Hi Turtlehead,
You have been absent for a few days, and I hope it is a vacation or something -
I thought I would comment a little more on your thoughts.
I said you did a good job of helping others and you responded with:
You think so? I hope I do. Sometimes I feel a bit like a fraud, offering suggestions when I can't clean up things in my own life to my own satisfaction. I like people a lot, and have always leaned toward helping. I tutored in college, I do tech support now. I like touching people in some little way.
No, I don't "think" so, I KNOW so. All of us can still improve our marriages, but that doesn't mean we can't help others. You do a good job, and I hope you are able to continue. (you are OK, aren't you?)
I have something weighing on my mind that I've been tossing around for a few days now, and will post on it soon. It's about whether or not my expectations for a M are realistic. I had a rough idea of that when I created this poll, and it seems you "heard" that. I was wondering where my M would go if it *doesn't* come to be what I hope it will be. I'm much more interested in building my M than H is. He thinks it's fine (has told me so).
What if I said that your expectations are realistic, and that his reaction is standard in many cases, but that usually it can be worked out if the two people care for each other. If he is a total jerk, then perhaps not, but you wouldn't have married him if that were the case. Often there does have to be some meeting of the minds - and I don't think we usually get ~ all ~ that we want, but I think you can get a lot closer than you are now. It will take time, and work, but I think you can get much of what you need over time.
And to make it more confusing, I think needs/wants are a grey area.
They are, but I have never seen anyone do as good a job of talking about it as Dr Harley does in HN,HN. Often we feel that we should be able to love someone even if they don't meet our needs (wants? you call it the way you see it) but the bottom line is that unless someone cares enough about us to want to make us happy by doing things for us that we like, we don't fee like spending time with them, or committing to them. That's where you are now - right?
Some things are "must haves" - fidelity is one of my "must haves" for example.
Some things are on the other end of the scale - nice but certainly not necessary. For me I guess enjoying cooking might be something like this. Not even a want, really, but nice if it happens.
Then in between are a myriad of things which fit between wants and needs, and sometimes travel up and down the scale. Domestic support is typically a real need when children are young, for example, but perhaps only a want when newly married.
I agree with what you are saying, and I have similar feelings.
We do need to know our spouse cares about us, and they often give love the way they like to get love, and miss our needs entirely. Is your H doing that, and is this part of the problem? I see you reference "Five love Languages" below, so I know you understand the concept.
You said "what we can live with as we continue to work on things" - that was quite appropriate for me and where I am now in recovery. There are TONS of things I'd like to change. If I saw no progress at all I'd probably start working towards D. But when I do see progress, I think I can live with these things and keep plugging away.
I have been reading on MB for 2 1/2 years. When I first came, I went back to read many old posts. I think the first 6 months, I read over 10,000 posts. I can tell you that the marriages that recover are a work in progress, not a finished product. Many come back and seek help again for a year or two, even though they claim recovery. I believe that we have a good marriage, but we have problems, and we have discussions, and we still shed tears.
What is your H willing to do? Will he talk to you about things? Does he try to meet your needs. Have the two of you filled out the surveys and learned what each others needs are?
Well, I can talk myself into being optimistic about this or pessimistic.
On the one hand, he has attended counseling with me and he attended anger management counseling and read up on anger management. His love busters dropped *considerably* for a few months but have crept back in during the last month, just a bit. I know he's made a big effort, and I hope it isn't a flash in the pan, that he strives to make this a permanent change. I am a "verbal" and "touching" person (Five Love Languages) so the LBs hit really hard. I need to let him know this.
He's also started reading Fall In Love, Stay In Love with me and now understands that it's not just a joke of mid-life that my libido is going ninety to nothing while his is practically dead. He understands that SF is a real need of mine and has offered to satisfy me when I ask, even if he's not in the mood. Sometimes he does, sometimes he pleads exhaustion or arthritis. But the ability to see SF as a real need is now there, and that's an improvement.
