants to not be intimate so we can learn to be friends?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope. Not for a guy. He wants to be intimate because he, er, wants sexual fulfilment. BUT, this is one of his ENs. Feed the beast.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And should I believe that there never was a PA?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope, again. Refer to Michelle, above.

But now the good news, even assuming it was PA: He's a guy and not a woman. For guys, PA alone with no EA is a non-investment. Guys can EASILY be PA and walk away. Women seem to be the opposite. Most women seem to NEED the EA first. But for both, EA is FAR AND AWAY the most difficult to overcome. It requires an emotional attachment rather than a purient desire. So, don't dwell on whether it's PA or not - assume it is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And the OW is still emailing him about "business" things. He's shown me, but I always have these crazy thoughts like he has another email address I don't know about. Or he's calling her from a pay phone. I feel like I'm going insane with suspicion!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Once again, your intuition is likely correct. I recommend that the safe assumption is he's doing all these things. BUT - even if he's truthful, YOUR actions should be the same. From the standpoint of what you can control, this is less about what HE'S doing and MORE about what YOU should be doing! Fix whatever issues you brought to the table and meet his ENs. This is all you can do.

I know, fixating of what he might be doing or what lies he might be telling is hard to ignore. It drives BSs nuts. Try very hard to concentrate on what YOU can do. If it helps to assume the worst about him - PA and lies, lies, lies - just assume it. It can't get much worse.

WAT

Thanks for the advise WAT.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now nid - you have some "other side" experience here. This doesn't mean your state of mind was exactly the same, but what do you recall of your honesty and trustworthiness?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Once my H confronted me, I told him everything and I stopped all contact. I did write a letter to the OM a few months later, but I never gave it to him. I wrote it and then decided I shouldn't send it. My H found it. I even quit my job.

I always seem to have good intentions, but the OW always seems to come up and then I LB. We just had a huge arguement. It started as some simple questions from me and he got defensive. So I began to get upset and so on. Anyway, I told him that I thought we had hope, but I could tell he's pulling away from me. Instead of telling me why he's doing that, he asked me why I thought he was. Everything escalated from there. I insisted he have NC with OW and he began to go into how that is impossible right now. I told him if he cared about me and our M, then he would step down from that board, so that they would have no reason to communicate. The arguement kept escalating. He reverted back to what I had done to him. He essentially said maybe we can't fix this. I lost it, ran to my room and cried my heart out. He has no hope. I told him later that I can't keep trying and trying if he isn't going try at all. He said he tried for years and I never listened. When I tried to explain to him that whenever he tried in the past he hurt me by belittling me and punishing me for my mistake, I couldn't take it so I wouldn't listen.

The problem is we've never tried at the SAME time. Also, we don't speak the same love language (have you read The Five Love Languages?). So my attempts never reached him and his never reached me.

Now that we're on the brink of separation, he doesn't want to try. He wants to leave and try to be friends. I told him if he left, I didn't think that would help us become friends.

I'm so lost and confused. I can't get anything done at work, I don't eat, I can't sleep, and I run until I can't run any more. I feel like such a failure. Only my son keeps me from quitting on everything.

I want to do Plan A well, but I keep screwing it up. Why can't I control myself?

He knows I post here. I've let him read what I've posted because I don't want to hide things from him. Do you think this is okay?

Should I encourage him to post here? He feels he has no one to talk to.

YES, YES, YES!!

It is absolutely correct and beneficial to both of you that he knows you post here, for him to read your posts, and for him to post here if he chooses.

Have you read up on the Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA) and Radical Honesty?? Your homework assignment - browse this site til you find this stuff and report back where you found it - extra credit if you use POJA and Radical Honesty in the same sentence.

My response to your prior message is: you have to learn to bite your tongue when you feel conversation escalating out of control.

Now for your H - make sure he reads my prior response where I advised you to not believe him about contact with OW, etc. Tell him I and others WILL NOT flame him for that stuff. If he is man enough to come here and humble himself like you did, he will be embraced with more compassion than he could have imagined. He has a LOT of people here to talk to and he has NOTHING to lose in trying.

Also, tell us about your son - age, attitude, etc

WAT

<small>[ January 30, 2004, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

My H and I both posted her during our early months of recovery, that is one of the things that helped us the most. No one ever flamed him. Now I still post and read...my H mostly just reads.

Have you thought about setting up an appointment with the Harley's? SH was very helpful. We did that along with IC and regular MC. We needed all the help we could get.

I credit our strong love for each other, our kids, MB, MC and IC with our recovery.

Remember recovery is about both of your committing to it. Then you need to process the A, the state of your M before the A...then deal with all that. You also will have to deal with your recover, his recovery and your marital recovery.

Did you get IC or MC after your A?

Have you read any of the A books?

You sound like you are falling apart fast...think about making an appointment with your regular doctor in addition to an IC.

