FHL<BR>What's the next chapter? Can't find my book.

yeah, right wasstubborn. You lost the book...and I was going to have you lead the next one. Convenient...or is losing the book a deeper message on how you feel about forgiveness now. Hmmm.<P>The next chapter is about Refraining from Judgements. I read ahead and it is another toughy. Don't think I'll have time tomorrow, but maybe Wednesday if you can't find the book. Maybe I can squeeze it in in the morning...<P>Lost the book...now that's not the image I have of you. I should be the one losing the book.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

FHL<BR>You know what a nuthouse this has been the last week. Hockey, soccer, football, building, stray cats, sick dog.......<BR>And I'm reading two books at once.<BR>Soooooo let's say I misplaced it. I will find it. I promise.<BR>I think the judgements one has something to do with letting go of expectations too doesn't it?<BR>I promise I will find it but I want to know if cl has the book yet. She could be the leader. I'm a much better follower. So much to learn.

OK...20hr week part time job. Crashed computer with over 10 hours of talk time to techies...Bball for two, soccer for two, church work and a H with a new job he is putting 12 hour days in through Feb. probibly.....and a three year old. Hah!<P>Plus I am domestically challenged.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

But I will bet any money that you are wayyyyyy more organized than I am!!!!!!<BR>That is where I am challenged.

I doubt it...although I tend to be a little obsessive...so when I throw myself into things at the expense of everything else, except my children who are always #1...and my H has always been #1 at least in my heart, too.<P>Since Jan 8, my mission has been my marriage...and my own recovery. <P>I have to say my job has suffered a bit because I have not spent to much time thinking about it like I used to. I am known for being exceptionally detail and service orientated at work. Now I do enough to cover my tail. Have to get other passions back, but it is tough. This has consumed me.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

cl...say you have the book and will lead us!<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

I'm still thinking about the inferior/superior game.<BR>Suppose a betrayer ends the affair and says he is repentant. Then he sits there and goes on about the good thing he has done. He whines about how everyone is looking down on him. Is this an attempt to be superior? Does the wrongdoer use the wrong in order to be superior by spouting off about how heroic it is to stop the affair instead of displaying honest humility?<BR>I guess to me an apology that comes with an attitude isn't really an apology.<BR>Just a hypothetical question.<BR>

Hypothetically, WS:<P>IF my husband were to admit to an affair, this is EXACTLY how he would react.<P>A bit narcistic (could use your spelling book, FHL!!!) Is it possible we are married to the same man, and he is a bigamist? LOL-we are starting to all talk the same language, AND sound alike, aren't we? Lord help us all!!! <P>FHL, I know what I want. A miracle. The truth. A husband that appreciates me, and values honesty - and wants good kids, and has a backbone - but not an abusive husband! He has a backbone, alright - only with me! <P>And I think those things that I want are not out of fear, but out of the upbringing that I had - and expectations for my life. I don't think it has anything to do with fear, really.<P>So, for me - this delicate detachment is really a hard one. Can't figure out how to do it without building resentment. I know how to detach - but I use hostility to do it. Odviously, that is the OLD cycle. I think I need a new approach.<P>And, I don't care who leads step 6!!!! I'll do it if you want! Anybody got a scanner and can email it to me? <P>FHL, you have done terrific - and I think and vote for you to continue! Okay - maybe you and WS are good analyzers and should do this together... And CL should be the "fixer"... And I'll be the patient, because sometimes I just don't get it...<P>Cl - Answers how to fix this problem?<P>You have the diagnosis now, what is the cure?<P>1)H can be nice/romantic /touching when all is going okay in his world, but shuts it off like a faucet when things do not go according to his plan.<P>2.H believes he has a sense of entitlement to preference, because he is a male...And needs approval from females - but believes he has the right to control/dictate women because of his preference.<P>3.H believes that he must continue his behaviors learned from childhood. <P>4.H uses me as scapegoat, and in other relationships will use others as scapegoats. <P>5.H feels inadequate and needs to compare himself to those less adequate for self esteem. <P>6.W feels like clobbering husband, but is using a tremendous amount of self restraint to keep from doing so. She is losing patience.<P>***<BR>Ok CL - how about a prescription for treatment????<P>Delicate detachment without resentment?

