I stole the subject from cellophane but it's an old dusty thread <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Background
2 years ago my H got involved in an EA. He told me about it, I didn't discover it. He refused to attempt NC so I did Plan A and waited for it to die, which it did after 3 or 4 months. I suffered unimaginable pain during that time, as we all have.

We then went through the typical scenario where the WS just wants to forget everything and move on. I tried to heal and process as best I could by myself. I discovered MB and read a ton. I learned about ENs and LBs. I never learned why the A occurred, though, and that has always bothered me.

I remained paranoid and fretful until April 03, almost a year after the A had ended. I then asked for specific things to help ease my fears - rules on his email account, promise to tell me if she phones, things like that. I felt happy in my M for a few months.

Recently
I then became attracted to another man whom I'd been friends with since before the EA. I put strict boundaries in place but still our feelings for one another grew too strong so we have broken off our friendship and all contact. I told my H about this and I consider it an EA of about two weeks duration in early Oct 03.

So I'm back on MB and reading even more. We're seeing a MC who is helping us learn to communicate better. We are also reading "Fall in Love, Stay in Love" and I hope we will read a book on Infidelity and Recovery together. I'm assertive in all aspects of my life save relationship talks with my H and I'm working on that. My H is seeing an Anger Management counselor.

A Fog?
My quandry now is that I rarely feel love for my H any more.

I see him making efforts to love me and I appreciate his efforts in an intellectual way but frankly he is WAY off the mark meeting my ENs and he doesn't speak my love language. I don't *feel* his efforts. I have told him, repeatedly and long pre-dating my EA, what I need from him. I have given him examples of how I would like him to meet my ENs. I have thanked him and let him know when he was on target but he gets embarrassed and then irritated with me.

One area where I have seen some improvements is his LBs. There aren't as many angry outbursts as before. There are still a lot of DJs. I'm quick to notice all his LBs and I think I allow them to hurt me more than they should.

I think some of this must still be fog from my OM, simply because it fits the description: I don't feel his attempts to meet my ENs, I find it too easy to focus on his shortcomings. How will I know when I'm out of the fog and thinking clearly? The "shortcomings" I see in my H are true LBs, not stupid things. I fantasize just as much about being on my own, or with some unknown person as I fantasize about the OM. Also, if I pause to consider a future with OM I get really scared - I don't know him enough to know his problems and baggage. Frankly, the idea of a relationship with anyone (including H) right now scares me and exhausts me. So maybe no fog. Insights here appreciated!!!

Or time to step back and quit trying to save the world?
I am currently resentful that I'm the one driving everything - I'm reading the books, I'm the one to say "Honey, can we read in 'FIL,SIL' for about an hour tonight?" (twice he's said yes, twice he's said no), I'm the one who scheduled the MC (he's skipped once because it made him angry to go). Even his Anger Management class is because his manager at work suggested it, not because he thinks it will help us.

I have NO idea why his EA happened, and NO idea how I contributed to it. I don't know how to avoid that mistake in the future. I have done a lot of self examiniation and frankly can't come up with anything (not that I'm a saint, I just don't know). I need his participation in this. I can't do it alone (but if anyone has any ideas, throw them at me!). I know I can't make him buy into MB principles, I can't fix him, only myself. I feel stuck.

I do know how I got into my EA, and I'm working on addressing those issues. Some will require his effort, too, but I'm changing what I can change.

I find myself thinking that a separation might actually be good for us. Our interactions would be more like dating, so we'd be on better behavior. He wouldn't have as much opportunity to blast some angry DJ at me. I'd have a taste of life w/o him and hopefully realize what a good thing I've got going with him and miss him. Maybe he'd realize how serious I am about NEEDING to work on this M.

I'd appreciate comments.

<small>[ June 11, 2004, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: turtlehead ]</small>

^bump^

TH,

I know this is so hard. Possibly you are still in a fog, and probably withdrawal, and you know that you cannot and should not make any serious decisions right now....have patience until your withdrawal goes away and the fog lifts.

His angry outbursts are due from some deeply buried anger at something he has gone through (M,A, his past, his job, etc.) and he needs to discover and uncover what is bothering him before he can repair anything.

You state that you are doing all of the work, making the appointments, etc. (I have felt that way too and my H says we should just forgive and forget ... I can't seem to do that yet).

However, your H is going to the anger management sessions and he is going to the MC. So yes, you made the first steps, but don't forget that he is willing to go to these appointments so there is hope, yes? Also, he is willing to read books and get ideas so all is not lost, you are one of the lucky ones maybe?

Hang in there, there is hope yet!

Best regards to you!

truelove?,

Thank you for replying to my post. You affirm a lot of my thinking, and put a brighter spin on it for me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I had decided to work on myself and my M for at least six months before making any big decisions. I think that is a good plan and I will stick with it. After six months I'll have a better feel for how serious H is about making real changes, and I'll feel more confident that my dissatisfactions aren't the result of any residual fog on my own part.

