How do you tell if your spouse is just withdrawn from the M, or if there is an ongoing affair? It seems that the symptoms of both are similar.
ie: Not caring about the marriage, seeming emotionally withdrawn, etc.
My W shows these symptoms and more, and I'm trying to figure out how to get her interested in working on our R, but she seems absolutely stuck. I've been Plan A'ing for about 5 months now, and it doesn't seem to have affected her attitude much. I've asked if she's having or had an affair, and she's said no.
How do you tell whats going on. She's not interested in MC, and the few sessions we've had seemed counterproductive.

Thanks all,
- Hawkeye

Giving myself a bump

Hwkeye,

Withdrawn is a symptom of an affair. Therefore it is not unreasonable for you to ask her, again, "Are you having an affair?" and then tell her why you ask. The 'no' answer is an easy out for her.

I am speaking as a person who married under false pretenses. I entered into marriage while hiding a part of myself. For expediency's sake, I will not go into the contents of that hidden part--but I can say without reservation that that suppression, that withholding of that part was why I entered into an affair.

Others have discussed the "shadow side" on threads here and I believe that that is what is in play in your case.

Of course she is not interested in MC. She may be interested in keeping the status quo which allows her to get needs met and avoid confronting the marital problems.

I think you should just ask her again and see what she says. I know you might be afraid of the answer.

If my husband had done that, I would either be divorced by now or actively recovering. Because my husband and I each avoided conflict in our own way for so long (and each having entered the marriage under false pretenses), I now face the prospect of bringing the the truth to the surface. (I know he will not do it--I have to--just like when I had to have his dog euthanized when it was old and sick.) It is more likely to end the marriage than not, but it is better than letting "these crimes between us grow deeper".

I guess the thing that I see as alike about your situation and mine is the fact of the lurking, unfocused truth out there that needs to be faced. And someone has to make the first move.

<small>[ January 28, 2004, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: everlong ]</small>

Hawkeye,
I would advise that you mentally prepare for the worst. You need to decide now what you will do if you find an A. Also, if you do discover an A, try to aviod asking details about it. The details will haunt you.

It could be either way with her. Usually there is a still an emotional connection of some type before the A starts. If the S enters an A, the existing emotional connection will begin to fade and the emotional connection with the AP will increase. Eventually, there will be a total disconnect with you.

I know it sounds wrong, but you may need to start investigating. Try to have her account for her time. Check her cell phone bills for recurring numbers. If possible, check her email. See if she let you use her email from time to time. If there is an A, she will lie right to your face without blinking an eye just to keep it a secret. Asking her if there is someone else will do very little to find out. When you find somthing suspicious, ask her about it and see if her story makes sense. Ask her another time later and see if the story changes. The problem with lies is that they change in detail. The liar can't remember waht they said before. The truth will be consistant. You may even need to follow her when she goes out alone.

Finally, be cautious. If you are too direct, she will become more secretive. If she is up to somthing, she will eventually make a mistake. Just don't go on an all out witch hunt. While you are trying to win her back, focus on the changes you need to make in your life to be a better husband. There are tons of resources out there. Also, try to narrow down why she is emotionally disconnecting. Usually the is a need you have not met on a consistant basis over time.
Try to identify her needs and love language.

In the love of Christ,
Roman121

Hwkeye,

As one who is exhibiting the same behaviors as your wife, I can tell you that in my case, I am not having an affair. I will not lie that I spend time thinking about other men, sometimes for a long period of time, just thinking about how it would be with them (like a crush). They never know it. Those come and go. So it's possible your wife could feel the same way. She's shut down. Not accepting any deposits. The bank is closed for you. On a positive note, I just decided today to start marriage counseling - And I'm not real thrilled about it. I'm just trying to say, there may be a light at the end of the tunnel...Hopefully she is not taking things farther than that. I hope not and wish you well. Take care.

Imaccami,
I assume you have read the Harley info on how affiars start. I am not saying you are headed directly there, but it seems if you had the right opportunity, you might get caught up into one. Please don't take this as a judgement. Fantasies are extremely dangerous. Don't believe you are immune. I have not had one either, but when I find myself interested in someone I other than my W, I RUN the other way. The world tells us that looking is okay, it is not. There are no winners in an A.

In the love of Christ,
Roman121

I'll take that into consideration. I agree to a certain extent, however I haven't had an affair and am confident I would finish up the business of the marriage prior to moving on, if counseling doesn't fix things.

I think that Hwkeye should avoid trying to deal with what is unknow and work on making his wife happier so she will want to open up to him. I understand that many on this site have had the worst case scenario and therefore have advice on dealing with that.

Why expend all that energy when it could be totally unnecessary?

Just my thoughts. Perhaps naive. If so, sorry for that.