Trustntruth,<BR>Well I am not the wise young cl, but since your personality profile is so much like mine (INFP) which in my case can be likened to a marshmellow with a steeley hard core, maybe I can suggest a few things.<P>Trustntruth, you are tenderhearted. You know what is right, want to live by those incredibily high standards and want the same for your loved ones.<P>The problem is it fries our brains when others are not playing by the same rules. I mean if someone pointed out something to us and convince us it was not "right" we would change whatever it was for the sake of our integrity...don't you think? We tend to me more driven by internal guidelines, in both of our cases based on our faith, than by external. Even if we could "get away" with something we would not because we would have to live with ourselves. I know I am harder on myself than anyone else could be.<P>Unfortunately this is not the world view. Look at the White House...deny, deny, deny. And on the other side of the aisle...when Newt's affair came out last month or so, I wanted to slap him too. How can people be so incogruent and show their face? And the whole idea character doesn't count in public life? It makes me want to breath into a bag. To me character is paramount (which includes recovering from mistakes with humility and grace), integrity is everything. OK enough of my speech. <P>However, we are also peace keepers and we are incredibly skilled at this. Although we feel legitimate anger and indignation, we have a hard time applying tough love in our relationships. It feels unnatural and unkind. Plus we stink at it...at least I do. Actually I'm pretty good at it with my kids, but I know I'm the boss and I'm accountable for them. Marriage is not the same kind of relationship as parent/child and that is the challenge.<P>How do we practice tough love in an intimate relationship with a partner that does not seem to share the same values and stay true to our vows and within God's plan for our marriage? <P>I'm not sure. OK...so I'm not a big help. But I did read an interesting chapter in another short book. It said that truth telling is more important than peace keeping and the well being of the other person is more important than the current comfort level in the relationship. In other words letting the other person continue in dishonesty and whatever wrong doing is not the best for that person, although confronting the problem will be anything but peaceful.<P>Your particular problem, is more complex because we want you to be safe and your H sounds volitile. And I don't think he is operating under the same value system so I'm not sure how effective this type of tough love can be. <P>The bottem line is if you want to stay married no matter what you have to decide whether or not it is safe to make waves and pretty much stuff some things or put patches on them. If you are willing to risk your marriage...meaning making it right or getting out, then you need to resolve your differences because look what its doing to you. But you need to be safe.<P>Praying for you<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

HI TNT, real quick cuz I have puter problems and am on a slow old 486! <BR>RX is 4 wks in Fiji.

Hi Folks -<P>With this stupid Webtv - I can't see the whole thread!!!!!!<P>Can you make a part 2 - FHL?<P>I hope that I haven't missed the whole thing and that you are done with it already!!! <P>I have to go to work soon but wanted to do this one tonight.......<P>Unless you're finished.<P>let me know somewhere cuz I can't see on this one.<P>Thanks!!!!!<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba

Sheeba...don't know what you're talking about. Please clarify and I will do it if possible.

Bookin' my flight now. Yes ma'am....

I ordered the book, but it is not here yet. Should have arrived last week. <BR>Can both of our teachers start on judgements? I think it would be very good...both for relationships and forum. <BR>If we see the judgemental parts clearer I believe it will bring the detachment nto better focus. <BR>TNT, your h is avoiding because he is afraid of what he will find if he looks to deep. I cannot blame him in a way. It is safe, not always cozy, but real safe known ground he is on. He is chauvinistic...and I am not sure how to deal with that effectively. My h tends that way if left to drift too long. Some of his family is not always real keen on me either! But they have learned that this is what they get from me!! If nothing else I am consistent. I think that the gentle approach works better for me in these areas, but I am not convinced that this underlying chauvinistic attitude will ever go away-so I try to keep it at bay. <BR>I guess you are not going to be able to make him grow up...ever. He needs to do it himself. I wonder if having the girls there will help that? If he expects them to start taking responsibility and being realible, then won't he have to be? <p>[This message has been edited by cl (edited September 21, 1999).]

step 5

The Student requested these, but everyone is welcome to revisit!<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

This is something I brought up in another post. Mainly that I don't think I could reconcile with my ex because I'd always feel like he'd be one up on me and I'd be doing all the giving to "make up" for what I did. Although Elixer called me "pathetic" for saying that, my H gave me many reasons to feel that way.<P>1. He said he'd be calling all the shots from now on (i.e. school, work, etc.)<P>2. He often commented on his "moral superiority" and had done so for a long time before the affair. The fact I'd been married before was one thing he'd hold up to me, among many other things.<P>I could go on. I did resist. A number of times early in our relationship, I told him I was pretty sure he'd made mistakes too (like being stoned throughout most of his college years, almost o.d.ing on mushrooms, hitting his girlfriend), but that I didn't see any point in reminding him about them and that his attitude was hurting me. The more I read, the more I'm convinced our marriage didn't have a snowball's chance in hell.<P>Nonplused said that I should demand to be trusted, if I trusted myself. Problem is, "demands" don't get you real far if divorce is not an option (or a weapon), and your spouse is willing to push it to the brink to have their own way.

I thought this one would really hit home with you. And your right, the cards were stacked against you on this one.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13