You're right, too, about the fact that he IS going to MC, reading the book (albeit slowly!) with me, and attending anger management classes. It's not important how all this got started, what is important is that we participate in and benefit from these activities. Heck, 18 months ago I'd have given my right arm to have all this going for us. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

One thing I've learned about myself is that I'm not assertive enough where H is concerned - funny, because I am assertive in other aspects of my life (raising children, professionally). There are a lot of dynamics that come into play with him getting angry and me backing off (which feeds his anger), and we're looking at that. Complex and hard to change, but necessary for a true partnership. I'm learning to be brave and stand my ground with him.

I think a lot of our (my) current problems stem from accepting his word that "It's over, let's just move on." Yes, his EA is *definitely* over, but we have a lot of work to do before we move on. I'm no longer content to ignore the elephant under the rug. That's a big step for me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Thanks for helping me to see how much we *do* have going for us. It gets depressing sometimes, knowing how much energy has been put into improving the M and realizing that's just the tip of the iceberg!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have NO idea why his EA happened, and NO idea how I contributed to it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, the following may be one possibility. As much as I love the MB approach, and as much as it has helped us, I always had a nagging doubt about what REALLY caused my wife's affair, because while it was true that the OM met my wife's MIENs, I could think of times BEFORE she even met him when she rejected my attempts to meet her MIENs. So I started researching that puzzling aspect of her affair, and came to the following conclusion: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Unmet EN's do not cause affairs, they cause lousy marriages. If you read Harley thoroughly and carefully, he does not say unmet EN's cause affairs, either, though it is so common a misconception among his readers that I would say he should do some re-writing of his material. Reading SAA, it can be easy to conclude that unmet needs are the reason for affairs. Not so. Affairs are entirely the responsibility of those involved, and the reasons vary. In my wife's case, it was mostly about issues with her and our sexual history, with a few childhood issues thrown in for good measure.

Our MC worked w/ Bill Harley for 8 years, and one of his biggest dis-agreements w/ Bill was on this very issue, because according to him, in about 80% of men's affairs unmet EN's had very little to do with it. Yes, there were usually unmet EN's in their marriages, because no marriage is perfect. But, having the wife find out about and meet his most important EN's did not stop the affairs from re-kindling or stop the husband from having another. Harley is aware of this, which is why his plan for recovery is a lot more complicated than: 1.) Take the EN questionaire. 2.) Meet your husbands EN's. Our MC said that in his opinion, for that 80%, if the wife had been meeting the husband's top 5 EN's PERFECTLY, the husband still would have had the affair. If you want to learn more, read "The State of Affairs", by Todd Mulliken particularly the chapter on "The Double Life Man". The female version of this, the "Double Life Woman", is rare, but it fit my wife pretty well. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This may be why you have a hard time understanding things through the Harley "lense". Beyond that, "Wild at Heart" author John Eldrige says most mens' affairs are based on a desire for adventure - which is not on Harley's list of EN's. So, there are some additional issues involved besides unmet ENs. If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.

The second thing I have is scary, and I hope I'm wrong, but I have experienced the exact same kinds of feelings you are experiencing, and it was near the end of my wife's affair, after we had moved away from the OM, so she saw and communicated with him infrequently. I was consciously unaware that she was having an affair. She decided that she needed to work on our marriage, and she was (finally!) doing many things which I had asked her for years to do. I noticed, but they left me cold, even the ones that DID meet my MIENs. I just didn't FEEL loved, or feel the full effect of her actions. Once the affair was revealed, that weird disconnect between what I thought and felt stopped.

Now, there are two other less serious possible reasons for this "see effort, feel nothing" situation. Several on this board have observed that if your most inmportant EN is being ignored, the rest don't count. That matches my experience. During the time my wife was "putting in real effort" prior to DDay, she missed the mark a lot. I ordered SAA on DDay, and we took the EN questionnaire (got it from the web site) before SAA even arrived. So we started dmeeting each other's MIENS within a day or two of DDay, which could have contributed to the reconciliation of my thoughts and feelings. The other possibility is that it is just a characteristic of withdrawal - you are unreceptive to your spouse's efforts, even if you do notice them. I was sort of withdrawn before DDay. DDay shocked me out of it. sot his is an alternative explanation.

Hmmm... I just thought of a third possibility. Dishonesty puts an emotional barrier between spouses, that can cause that same kind of thought/feeling disconnect. Are you being honest with him about things, or avoiding conflict to avoid his anger? Did you tell him about the pain you were going through in Plan A? From the other side: Is he being honest with you - like...do you think it was it really a PA, for example? Is he dishonest by avoiding telling you things to "protect you" - is that why he didn't want to talk about the EA?

Oh, boy, the creative juices are flowing now - what about resentment? Do you live by the POJA? Or do you sacrifice for him? Pre-DDay, I definitely felt like my wife's efforts were insufficient to compensate me for all the efforts I was making and had made for our marriage. That kind of poisoned my feelings toward her. We are still working on that one, though it is mostly my issue, really. I am having to learn not to do too much for her. Weird. Fix your marriage by doing less. The secret is not withdrawing, but focusing your efforts on what is important, and dropping the other stuff.