Thanks all for the replies,

<small>[ January 28, 2004, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: Hwkeye ]</small>

iMaccami,
I have tried for 5 months now to show her my love and make her happy, to get her to open up to me. Her response has been lukewarm, to outright hostile. She says she just wants to be left alone, and has been saying that for about four months.
The problem is not that she's just having fantasies, I think there was an EA/PA that happened over the summer. I've made it clear to her to the best of my abilities that i would like to work on our marriage, but she doesn't want to do that. Shes willing to stay in the marriage, but wants a separate life. She wants her own group of friends (male and female) that she does whatever she wants with, without me interfering in any way. She doesn't want me to go along when she goes out with this group of friends, and has been downright hostile to me when I did on going along.
She basically wants her own separate life, where we live together and share care of the kids, and of course I make all of the money in our family, which she spends without any complaint or control from me.

I had a C appointment today, and my C is convinced she's having an affair.

At some point, this has to end. I've been Plan A'ing for about 5 months, and I'm ready to throw in the towel if I don't see something more positive from her soon. We do have a date once a week, but at home, she doesn't want me to hug her, kiss her, have sex, etc. Nothing that good marriages should have. She's not into this marriage & hasn't been for some time.

I've done my best at identifying and meeting her needs, but she's refused to even do the EN questionare, read any books, etc. She has gone to the C twice reluctantly, but very little came out of it. I was neglectful for about three years as my career soared, and I wasn't meeting her EN's during that time, and ignored her pleas. I only heard her pleas as demands and nagging. It wasn't until recently that I realized what an idiot I'd been, and set about changing my ways.
She's still very resentful about the three years I wasn't meeting her needs adequately, and doesn't want to work through that resentment.
I am very committed to marriage & have gone the extra mile to show it.

I'm just running on empty now, and need things to move forward, one way or another. If she truely is in withdraw, maybe soon she'll come out of it. But it doesn't seem like it. How long, and how much effort does it take for a withdrawn spouse to come back to working on the M?

What I want is a marriage where I can love my wife, and show that love. I want to be able to hug and kiss her, give her backrubs, do nice things for her, buy her gifts, and be loved back. She doesn't want me to do any of those things.

Maybe it IS finally plan B time.

iMaccami, if your husband suddenly came to you & said "I want to work on our marriage, and to show you my love, and work together to make our marriage great". And it wasn't just words, he showed this through his actions for 4 months, what would you say to him?

- Hawkeye

<small>[ January 28, 2004, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: Hwkeye ]</small>

Of course, it is time to do a Plan B. She has no incentive to stop this arrangement when you are paying all the bills. IMO, she is treating you like a doormat. She tolerates you to make sure that you don't rock the boat and upset her social life. My advice is to hire a P.I. and find out what is going on and whether she is involved in an affair.

<small>[ January 28, 2004, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: yosh ]</small>

Hawkeye,
Extreme caution is necessary at this point. Before you can do a plan B, you must expose the A to the light of day. And yes, it sounds like an A. If you leave, and yes she wants you to leave so she doesn't have to feel any guilt, you run a huge risk of never recovering your M. Get counseling from Harley.

Once the A is exposed, you will need to do a plan A. You are doing it now, but the A is not exposed. If she is deep into it, nothing you do will penetrate. She has probably been in it long before you suspected somthing. You will not be able to make and deposits. Be mentally prepared for a continuation of the A after you find out. Don't ask for any details, they will haunt you. Just find out who and why.

READ SAA and DECIDE now what you will do when it becomes a reality. Affairs usually last two years and will wind down when discovered. It will take up to 6 months of NC for her and AP and no LB from you before you even have a chance to reach her. Any contact during the 6 months will cause set backs and it may even take longer.

I repeat, do not do plan B now and get a Harley coach to guide you. You must shed all your pride and selfishness if you want your M to survive. Also, remember that the average recovery will take two years for recovery. Recovery starts when BOTH of you are working on the M.

I am sorry for your trial, I have been there. If you believe in God and are a Christian, I suggest you start building a relationship with God. You will need His strength and love to get through this. Every day will seem endless and you will go through an emotional rollercoaster that is outside of your control. The good thing is that God is in control. You will become a better person from this and you will really see who you are and what kind of character you possess.

In the love of Christ,
Roman121

I agree with Roman, see what you can do about finding out about an A. It may be invaluable later to expose the A while she's still living at home so she can't later say (I met him after I left).

Are you confident you have given her a good Plan A? I think it's time for Plan B also. This independent behavior is for the birds. You deserve better treatment.

<small>[ January 29, 2004, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: Hwkeye ]</small>

Stillhere,
I have given a good plan A. I did a few LB's along the way, but even the Plan A isn't working.
I have enough info about the affair, the EA part anyway.

