What's life all about, anyway?

What is M about? Why do we get M'd? When our M's are in the toilet, what should we do? Figure out why they're in that condition, or go find a surrogate S?

Pepper's right. If you're willing 2 go out 2 make your WS jealous, you don't really care about them. You don't even really care about how they make you feel - which is the wrong reason for M'ing them in the first place - you care about feeling wanted. You can't even really care about getting them back, because what would you be getting back? A player like yourself?

What you're doing by dating isn't accomplishing something positive - at least not directly (=honestly). What you're doing is trying 2 steer around your own problems. You're own personal growth issues. The root cause of the decline of your M that you have sole control over - your place in the equation. You have NO RIGHT 2 do that. The only way 2 solve your problems is 2 slog right smack dab through them.

I'm still amazed, thinking back, at how unable I was 2 address my problems - the things that tweaked my W about my behavior and that she used 2 justify her A - while I was dwelling on how 2 force or coerce her 2 do something that I thought I wanted, that I thought was the right thing for US as a 2ple and family. When I let go of that, I was finally able 2 focus on my own shortcomings.

Leave OP out of this process for now.

-ol' 2long

is the issue finding a way to destroy the affair and save the marriage or is the issue finding a way to destroy and save the marriage
What?

...BUT...only if we do it ONE WAY....save the marriage YES! but to hell with it if someone gets a bit inventive or down and dirty in persuite of their goal.
As long as it works, eh?

play the role of the poor but honest victim.
Who is "playing a role"?
Whether the spouse returns or not, WE have to live with ourselves and our actions (lying an dishonesty in this case).

there is and always will be a never ending debate...regarding the morality of pragmatism.

and if i remeber correctly, the original post put forth the idea, the concept, to create the "illusiuon" of an outside interest...not to actually have one!

this is important because on this issue, pepper's point was the best argument i read...that is to use another human being to achieve your goal would be reprehensable. it would truly be unfair to use another person this way.

baring that however, to create the illusion in the mind of a cheating spouse that the BS is now dating and going on with their life...i find nothing wrong with this at all...including the lie that is involved. sorry people...but i find this kind of minor deception the whitest of white lies especially when faced with the monumental deceptions being practiced by WSs.

and by the way, may i remind those who chose to disagre with me, that i'm the one AROUND HERE that has stated publically that i don't believe ALL MARRIAGE SHOULD BE SAVED! however, and this is a big however, when a person decides that they want to save their relationship at any and all cost...a view point often advanced by the majority on this board,...then in my opinion, the tactic under discussion here is not only OK to use but should be used.

but hey, that's me...and one other thing...i respect all and any opinion so please, but please...don't bother responding to me on religious grounds. i'm a practicing heathen! LOL

i believes that G-D in his/her heaven is the only final arbitor of right and wrong...not those who can cleverly quote scripture...so if i'm to be damned for my wicked ways i'll wait for the good lord to do it.

coach

Boiling out of MB semi-retirement for this one...

It seems to me this whole discussion misses the big picture.

The message is to get on with your life.

Not to go through endless social contortions so that you can show your WS that you are getting on with your life.

The whole discussion seems to be about whether it is appropriate or not to "date" (whatever that means) someone else so you can "show" your spouse how independent you are. But if the whole thing is a show for your spouse -- you are not being independent. You are being desperately, endlessly clingy in a whole new way. (Suppose you put on the little black dress and nobody sees? If a tree falls unobserved in the forest -- does it still make a sound?)

The message is: Get a life. Forget about what the WS is doing. If a friend of the opposite sex asks you out (as has happened with me), go if you feel like it. Make your boundaries clear. My male companions were not "tools" -- they know my story and my sitch. Stop thinking about whether the WS is seeing you with someone or not. Have a good time.

Whether the WS comes back or not is dependent on so many variables that we can't manipulate. But whether or not they do, YOU have to have a life. Make it a good one. Stop thinking about them! Stop thinking about ploys to get them back.

Don't go through the show of having a "big life" -- have a big life!

The tactic of creating the illusion that the BS has started to date someone else probably does work in many cases like Carolkh's, but the BS's lack of resolve to simply say: 'No, I won't take you back UNTIL you end your affair with the OP by sending a NC letter which I will personally drop off at the mail box AND you willingly agree to implement a marital recovery plan that an MB oriented counselor draws up for BOTH of us to follow. If we are to remain married I don't want to return to the old marriage we had before your affair' neutralizes the opportunity the tactic gives him/her. The tactic should only be considered as a 'foot in the door' opportunity NOT as the total solution to saving and rebuilding the marriage.