<small>[ January 29, 2004, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

TH,

I AM SO VERY GLAD THAT I HAVE SHED A RAY OF HOPE ON YOUR RELATIONSHIP! THAT PUTS A SMILE ON MY FACE (AND HOPEFULLY ON YOURS!) AND YES, THE ROAD TO RECOVERY IS BOUND TO BE A LONG ONE, BUT MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, IT IS ALL WORTH IT! AT THE VERY LEAST, WE ARE ALL LEARNING LESSONS ABOUT EACH OTHER AND OURSEVLES, RIGHT? IN THE END, HOPEFULLY WE ARE ALL A BIT SMARTER AND KINDER TO ONE ANOTHER.

I AM GLAD THAT YOU HAVE GIVEN YOURSELF MORE TIME (6 MONTHS) BUT IT HAS BEEN MY EXPERIENCE THAT IT IS GOING TO TAKE A LIFTIME! I'VE READ POSTS OF TWO YEARS IN RECOVERY, AND FOR ME, MUCH, MUCH LONGER THAN THAT!

JOHN, TOUCHEE ON YOUR THOUGHTS...ONCE AN A IS OUT IN THE OPEN, OR EVEN SUSPECTED, WE GO THROUGH SO MANY EMOTIONS, WITHDRAWAL, DENIAL, ANGER, RESENTMENT, JEALOUSY, INSECURITY, THE LIST IS ENDLESS AND THE THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS REEL IN YOUR HEAD ENOUGH TO MAKE ONE DIZZY AND/OR INSANE. IT'S A ROUGH RIDE, AND THAT'S WHY IT'S SO IMPORTANT TO NOT MAKE ANY DECISIONS UNTIL YOU HAVE HAD A LOT OF TIME TO JUST CALM DOWN AND THAT MIGHT TAKE YEARS!

THEN WE HAVE TO START TRUSTING AND LOVING AGAIN, OOOH, BUT WHAT IF HE/SHE BREAKS MY HEART AGAIN?! THAT IS SCARY....SO THIS TAKES SO MUCH COURAGE AND PATIENCE AND LOTS AND LOTS OF PRAYERS (IF YOU PRAY, AND EVEN IF YOU'VE NEVER PRAYED BEFORE IN YOUR LIFE, IT'S A GREAT TIME TO START!)

GOOD LUCK TO YOU TOO JOHN!

Johnh39,

You gave me a lot to think about. I know you put a lot of time, effort, and consideration into your post and I appreciate that immensely. I have considered some of what you said already, and some had not occurred to me.

My H understands the love bank concept and the concept of ENs. He has sworn for the past 2 years that I meet his ENs. He tells me I meet them perfectly, I am a saint, things to that effect. He hasn't taken the questionnaire (I'm going to push for that when we get to that point in the book), so I more or less have to take his word for it. I have reviewed ENs repeatedly and in the past have been careful to try and meet all 10 to some extent regularly. I go on the assumption that the way he shows his love for me is the way that 'feels' like love to him, and I am placing more efforts on meeting the ENs that match how he shows his love to me or to which he reacts overtly and positively. I frankly think ENs are not the problem here. I appreciate your comments regarding men and ENs. It eases my anxiety about trusting him when he says his are met.

Recently though, I've become so tired and disillusioned that I'm no longer making a conscious effort to meet his ENs. I think I should refocus on that.

It is possible that he is communicating with her again, though unlikely. Theirs was a long distance EA and it was quite in the open. He'd get paged during dinner and excuse himself from the table to go IM her. He called long distance from our home phone, didn't bother with calling cards, etc. He shared portions of their conversations with me. So if he has resumed communications with her he's changed tactics and is working to cover it up. That said, he has changed our long distance service and I don't know how to access the bills online any more, and no paper copy comes to our house. He also reinstalled his PC and did not re-create the email rule (I've mentioned it to him twice). I get the impression that ex-OW is such a non-issue with him that he really doesn't see why these things are important to me. I'll visit both of these issues with him, because they *are* important to me. Of course, he could always use a calling card and hotmail but seeing how he interacts with me over this should say a lot.

My most important EN for the last 2 or 3 years is SF which hasn't been met since several months before his EA. He's well aware of that. We're getting to a catch-22 there, though, in that I'm beginning to feel so alienated from him I don't *want* him to fill that need. You know how we women are, we have to feel close first -- difficult critters <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> The sense of alienation could be fog/withdrawal from OM on my part but if it is it's a new development, 2+ months post NC, which would be kind of weird.

Dishonesty is almost certainly playing a big role in this, from both our sides. Despite "knowing" that it wouldn't bother me if ex-OW contacted him (he can't control her actions) and "knowing" that deceit absolutely tears the foundation out from under us, I believe he would cover up any contact. When we received a fruit basket at Christmas from a company we'd hired to do landscaping, he mentioned that when he first saw it, his heart sank because he thought it might be from her... and then said something about "How the hell would I get rid of *that*?" He's also said if she left a voice mail on our ans. machine he'd delete it rather than tell me, even though he "knows" I'd rather have the truth. There is also some dishonesty regarding things other than ex-OW. For example, he told me my friendship with OM worried him because he thought it would be hard on me to "be mean" to OM so that OM didn't get the wrong idea about the friendship. This was pre-EA. The way he phrased his concerns led me to believe he wasn't bothered by the friendship, that he didn't feel threatened or vulnerable, and that he trusted me to handle things well. As it turns out, he was feeling very frightened and vulnerable. We explored this and he says he will never admit to vulnerability because it could be used against him. I told him I'd rather know his true feelings so we can approach it as a team and find ways to ensure his emotional security. He still sees vulnerability as a weakness, though, and keeps that part of himself closely guarded. This is something that will never change (his words) and it inhibits intimacy and trust.