It really sounds like he has been helping, but you must feel things are stalling, or you wouldn't be so worried about it. SF is a good example of something that we usually try to find a happy medium with. Say that I want SF 3 times a day, and my W wants it once every other week - how do you get enthusiastic agreement about this from either party? (BTW, this is not what we really feel, just an example.) If you really care about someone, you can find a way to help them, and they find a way to help you. Sometimes you have to let your need go, to accommodate him, and sometimes he has to help you. Sometimes we think of it as win/loose, but can't it be win/win if we give and take and continue to love each other?
We read 50 or 60 pages and got to the EN questionnaire oh, 2 or 3 months ago. He's done his, I've done mine, and I bring up every weekend or every other weekend that I'd really like to go over the questions and get back into that book. I can't MAKE him want to do this. I can only tell him it's important to me and hope.
I packed a picnic for us, drove to a park, and we laid on a blanket and ate and talked. I told my W, "I need help. I need to do this to feel good about our marriage, please help me and talk to me about it." She did, and we learned a lot from it.
This is a big step, too. Before my EA he used to say he hated relationship talks. He still doesn't LIKE them, but now instead of saying "I hate them" he likens them to a dentist visit. Not his favorite thing to do but essential for the health of the M.
Take him somewhere - ask him point blank - "I need help with this, will you help me?"
I bet he will.
I don't think I'll go into the pessimistic view of things now, because I think I need to take the issues one at a time, decide if my expectations are real or not. Discover if each thing really is a big deal that needs to be addressed or if it's something I need to change within myself.
Please do me a personal favor, and wait about two years. Much of this takes more time than people realize. It doesn't feel like it ought to, but it does. Some say that "working on the marriage" shouldn't have to be, but it is like my dream house. The dream part comes over night, but the house part takes lots of work, and lots of time. If you will work on this for about two more years, you will have the answers to your questions with out addressing them directly. Take some time to enjoy life, plan time together, see where it goes.
Where I am right now is I feel I have learned SO MUCH in the last couple of years. About marriages, and especially about myself. I've learned the techniques here and I'm a zealot I've learned some of the ways I LB and I am getting better at catching myself and avoiding LBs (H helped me with that). I can feel myself get irritated with H and then withdraw from H and I understand the dynamics behind that. I understand when and why I'm at risk for allowing someone else (male) to get too close and how to properly deal with it.
In some ways I feel like I've "outgrown" my H, and I'd like him to come up to speed. I feel we have huge potential if he would only get on board. Then I wonder if I'm trying to force him to heal the way I've found is good for me
In some (many?) ways you HAVE outgrown your H, but consider this - That doesn't matter if you are willing to help him over time. I know a girl that plays the piano. She is really, really good. She sings too, but her H can't carry a tune, and doesn't play. She could say that he was holding her back, and that she was wasting her life staying with him. She could yearn for the company of someone that lived in the same musical world that she lives in. Instead of doing that, she realizes that she has talents in some areas, and he in others. They use each others strengths to make their marriage stronger, not their weaknesses to tear it down.
I've learned that I'm afraid to tell my H when things aren't going well, and why, and I'm working very hard on telling him anyway. This is my most difficult issue right now, because I want SO MUCH to change and I'm afraid of H's LBs. We don't have huge obstacles, we have a million tiny ones and sometimes I feel overwhelmed. Sometimes I wonder, too, if I'm making mountains out of molehills.
This is really good progress. If you are learning how to discuss things in a way that you can both live with, you are getting somewhere. He does need to do something about the LB's - my W learned to call me on them right when it happened. She would say" that is a big LB to me." and she would turn and walk away. What could I say - I could either continue to LB, or I could try to fix things. Fixing seems to work better if you want someone to love you.
So I can look at our progress and all the good things H does for me and think we're okay and I'm expecting too much from my M.
No, I don't think you expect too much at all, I think it may take more time than you have allotted. We men can be so slooooowwww.
Or I can look at how we handled things after his EA and how poorly that served us, and I think no! - we *have* to address all of this.
But it's all in my head right now and not out on the table where H can know about it and choose to do something (or not). I *told* you I had a hard time bringing up problems and dissatisfactions with H.
I think that is one of the things I have had a hard time with also. It is part of why I suggest two years. I think we can get you some help with this part.