I do plan to expose it, if she doesn't agree to end it. If she doesn't end her relationship with him (friendship or whatever it is), I think I'll go to my W's boss at work(my W works w/ the OM), and tell her about what has been going on.

- Hawkeye

Hwkeye: Strangely, responding to you is probably like responding to my husband, somewhat...I don't think it matters if your wife had an affair physically or emotionally...It is that feeling of attraction for the other person that gets us through the days thinking positively that there are people out there who can treat us how we want to be treated and we can treat them how we want (in my case I see lot's of what you're seeking). The problem is the old wounds here. My husband, like you, realized last summer (that would make it 8 months now that he has been behaving very good) that he had been LB'ing me to death over the years. Of course I had to point it out to him...I gave him Dr. Harleys books. After that he said he was actually sorry (for him this is unbelieveable). So it would seem that at that point everything would be okay. Not so fast. I think in my mind I partially gave him the book to rub his nose in it and to say "I'm right and you're an *hole!" and then I would be justified in leaving him. But, like you, he keeps on maintaining a changed attitude and I'm unable to take that step. But I'm still angry about how many years I suffered his really crappy behavior. I'm having a hard time forgiving I guess. And it's also a bit scary to think he could go back to his old ways and I'll be older and less desireable than I am now (hideous thought). It's possible that she's just as stubborn as I am (sorry). I will say that if she continues to get more and more distant that you can hit her where it will hurt financially. I know that sadly, money is able to provide us with lot's of goodies that make us feel better. A lack of money could make her wake up and realize that she will be missing something she may take very much for granted at this time. Additionally, kids are the biggest motivation of all to make it work. If for one second I though my husband would fight for my kids to be with him and not me-I couldn't deal with that.

So, I hope this is all it is with her. My husband has brought me flowers and cards intermittently. He doesn't complain about no sex. He doesn't try to maul me, but just gives a small hug or kiss on occassion. The only thing he still does which drives me crazy is call me on my cell phone or at home asking me where I am and what am I doing-I think he's having a hard time giving that up....There's still much work ahead. We're going to try the Harley phone counseling starting Monday. We'll see where that goes.

I believe there is still a lot of potential for you to come shining through the clouds. Be persistent. What is it that she goes and does without you? This is what I would want to know. I can understand her wanting female friends to chat with (hopefully not misery loves company ones) - but male friends is kind of bizarre - male friends says to me, why can't my husband come along?

I hope that made some sense. Keep us posted. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I for one would create 2 plans. The first action plan would be 1. If I found out my wife was having an affair I would do these things. 2. If my wife was found to not be doing these things what would I do. I think the uncertainty and fear of the unknown and how to deal with that is an area that keeps us in our own fog. When you have plans laid out ie: she is having an affair but she wants out or she is not having an affair but she wants to.. create action plans for as many scenarios as possible so that you will always be in charge of any action or reaction she may have. Strenght comes from being the master of your own destiny not in following and changing others.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by iMaccami:
<strong> .
What is it that she goes and does without you? This is what I would want to know. I can understand her wanting female friends to chat with (hopefully not misery loves company ones) - but male friends is kind of bizarre - male friends says to me, why can't my husband come along?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, there is the source of the problem. She goes out with a group of male and female friends, and I'm not welcome along. They go to bars mostly, with the occasional party at someones house, or to a concert, ballgame, etc. She says she just can't relax if I'm along. Or that she doesn't want the kids home alone (they're 12 and 13). I'll get a babysitter, I say. She says, "They're too old for as babysitter".

And it was the lies about who she was with that really set me off. I'm kept in the dark about what goes on, who she's with, how long or how late she'll be out.
For example, three weeks ago, she went to the bar at 2 o'clock in the afternoon for a 'drink' with her girlfriend. Then she doesn't come home until 10 o'clock that night. No phone call, no nothing. She knows this bothers me, as she's done the same thing many times in the past.. "I'm going out, don't know when I'll be home". And a few times, it was even, "If I'll be home tonight".
It's like the REO Speedwagon song "She says she's coming home, but she won't say when".

I can't live with this behavior. If she's still mad at me for the years I neglected her, she should just say so, and say that she'll never want to work through it.
But I want honestly and fidelity, neither of which I've gotten consistently.

Thanks for your help and perspective. I really do value and appreciate it.

- Hawkeye

It certainly does seem like you're a doormat at this point. As a mother of two boys and a future mother-in-law (new hat) I would say throw that witch out. Now this is your chance to protect her and say all the nice things about her that make you want to keep her...

Hwkeye, just stumbled upon this post, could be very good advice in your situation: Creative way to tell OM's wife - posted by Rebuildinator. He shares advice given to him by Steve Harley which looks good. Take care.

IMac,
I don't see a link to the post and I don't know how to find it. Could you post it again?
Thanks,
- Hawkeye