For my part, my dishonesty is in not always bringing up things that bother me for fear he'll get angry. Or I do bring them up, he gets angry, and I drop it. I'm learning to not live inside my head (MC's words) but to express my feelings. Also to not back down but be assertive (calm, cool, rational -- NOT agressive). For example, on Christmas Eve he was doing stockings about 3 a.m. and I went downstairs to help him. I startled him (you know how nervous you are doing stockings, thinking one of the kids will get up for some water...) and his reaction was "Dammit, turtlehead! Why couldn't you just stay in bed?" That was a big LB for me. I should have said something about it but all I did was apologize the next morning for having angered him.

I feel like a nag sometimes, but if I don't tell him when he hurts me then I'm allowing him to withdraw love units unwittingly; thus, I'm failing to protect and nurture our M.

Regarding resentment, yes I'm allowing myself to be resentful that I have been the one to initiate everything. He'd rather just let bygones be bygones and never talk about any of this stuff. I'm beginning to realize what a negative impact my resentment is having on us, though. I should instead be thankful that he IS participating in this recovery, and replace my resentment about what he's not doing with appreciation for what he is doing.

Many thanks again.

truelove?,

His EA was almost 2 years ago but we never properly addressed it. The "six months" I mentioned is at least six months post my EA. Six months is such a short time, in the scheme of things. It will take me that long just to begin to trust my reasoning abilities. At least that long!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> have reviewed ENs repeatedly and in the past have been careful to try and meet all 10 to some extent regularly. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Best to try to concentrate on the top 5, if you can identify them. If he won't tell you, you can usually find out by how he reacts. One idea Cerri has for filling out the ENQ is to describe how the perfect spouse would fulfill this need, rather than describe how your spouse "could do better". It can be a little less threatening. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He still sees vulnerability as a weakness, though, and keeps that part of himself closely guarded. This is something that will never change (his words) and it inhibits intimacy and trust. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In a big way. And you do the ssame thing.

If I could add in my two cents here, I have also believed that EN's were not the cause or had little to do with my WH A.Just in my case anyway.

We filled out the EN questionnaires and the only EN that I didn't seem to give enough of was affection,but to me,that isn't entirely true.I am a very lovey dovey type and we were always holding hands,kissing even in front of the kids(G-rated though) and I had this little quirk where I would jump up on him and wrap my legs around his waist,stuff like that.

SO,*everything else I got nearly a 5-6 on his test for me meeting his needs(unless he was lying again).But the real problem for me was he was away TOO much.He hasn't really dived down deep to find out why he did what he did so that may remain a mystery.My WH first explanation was very lame.It was "cosmic forces" and meant to be.BS! I'll never forget that statement as long as I live.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

O

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I find myself thinking that a separation might actually be good for us. Our interactions would be more like dating, so we'd be on better behavior. He wouldn't have as much opportunity to blast some angry DJ at me. I'd have a taste of life w/o him and hopefully realize what a good thing I've got going with him and miss him. Maybe he'd realize how serious I am about NEEDING to work on this M. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMHO, separation is a first step to divorce. As I've been told several times on MB, very few couples who separate ever get back together, unless perhaps that separation is within the same home (different floors, or different bedrooms). To this day, I wonder if I had sucked it up and remained living in the same home as my H if we wouldn't have made it work a long time ago.

I say simply tell him how serious you are about needing to work on this M.

Could it be that your desire to have a taste of life without him may be driving your desire for the separation? (And not your desire to save this marriage?) I sometimes think that's what made it easier for me to move out of our house. I am very good at living without my H, but do get lonely every now and again.

Again, I don't think separation is smart if you want to remain married.

Jen

Johnh39:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In a big way. And you do the ssame thing.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By not bringing up things that bother me?
By "living in my head" (brooding)?
By allowing his angry outbursts to intimidate me?

I think this is how I do the same thing but I am SO hungry for ways to improve my part in this I want to be crystal clear on what you were alluding to.


Octobergirl:

(and any others whose WS didn't want to examine the "whys" of the A) How do you deal with that? This is a HUGE stumbling block for me. Even though my H is working very hard on our M in the here and now he won't examine the A with me. He says there was nothing wrong in our M before the A, and that it only would have happened with this particular person (old HS girlfriend, lots of fond memories). I have a hard time believing that it is that simple. I *don't* believe it is that simple. I think he just doesn't want to bother with the introspection and hard work that come with examining the A. I can't make him want to pull it all out into the sunlight and examine it, but I fear I can't ever learn to feel secure with him if we don't do that.

How do those of you whose WS won't examine the A find a way to move forward and trust again?