<small>[ January 26, 2004, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

when a person decides that they want to save their relationship at any and all cost...a view point often advanced by the majority on this board,...
Huh?
You must be viewing a different website other than www..marriagebuilders.com.
I can't say I've seen anyone with a view that marriages should be always saved or at any cost.

<small>[ January 26, 2004, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

So Chris what do you do when they have one foot out the door and are saying goodbye and not wanting to talk but yoou both know you do not want to kill this marriage but that you both need help but are unsure it can be helped. How do you get to the person going out the door, who again does not want this to die, and the person letting them go out the door who also doesn't want this. Both are afraid that the other person has not changed and they also do not want to stay with the old person. How do you get to show the other that you finally get it when they are not sure they want to take that risk that you have not? P.S. I wish I had spell check on this thingy..LOL

Glenn,
I wasn’t saying to never save a marriage. But coach seemed to be saying the “party line” here is that all marriages must be saved and at any cost.” That is not the “party line”.
But if you do not understand what caused the relationship to get where it is, then it WILL happen again.

So Chris what do you do when they have one foot out the door and are saying goodbye and not wanting to talk but yoou both know you do not want to kill this marriage but that you both need help but are unsure it can be helped.
YOU help it as best you can. Do Plan A. Read “Surviving An Affair”. Read the Marriage Builders principles and learn them and apply them to your life.

How do you get to the person going out the door, who again does not want this to die,
You have to show them by your actions, not words. If you can’t walk the walk, then talking the talk ain’t gonna help squat.

Bottom line is you cannot do anything to make the other change their mind. You CAN do plenty about changing yourself and your attitude. And this can make all the difference in having the other person consider doing something.

<small>[ January 26, 2004, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Even if dating someone else would bring back your wife...you still have engaged in behavior that is problematic.

1) Your wife would have every right to make you end all contact with the OW/friend/date. By dating you cross marital boundaries and that person has no place in your recovery, so you lose that friend who did you such a "favor".

2) You really can't count on the motivation of the OW to "date" you.
-She might have deep, unspoken feelings for you and this is HER opportunity.
-She might hate your wife.
-She might love drama.

There are many cases of restraining orders on these boards against OP...do you think those WSs deliberately chose stalking nutcases? Or did they simply have a few inappropriate dates with the wrong person.

And, though my situation is different than Melody Lanes, I dated after an 18 month Plan A, while serving D papers. But, I didn't marry the OM, I reconciled with my H...and we suffered all the consequences of both of us being betrayers and betrayed. And neither the OW or OM were supporters of "no contact".

The BS dating makes recovery much less likely and easily quadruples the problems and difficulties if recovery is attempted.

If there were do-overs, I wouldn't date.

And, my H was out the door. We were separated 7 times, 14 of 21 months. That's when my Plan A took place.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by coach3530:
<strong> there is and always will be a never ending debate...regarding the morality of pragmatism. . . coach </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Before we start debating the morality of it, how about debating the actual effectiveness? Some guy says this method works. Well, every quack and charlatan claims the exact same thing. Somehow I never see the claim being made, "This actually isn't very effective, but I like to see how many suckers will do it anyway".

So I ask again, where is the proof that this method will actually work? Because if there isn't any real proof, maybe what we should be debating is the morality of being stupidly gullible.

<small>[ January 26, 2004, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: elspeth ]</small>

you know what chris, i feel like being accrimonious this afternoon so here it is. weather it's true or not, (and i hope it isn't), you come off as being one of the most self rightious people and single minded linear thinking persons that i've ever come in contact with...not to mention dogmatic.

well here's a flash for you...people do and behave all kinds of ways when they're in pain and you are not the final arbitor of wheather they are right or wrong. you tend to be judgemental to a tee while cloaking it in the guise of logic and if the truth be told, at time you are not only non-sympathetic but down right mean spirtited.

and here's another flash for you...you're not the only person who believes in this system....and your faith in it doesn't entitle you to nay say or be the conscirnce of of every person that comes here with a problem. more imnportant it doesn't give you the right to try and intimadate those who would express differing viewpoints from your own...and weather you want to cop to it or not that's what you attempt to do...sorry good buddy but as far as i can see your a board bully...and that's a shame cause i truly believe your heart is in the right place.

coach

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
How do you get to the person going out the door, who again does not want this to die,
You have to show them by your actions, not words. If you can’t walk the walk, then talking the talk ain’t gonna help squat.