Keep posting....

Oh, I forgot to add that my H on the first dday only confessed to an EA that had progressed to kissing. I never believed that and pushed him for a polygraph from the beginning...over the period of the next 6-7 weeks he finally got most of the truth out and then he took the first polygraph and failed. He then told me rest of the truth and later after our recovery was very solid he took another polygraph as a gift of piece of mind for me....

He wanted to prove that we really had a clean slate and that he had finally mastered the MB Honesty principle.

When I first asked him to take a polygraph he refused, said that he didn't want to take one..said he was telling the truth and he wanted me to just believe him (hmmm...didn't buy that line for a second only convinced me more he was lying). Anyway you can't believe anything a WS says when they are in the fog.

Have you considered going Plan B if he doesn't agree to NC?

You also got good advice about exposing the A...no matter how embarrasing it is it is less painful then losing your spouse.

I told OW's H immediately...he then told her parents and his. I called my Mom...she talked to my H on dday right after....I also told our kids (only that his friendship with OW crossed the line and they had kissed)...our best friend, etc.

I also told OW if she didn't stay away and if she didn't tell me whole truth I would send an email to the whole neighborhood, to her family, all her friends that I knew and principle of her daughter's religious school (I was serious about all but last one) she knew me well enough to know I meant it and she spilled everything (thank goodness her story matched my H's).

Anyway...who cares if he gets mad (my H didn't, he later admitted he admired me for my courage and for fighting so hard for him)....is mad better or is it better to lose him to OW?????

Also...what good is pride if you lose your H and your family breaks up because you didn't do all in your power to stop the A???

Remember...all's fair in love and war!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did you get IC or MC after your A? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">After my PA 5+ years ago, I wanted to go to MC, but my H refused. Things were okay for about a year. Then everything got worse his resentment and suspicion built up even though I had NC and even changed jobs.

When I discovered his EA, about 6 months ago, we went to MC. He only went to 2 sessions and said he didn't need to go anymore, he had heard all he needed to hear. All the while he had been continuing his EA. All my attempts to meet his needs were for naught.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you read any of the A books? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I read, After the Affair. He listened to some of it. He gave me The Five Love Languages, I read it. He did not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you considered going Plan B if he doesn't agree to NC? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. If he will not have NC, I want him to leave. I also told him that if he sees her or talks to her during that time, I don't want him to come back.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You also got good advice about exposing the A...no matter how embarrasing it is it is less painful then losing your spouse. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He told me that if I expose the A, then I am not thinking about our son. That he will learn of it and his schoolmates will tease him. He will be shamed.

I really do want to expose her to all her friends, who also happen to be friends of ours. But, I hesitate because of what my H said to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nid:
<strong> [QUOTE]He told me that if I expose the A, then I am not thinking about our son. That he will learn of it and his schoolmates will tease him. He will be shamed.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Translation: "Don't shame me."

OK nid, statements like this make my blood boil.

Now he's using your son as cover. This is the lowest act for a parent - not only to have a family threatening affair in the first place, but to use a child as an excuse.

This is not the act of a rational person. Try real hard NOT to get upset at him - he is clearly irrational and intoxicated in the affair. YOU are far more in control. Don't stoop to his level and unwittingly contribute to the poor situation.

WAT

Thats what I was thinking WAT. I really can't see any of his friends saying anything, unless their parents talk openly about it in front of them, which I doubt they would. Even then, kids don't usually tease about parental affairs, right? I've never heard of that and I'm an elementary school teacher.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He told me that if I expose the A, then I am not thinking about our son. That he will learn of it and his schoolmates will tease him. He will be shamed.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How very manipulative. I guess he would rather your son's family be destroyed than have him embarrassed at school. If he is truly concerned about his son's well being, a good place to start would his adulterous affair that has caused untold grief, heartache and disruption to his family.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really do want to expose her to all her friends, who also happen to be friends of ours. But, I hesitate because of what my H said to me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stop protecting her, Nid. Protect yourself and your son!

<small>[ January 30, 2004, 08:57 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Also, if he is doing something that shames his family, wouldn't the logical conclusion be to STOP the embarrassing behavior instead of trying to HIDE IT? Maybe if it wasn't hidden, he wouldn't do it?

nid - we're coming full circle here.

Expose all.

When he played the "son" card he was getting desperate. He knows he's wrong. Expose soon.

If you're still not sure about this, get an appointment with Steve Harley and he'll make it all make sense.

WAT

Opps! I botched this message.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

See below.

<small>[ January 31, 2004, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: auto009988 ]</small>

nid, I found the quote from A.M that I like so much.

"It is the advantage and the nature of the strong that they can bring crucial issues to the fore and take a clear position regarding them. The weak always have to choose between alternatives that are not their own." (Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Letters and Papers from Prison)

I have been in a similar situation such as yours. I was reacting to my wife's immoral behavior rather than making my own choices. After a great deal of thought and effort I am finally doing what I BELIEVE IS RIGHT to save our marriage and protect myself.