And another question, since I've got a captive audience <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ... my H thinks everything is FINE in our M. He says the reason he's reading the book and going to MC is because I've told him I'm not happy and I've told him I'd like to do those things. He constantly says he doesn't know what's wrong and what I'm trying to fix. I've told him I feel us growing more distant, that I don't feel completely safe with him, that I don't trust him completely (and why). I've told him that I need us to go back and examine his A before I can put it to rest. I'm trying to be very honest with him. He still says he doesn't see what's wrong. Any ideas on how I can explain to him how our very nice surface M is plain and simply not the intimate M I want? I'm hoping that by the time we finish FIL,SIL the light will have dawned. I've got high hopes for this book being able to "speak" to him where I have failed.

Jen:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Could it be that your desire to have a taste of life without him may be driving your desire for the separation? (And not your desire to save this marriage?) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is an *excellent* question. It sounds goofy but I really don't know for sure. That's a lot of the reason I posted the question asking if a separation could help. All I know for sure is I'm dissatisfied, and I find myself growing ever more annoyed with H despite his visible attempts to make things better. What is wrong with me? I don't know if my love bank is so overdrawn that a life w/o him looks appealing, or if I really believe a separation would give us a chance to avoid negative interactions and focus on the positive ones, or if I'm still in my own fog. All I know is right now I'd prefer to be in an empty house. And that makes me sad. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I appreciate your point about separations rarely/never helping a M. Best to just hang in here and keep working on things. Eventually the scales will tip one way or the other, right?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> By not bringing up things that bother me? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YES!!!! </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> By "living in my head" (brooding)? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. If you are like me, you frequently brood about things that are not real. I have found that 95% of the time, when I am angry with my wife, when I calm down enough to talk about it, I find that I have mis-interpreted something. So all the time I spent angry at her was based on an incorrect interpretation of the meaning of her words or the reasons for her actions. This is not helpful. Fortunately, we are finally at a place where we can discuss things and I can get clarification. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> By allowing his angry outbursts to intimidate me? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, yes and no. That is what they are designed to do, after all. To a great extent, it is his responsibility to eliminate them. You can (should) tell him how they affect you each time they happen. How they make you feel.

Johnh39,

Thank you! I so appreciate your insights. Sometimes things that look so clear from outside are totally muddy when you're in the midst of them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you are like me, you frequently brood about things that are not real.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All right, fess up! Where are the hidden cameras and mics... and how long have you been spying on me?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

This is great. It's pretty much what I thought the MC was telling me; looks like the message is getting through. I feel like such a nag though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I'll let H in on this, that'd be a good start. Thanks again.

Well things were going pretty good for us about a month ago. See my post entitled We might really recover for details.

Now I'm right back to wishing I were out of the house. Why?

Had a fight two weeks ago about disciplining my D (his step-D) and he was really ugly. Told me to just shut up and not talk to him any more. Then sent me an email saying he was going to discipline her and if I couldn't handle that, just leave. Or if he disciplined her and I stepped in, he'd leave and immediately file for D.

I'd been working very hard on not living in my head, folks, but getting the door slammed on me like this just makes me wonder why do I even bother? I did tell him afterward that as my H, his job is to be honest, yes, but to keep my heart safe. When he threatens to leave he's not keeping it safe.

He already knows that I don't feel safe because we've never visited the "whys" of his EA. Why in the world would he threaten leaving me? This wasn't a moment of anger, either. This was a carefully worded email sent more than four hours later.

We're not reading the book (FIL, SIL) any more. Picked it up once in the last 2+ weeks. I've suggested it several times and H has excuses on why not to read it. I just quit suggesting it.

He's quit going to anger management sessions because he's gotten all the good he can from them (he's probably right) but he's not following through on what he learned there - specifically that he is a type A, super intelligent, and almost guaranteed adult ADD. A doctor visit and meds would almost certainly fix his angry outbursts but he won't make the appt. Instead he lives in a state of almost constant irritation with those around him.

I'm back to feeling like I'm doing ALL the work, he just wants to live a happy on the surface M, and ignore any problems.

It's been about five months since I broke off my friendship (all communication) with OM and I know with certainty this isn't any withdrawal on my part clouding my judgment or view of how things are between me and my H.

You know what I'd REALLY like? I'd like to be able to afford a place of my own to live, and to move out and hand him a Plan B letter. Love you tons, can't continue this. If you want me back then:

1. You get your anger under control
2. We read FIL, SIL and do all the questionnaires, cut down the LBs, do Radical Honesty and POJA.
3. We get to the bottom of your EA.


If we can't get those three things behind us, how are we ever going to talk about sex problems and settle differences in how finances are handled?

I just want OUT, and he's just waiting for me to get over my funk so we can be a happy couple again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

<small>[ June 11, 2004, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: turtlehead ]</small>

Got over my pity party and talked to my H in depth yesterday. Told him I'd been withdrawn and I'm sure he's noticed it (he had, and says he even asked what was wrong but I said "Nothing" - I *hate* when folks do that!).

I told him how badly his email hurt me and that I was emotionally curled up not wanting to risk coming out of my hidey-hole, because I didn't want to get verbally slapped down again.

He suggested maybe I'm focusing more on ways he hurts me than ways he pleases me.

He also told me OM sent him an email saying he (OM) had met someone else.