I don't think just bringing it up out of the blue will serve me well, because I have tried in the past and H feels attacked. I made a list after my EA, of what I felt was missing and what could help protect our M. After his EA I, as a BS, would have *loved* to get a list like that. A blueprint of how to make my part in everything better. H, being unaware of MB principles, interpreted this as a "How Do I Hate Thee" list (his own words) and it was very painful for him.
If you haven't read "Men are from Mars, Women from Venus" by John Gray, now is the time. Women would love to get this list, men don't think the same way. I think part of your struggle is the differences between man and women and how they see the world. Some of what feels like indifference is just his different way of doing things. It takes time to learn all of this (did I say that already?)
I'm hoping to read Fall In Love, Stay In Love with H -- this will introduce him to ENs, LBs, Radical Honesty, POJA, all those things that I now feel are so essential to a marriage. We started months ago and stalled.
My W (one day on a date) said out of the blue "can't we have a date without a relationship talk, can't we just go out and have fun, without worrying about all this.
I play the marital piano, and she is tone deaf, but we get along fine if we work at it a little.
See, it has been 2 1/2 years for us - that's why I say about two more years for you.
Then I hope to read a book on Affair Recovery with him, and address both of our EAs. We never addressed the cause of his and to be honest I don't think he wants to bother finding out why. He wants to say it's over, will never happen again, trust him. I tried that and it was a very lonely place with a huge elephant under the rug. Extremely uncomfortable and unsafe for me. I am NOT going to let it lie forever. It must be brought to light (for me to stay in this M).
I agree that it should be discussed - and I think asking point blank would be a good way. You could do it on paper, lay out your feelings, and ask for what you need, and give it a suggested date.
"Which date would be best for you, the 22nd, the 24th, or the 30th?" "Lets get this over with, so we can move on to things that are more fun."
I also find it curious that H hasn't asked *any* questions about my EA. It wasn't long lived, and we never exchanged "I love you" talk nor made plans for the future or any of that... when OM popped into my mind before H when I wanted to share something happy or amazing, or when I needed comforting -- I knew I was in over my head, and communication with OM ceased (though I'm ashamed to admit it was OM who suggested it first). So as As go it wasn't as "bad" as some we see here. But I'd still think H would want to know about it - how far it went, why it happened, do I miss him -- but he never asked. Odd.
Mars / Venus.
This is a sign to you that he doesn't care, but he sees it as showing you how much he trusts you by not asking for details. He is trying to communicate his trust in this manner. This is really a good thing.
There are some who would say I'm insane for not being totally happy in my M. H is intelligent, a good provider, keeps things fixed around the house, talks to me, cuddles with me, laughs with me, rubs my back. ALL of the tangibles are there.
After an A, be it EA, or PA, there is a period of mistrust. You mistrust that he loves you, and you fear for the future. What if this doesn't work?
Please don't play the "what if" game. Please give this more time.
What's missing is total honesty from H (I'll start another thread or post on that tomorrow), willingness to examine the As, an enthusiastic desire to gain M skills. There are some other issues to work through too like his LBs and the fact that he doesn't like my kids -- but I think with the proper foundation we could work through those issues.
You see some of these things differently than he does. If you can gain the skills (and I think you can) then you can get both of you through this. This is your talent, not his talent. Don't let that hold you back from doing something.
It's like we've got a fabulous surface M going, but I fear the foundation may be rotten. I'm not keen on staying in an M with a rotten foundation, no matter how rosy it is right now. How can you work through real issues with a rotten foundation? Maybe I'm being too demanding and expecting too much.
How about we see where this goes. I still want to know how you are doing on the 4 rules. If you didn't see my link to that part of the site, I can do it again. Before you pour the foundation, you have to dig out a place for the footings.
Do you spend even close to 15 hours a week together - not counting watching TV, and other similar things where you don't interact.
Both of you need to do away with LB's . LB' s are the biggest killer of love, and if he is still doing them, it will prevent you from believing that your marriage can work. Much of your doubt is probably coming from his continued LBing.
I'll get my thoughts together more and post on my expectations, and whether they're realistic, in a separate post. Am out of time at the moment.
Thank you for asking.
You haven't posted for about a week. I do worry about how you are doing, you are too valuable to just let go. Please tell us how you are.
I will be gone for a few days, but will check back when I can.
SS
<small>[ July 08, 2004, 12:28 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>