Bottom line is you cannot do anything to make the other change their mind. You CAN do plenty about changing yourself and your attitude. And this can make all the difference in having the other person consider doing something. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well said. Work on your side of the equation and WALK THE WALK.

you know what chris, i feel like being accrimonious this afternoon so here it is. weather it's true or not, (and i hope it isn't), you come off as being one of the most self rightious people and single minded linear thinking persons that i've ever come in contact with...not to mention dogmatic.
Wow!

well here's a flash for you...people do and behave all kinds of ways when they're in pain
I never said they don’t. As a matter of fact, I have said people DO behave in all kinds of ways. But that doesn’t mean because they are hurting it’s “alright” if they behave like a crack head.

and you are not the final arbitor of wheather they are right or wrong.
Again, you are correct. But when a question is posted, it is WIDE OPEN for debate on these forums.

and ask somet you tend to be judgemental to a tee while cloaking it in the guise of logic and if the truth be told,
Who was I “judging” in this topic?

at time you are not only non-sympathetic but down right mean spirtited.
When?

and here's another flash for you...you're not the only person who believes in this system....and your faith in it doesn't entitle you to nay say or be the conscirnce of of every person that comes here with a problem.
Huh?

more imnportant it doesn't give you the right to try and intimadate those who would express differing viewpoints from your own
MB principles don’t leave much to “interpretation”.
Dating while married. “Pretend” dating (or lying). Both of these are pretty cut and dried NON-MB principles.
If one chooses to do these, it is their choice. But they are NOT inline with MB. And this site is based on those principles.

...and weather you want to cop to it or not that's what you attempt to do...sorry good buddy but as far as i can see your a board bully
Because I disagree with you (or someone else)?

...and that's a shame cause i truly believe your heart is in the right place.
I come here for one simple reason.
People have questions about what they can do to save their marriage. I think I know what MB is and what it tries to achieve and I think I can answer some of their questions.

I KNOW I’m not the “softest” guy here but I’m not out to win any awards.

Chris, Over the past 5 years, I think I've seen a few of your posts and I read Coach's post about you, and went "Huh?".

I think you're in line with MB's main concepts, even if you aren't "soft".

I must be radically honest...

I have asked moderators to look at Coach's post about Chris because it seemed to me to be more of a personal attack rather than a debate of the subject.... I think it may have crossed that line, but I am not certain.

Just so you all know....

Pep

kam,
Well said. Work on your side of the equation and WALK THE WALK.
Me? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
Cause, yes I do see that post could be directed at some of my posts.
If it wasn't posted to me, then never mind... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

pep,
I have asked moderators to look at Coach's post about Chris
No worries here.

<small>[ January 26, 2004, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Maybe Coach is having a bad day???

I remember I posted one sharp as hell remark to Lelana's husband.... I mean it was nasty!!! 2Of_A_Kind (2OAK) gently reminded me to play nice, and I deleted befor it was removed.

We're all entitled to get squirrly sometimes.

Pep

Speaking of 2oak, (okay, so we're writing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )
ask him if he thinks I'm too gentle.

Is this a discussion board or a pulpit?

Why not take Glenn's question at face value and stick to discussing the pros and cons?

The question, to me, is whether its a good idea to pursue an independent social life during plan A. I'd say its a great idea, even if it gives the appearance of 'dating'. This way you're in good shape regardless of which way the marriage goes.

Some of you seem more comfortable zoning out on anti-deps and think there's a bizarre sort of honor in going down with the ship.

If what you're doing isn't working then change tactics. There's more than one way to skin a cat, isn't there?

Glenn's original question was not about an "independent social life". It was exactly, "Should I date to bring her back"

As far as an "independent social life", you have no choice but to have one as your sposue is not part of your life.


and think there's a bizarre sort of honor in going down with the ship.
Just kinda curious why some people think that the ONLY way to "move on" is to have a current, active "companion" and vice-cersa, if you don't, then you are not moving on?

And if you won't take them back until they stop seeing the op, why would/should they come back if YOU are seeing someone?

<small>[ January 27, 2004, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>