Well I did a lot of thinking yesterday and today and you know what? I HAVE been holding on to hurts, as a weird sick kind of justification of why I shouldn't get too close in case things don't work out. I've also been holding on to the "knowledge" that if things don't work out, OM is there.

I felt like total poop. I realized I've not been giving all of myself to my H. I've been cheating us of healing. I've been keeping a little distance so I can be "safe". I haven't been totally letting him into my heart and under my skin like a married couple should.

I told him all that today, and I cried because I was so ashamed and embarrassed by it, and so very, very, sorry for having held back from him and treated him poorly.

I told him that instead of focusing on "fixing the M" I'm going to focus on being the best W I can be for him - the kind of W he deserves, the kind I should have been all along. I admitted I know words are cheap, and I've fallen into a mode of thinking that will take some effort and time to break out of, but I intend to show through my actions that this is more than empty words, and more than a short term flash in the pan.

It's weird. On the one hand I feel SO embarrassed, and ashamed, and sorry for having cheated us. I hate to admit that I (surprisingly to me) felt some loss of OM. But I also have been stuck and now I feel such huge relief, like I'm free to move forward.

Got a few things rambling around inside my head and I thought getting them out in an organized fashion would help.

We're in a slump.

We haven't read FIL, SIL in forever... two months? We got to the EN questionnaire and are supposed to fill them out and review them before we continue reading. I've told H 2 or 3 times that I'd really appreciate it if he could do the questionnaire "this weekend" but so far he hasn't. This is a big deal to me because that book says so many things I've tried to tell H but for some reason he just doesn't "hear". I have high hopes that Harley's book, because it's addressed to an audience, might be less personal, therefore less threatening and easier to "hear".

We got a puppy 3 weeks ago and we're both short on sleep and irritable. Plus H is in the middle of a crunch project with a lot of pressure on him. It's easy for me to put off saying, "Let's get our sleeves rolled up again" because I don't feel comfortable adding *more* demands to him. I'm also scared of angering him, to be honest. I've already asked him 2 or 3 times, after all. BUT I'm becoming resentful so I need to tell him that. Otherwise I'm not doing my part to be honest and nurture our M.

I find myself getting angry w/him because I don't feel like he's putting the effort into this M that I'd like to see him put in. Then I remind myself that I can't change him, I can only change me. I also remind myself that he has made slow steady progress and I should focus on that.

Then I get confused about setting boundaries (what I need for recovery - for us to read FIL,SIL; for us to examine his A and the causes behind it), and wonder if I'm really setting boundaries or if I'm trying to dictate how he should be. I'll start a new thread about that, for general conversation.

And finally I still wonder if being away from him for a while might help me appreciate what I've got. I still find myself thinking that being on my own would be so attractive, mostly because I'm tired of all this M work. Actually, that's not true. I'm tired of waiting for him to realize we have work to do, and to get on board. Then I wonder if I'm trying to make him recover according to *my* rules instead of his own. Then I wonder if a separation might knock some sense into me and make me realize all I've got, because what if I decide I'm not getting what I want out of this M, and call it quits, and one day wake up and realize I've made a huge mistake?? And then I look at how nice my life really is, and think I should just suck it up and be thankful for what I have. Maybe this is as good as marriage ever gets. And then I think that "sucking it up" and ignoring the missing pieces is what got me so vulnerable to an EA. And then I wonder if I'm expecting my M to make me happy, rather than trying to heal myself so I can bring a complete turtlehead into the M (cart before the horse, so to speak).

My brain is going in circles.

Cellophane, I'm honored to have you rummage <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thank you for pointing out how good I have it. I'm sorry for your situation. I remember being there. It *does* get better, it really does.

I hear you on the burn-out thing. I kind of have a "sit back and rest" phobia. I was going to start a new thread but now I think I'll just toss it in here in my journal <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> and ask for some input...

--

I only ever start a thread when my brain is chasing its own tail and I can't get it to lie down and be quiet <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> This is long. When my brain chases itself I find it difficult to be succinct.

I read a lot about setting boundaries, and what I read makes sense. For example, in Plan B the BS goes dark until the WS agrees to certain criteria. The BS states what is required for them to feel safe and willing to commit to working on the M.

Now, in my own life, I didn't push recovery hard enough after my H's EA and I regret it. It led me to feel unsafe, insecure, and I chose to get involved with a friend in an EA of short duration - that, rather than bite the bullet and go back to my H and say "We have unfinished business." I realized what was happening, severed all communication with OM, and went to my H. It was a painful enough lesson that I don't care to repeat it (that's a gross understatement).

I told H back in November that I did't feel happy in our M. That I didn't feel safe. That I felt like we had unfinished business regarding his EA. I know that for myself I need us to examine his EA. I need to know why it happened and how H intends to keep our M safe in the future. I think reading FIL, SIL puts us in a good position to do that. We'll be better at meeting ENs, better at avoiding LBs, better able to negotiate and POJA.

H was and is happy as a clam, doesn't understand what the fuss is about. He's agreed to read FIL, SIL with me, and an affair recovery book, because I've told him how important it is to me. He personally doesn't see the purpose, but he'll do this to make me happy. I'm not sure this counts as POJA but it's what we've got.