It takes time to get to that point and I sometimes revert to reacting to her behaviors. But, I am getting better at doing what I must do.

I do still love my wife more than anybody and I still pray for the day she returns and we will start reconciliation.

<small>[ January 31, 2004, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: auto009988 ]</small>

I'm posting on both of my threads right now, so sorry if I repeat myself.

I am trying to get up the courage to expose. I'm not worried about myself, but worried that my H will never forgive me for it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is the advantage and the nature of the strong that they can bring crucial issues to the fore and take a clear position regarding them. The weak always have to choose between alternatives that are not their own." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks Auto, I like that quote too. I'm gaining the courage.

I've been telling my H that if he leaves me and has contact with her, there is no coming back to me. Is this wrong? Are we ready for Plan B? I feel like that will mean divorce will be the next step. I can't stand the thought of him choosing her over me. That is too painful. I'm afraid I wouldn't want him back. Should I not give him that ultimatum?

Ok, Nid, I am just thinking out loud here. But I think you are way overdue for Plan B and may have even exasperated the situation with a prolonged Plan A.

HOWEVER, you cannot go to Plan B before you expose them, if you decide to do that. If you expose them after you are in Plan B, you will have no opportunity to do some damage control. If you expose them before, you can take a few weeks to do damage control and then move to Plan B when he has a good taste in his mouth.

Whether you decide to expose or not, I really hope you go to Plan B soon. He needs to be pulled off that fence. And yes, he will be with her more often, but that will simply hasten the END of the affair. It will remove the air of secrecy and hence the fantasy aspect. He will get to see her with all her warts, etc.

And she does not have the benefit of this program and will eventually start lovebusting. Remember, thier relationship is built ENTIRELY on deceit and fantasy, so it will erode very quickly once exposed to the light of day.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nid:
<strong>

I've been telling my H that if he leaves me and has contact with her, there is no coming back to me. Is this wrong? Are we ready for Plan B? I feel like that will mean divorce will be the next step. I can't stand the thought of him choosing her over me. That is too painful. I'm afraid I wouldn't want him back. Should I not give him that ultimatum? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">nononno, don't give him that ultimatum. You don't want to have to deliver on that threat, Nid. Plan B is not the next step to divorce, but the next step for RECONCILIATION. See, Plan B often forces them to make a choice when their needs are not being met anymore by the BS. The OW cannot possibly meet all the needs that you meet. And when you go to Plan B, the WS is forced to see that.

But as long as he has you around meeting some of his needs, he can continue to have some of his needs met by the OW. He is getting his needs met in BOTH places so has no motivation to end his relashipship with the OW. When you withdraw from him, it is often a huge shock and an eye opener for the WS that brings them off the fence.

<small>[ January 31, 2004, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

I would not tell your H that there is no coming back to you if he goes of with the OW, unless you are 110% certain that is what you would want.

Rather, I would draw up a list of what it will take for him to return. These are your boundries. Your way of being strong and choosing from your options rather than his.

The conditions would obviously include no contact with OM in any way shape or form. Serious commitment to counseling and other marriage improvement methods. Plenty of time together to do fun stuff. No more secret e-mail accounts, IM accounts, etc. And I am certain you can think of a few more.

Don't cut him off 100% unless you are certain that is what you want.

Okay, thanks Mel and Auto. I think I understand. I am going to read up on Plan B and make sure that I expose the A before I go to Plan B.

I will not lie though, it will be really hard for me to take him back if I know he has been with her. I guess I'll have to decide what to do when the time comes.

Nid, he is with her now. He probably saw her yesterday, don't ya think? I know it is damn hard to stomach, but you really have 2 choices here:

1. flounder along with no end in site as you are in Plan A with them contacting each other on the sly

2. cut him loose and let him be with her in the open

With #1, they can linger along FOREVER because he is getting his needs met in TWO places and the affair retains the exciting aura of secrecy and fantasy. You die a slow death watching this up close.

With #2, the affair is more likely to die out more quickly because he will see that the OW cannot possibly meet all of his needs. He will miss you. And since it is built on deceit and fantasy, it will hasten it's end without the air of secrecy. It will take the wind out of their sails.

Advantage with #2 is that you don't have to die a death of a thousand cuts watching the affair up close and having your nose rubbed in it.

Usually, option #2 is the best way to get your marriage back on track and save your sanity. While painful at first, it is actually LESS painful than Plan A after the initial few weeks because you miss him less and are not faced with the painful reality of the affair and all its lies.

Also, with you OUT of the picture in Plan B, they can't demonize you any more and use you as an obstacle to see all the warts of the affair and of each other.

Plan A can actually cause more harm than good if you stay in it too long.