I see us getting lazy. We've been "reading" for 5 or 6 months now and are only on page 71. I see us heading back to our "let it slide" ways and I am not willing to do that again. The cost, to me, is too great. H and I have both made huge improvements, and our M is better than most right now. It would be so easy to say "we're doing okay, why rock the boat?" but I know from experience how dangerous that is (for me, at least). My quandry now is how to I go to my new, much-improved H and say "I really REALLY need this!!!" without making a selfish demand? I *already* told him I really really need this. I used "I" statements. I explained how I feel. He agreed, because he's my H and he loves me and he wants me to feel safe in the M.

How do I let him know that working through all this is a requirement of my feeling safe in this M, without it coming out as a selfish demand? Harley says:

Demands carry a threat of punishment -- an if-you-refuse-me-you'll- regret-it kind of thing. In other words, you may dislike what I want, but if you don't do it, I'll see it it that you suffer even greater pain.

What I need to do is figure out how to say "Sweetheart, I want a GOOD marriage. Ours is comfortable right now, but it has rotten spots in the foundation that need to be cleaned up and fixed. I know, from experience, that unless those rotten spots are repaired, I won't feel safe and when things get tough I will have a hard time coming to you. That puts our M at risk. Rather than putting our M at risk, I prefer to repair it thoroughly or to get a D. I do not want a D, far from it! But it is better than being lazy and settling for a M that is less than what it could be."

I don't know - that's a fair stab at what I'd like to say, except I feel like it comes across as a selfish demand - "Recover MY way or I'll D you!"

Another thing that's bothering me is our MC (back when we were seeing one) told me that it was fine for me to have friends and a life outside the M. She said social situations, though necessary for me, are draining to H, and I should just go and have fun w/o him. I told her I was afraid of that, for two reasons:

1. H said one reason he turned to OW is that he felt like I didn't have enough time for him.
2. I fear becoming attracted to another person.

I voiced these fears to MC and she said that H owns #1, and asked me if I'm lacking in self control and self awareness that I can't have friends w/o becoming emotionally involved w/them? Well, from what I've seen here, *anyone* can become attracted to OP if they spend time doing things they enjoy with OP. I want my enjoyable things to be with my H. It's "insurance", if you will.

So I don't feel completely comfortable acknowledging that I could be attracted to an OP. I feel like this is admitting I lack self control and self awareness. Yet I *know* myself, and I *know* that if we don't do this work, I won't feel safe, and if I don't feel safe with H, I'll end up feeling safe with someone else.... I want to protect my M against that, and I don't want to live my life feeling unsafe in my M. I don't want to "settle". I think that's a recipe for disaster.

So... how do you set a boundary "I need X for Y to happen" without making a selfish demand "Do X or you won't get Y"?

This is a cut-and-paste from another thread. still seeking had asked some questions, and I responded. I thought I'd toss it into my journal, because it's a fair depiction of where my brain is these days. The bold is still seeking.
--
still seeking,

I so appreciate your interest!

I worry a little bit about what you are feeling and thinking. You have done such a good job with your advice, and you really have insight in to helping others.

You think so? I hope I do. Sometimes I feel a bit like a fraud, offering suggestions when I can't clean up things in my own life to my own satisfaction. I like people a lot, and have always leaned toward helping. I tutored in college, I do tech support now. I like touching people in some little way.

Are you getting what you need from these threads of yours?

Sometimes. When I don't, I think about what I posted and go back and reword it and post again, if the topic is still important to me. I have something weighing on my mind that I've been tossing around for a few days now, and will post on it soon. It's about whether or not my expectations for a M are realistic. I had a rough idea of that when I created this poll, and it seems you "heard" that. I was wondering where my M would go if it *doesn't* come to be what I hope it will be. I'm much more interested in building my M than H is. He thinks it's fine (has told me so).

I think this one is a really good one - after all, before we can know if we are getting what we need, we ought to examine our needs and see if they are realistic. Needs verses wants. What is a real need, and what can we live with as we continue to work on things?

Yes. And to make it more confusing, I think needs/wants are a grey area.

Some things are "must haves" - fidelity is one of my "must haves" for example.

Some things are on the other end of the scale - nice but certainly not necessary. For me I guess enjoying cooking might be something like this. Not even a want, really, but nice if it happens.

Then in between are a myriad of things which fit between wants and needs, and sometimes travel up and down the scale. Domestic support is typically a real need when children are young, for example, but perhaps only a want when newly married.

You said "what we can live with as we continue to work on things" - that was quite appropriate for me and where I am now in recovery. There are TONS of things I'd like to change. If I saw no progress at all I'd probably start working towards D. But when I do see progress, I think I can live with these things and keep plugging away.

What is your H willing to do? Will he talk to you about things? Does he try to meet your needs. Have the two of you filled out the surveys and learned what each others needs are?

Well, I can talk myself into being optimistic about this or pessimistic.

On the one hand, he has attended counseling with me and he attended anger management counseling and read up on anger management. His love busters dropped *considerably* for a few months but have crept back in during the last month, just a bit. I know he's made a big effort, and I hope it isn't a flash in the pan, that he strives to make this a permanent change. I am a "verbal" and "touching" person (Five Love Languages) so the LBs hit really hard. I need to let him know this.

He's also started reading Fall In Love, Stay In Love with me and now understands that it's not just a joke of mid-life that my libido is going ninety to nothing while his is practically dead. He understands that SF is a real need of mine and has offered to satisfy me when I ask, even if he's not in the mood. Sometimes he does, sometimes he pleads exhaustion or arthritis. But the ability to see SF as a real need is now there, and that's an improvement.

We read 50 or 60 pages and got to the EN questionnaire oh, 2 or 3 months ago. He's done his, I've done mine, and I bring up every weekend or every other weekend that I'd really like to go over the questions and get back into that book. I can't MAKE him want to do this. I can only tell him it's important to me and hope.

This is a big step, too. Before my EA he used to say he hated relationship talks. He still doesn't LIKE them, but now instead of saying "I hate them" he likens them to a dentist visit. Not his favorite thing to do but essential for the health of the M.

I don't think I'll go into the pessimistic view of things now, because I think I need to take the issues one at a time, decide if my expectations are real or not. Discover if each thing really is a big deal that needs to be addressed or if it's something I need to change within myself.

I don't mean to pry, but I would like to know where you feel you are now. Forgive me for worrying.

THANK YOU for worrying. It means so much.

Where I am right now is I feel I have learned SO MUCH in the last couple of years. About marriages, and especially about myself. I've learned the techniques here and I'm a zealot <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I've learned some of the ways I LB and I am getting better at catching myself and avoiding LBs (H helped me with that). I can feel myself get irritated with H and then withdraw from H and I understand the dynamics behind that. I understand when and why I'm at risk for allowing someone else (male) to get too close and how to properly deal with it.

In some ways I feel like I've "outgrown" my H, and I'd like him to come up to speed. I feel we have huge potential if he would only get on board. Then I wonder if I'm trying to force him to heal the way I've found is good for me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I've learned that I'm afraid to tell my H when things aren't going well, and why, and I'm working very hard on telling him anyway. This is my most difficult issue right now, because I want SO MUCH to change and I'm afraid of H's LBs. We don't have huge obstacles, we have a million tiny ones and sometimes I feel overwhelmed. Sometimes I wonder, too, if I'm making mountains out of molehills.

So I can look at our progress and all the good things H does for me and think we're okay and I'm expecting too much from my M.

Or I can look at how we handled things after his EA and how poorly that served us, and I think no! - we *have* to address all of this.

But it's all in my head right now and not out on the table where H can know about it and choose to do something (or not). I *told* you I had a hard time bringing up problems and dissatisfactions with H. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

I don't think just bringing it up out of the blue will serve me well, because I have tried in the past and H feels attacked. I made a list after my EA, of what I felt was missing and what could help protect our M. After his EA I, as a BS, would have *loved* to get a list like that. A blueprint of how to make my part in everything better. H, being unaware of MB principles, interpreted this as a "How Do I Hate Thee" list (his own words) and it was very painful for him.

I'm hoping to read Fall In Love, Stay In Love with H -- this will introduce him to ENs, LBs, Radical Honesty, POJA, all those things that I now feel are so essential to a marriage. We started months ago and stalled.

Then I hope to read a book on Affair Recovery with him, and address both of our EAs. We never addressed the cause of his and to be honest I don't think he wants to bother finding out why. He wants to say it's over, will never happen again, trust him. I tried that and it was a very lonely place with a huge elephant under the rug. Extremely uncomfortable and unsafe for me. I am NOT going to let it lie forever. It must be broght to light (for me to stay in this M).

I also find it curious that H hasn't asked *any* questions about my EA. It wasn't long lived, and we never exchanged "I love you" talk nor made plans for the future or any of that... when OM popped into my mind before H when I wanted to share something happy or amazing, or when I needed comforting -- I knew I was in over my head, and communication with OM ceased (though I'm ashamed to admit it was OM who suggested it first). So as As go it wasn't as "bad" as some we see here. But I'd still think H would want to know about it - how far it went, why it happened, do I miss him -- but he never asked. Odd.

There are some who would say I'm insane for not being totally happy in my M. H is intelligent, a good provider, keeps things fixed around the house, talks to me, cuddles with me, laughs with me, rubs my back. ALL of the tangibles are there.

What's missing is total honesty from H (I'll start another thread or post on that tomorrow), willingness to examine the As, an enthusiastic desire to gain M skills. There are some other issues to work through too like his LBs and the fact that he doesn't like my kids <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> -- but I think with the proper foundation we could work through those issues.

It's like we've got a fabulous surface M going, but I fear the foundation may be rotten. I'm not keen on staying in an M with a rotten foundation, no matter how rosy it is right now. How can you work through real issues with a rotten foundation? Maybe I'm being too demanding and expecting too much.

I'll get my thoughts together more and post on my expectations, and whether they're realistic, in a separate post. Am out of time at the moment.

Thank you for asking.

I have been away, but intend to post to you again when I am able. Do you care which thread I post to?
If you want to keep this thread a journal, (for you only,) I can do it on one of your other threads.
SS

<small>[ June 29, 2004, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>