Had a chat with my W today on the way to work...she asked if I knew OM's phone number and I said of course...I said I knew his address too. In case you haven't followed my story OM is her ex-bf. I knew she was seeing him on breaks from university during the day and talking to him on the phone and I let her know that...she initially denied it...but a few minutes later said that she is in touch with him but "can't see him any more because she doesn't have time"...so I said that hurts me because that means if she did have time she would see him. She also said the "but he's my best friend" line and I just said "fog-talk" to myself. Then she said that OM said he gets the feeling she's telling two different stories to me and OM. She also said it's not fair to keep doing this and OM said although he likes her he would cut it off completely if she just said so and she says she finds it hard to do that. I did a possible LB by saying that it's getting to the point where I may have to do it for her by contacting him. Then I recovered and smiled at her and kissed her goodbye when we switched trains....I'm in plan A and I know she has contact with him but sometimes just putting it out of my mind makes me feel better. I don't want to LB so when I mention the topic and ask her to stop all contact I feel I do it a bit too meekly and she just says the "best friend/well wisher" line...I have been seriously considering outing it to my in-laws who I know will be staunchly on my side but it will be the biggest LB EVER so I don't want to do that...what should I do...just continue with plan A? She lies so well and without any remorse that she's having her cake and eating it too...but I know she's lying when she does even though I may not know the details of what she did. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

BTW, we are getting on very well together and the "in love" feeling is there...I am doing my best to take care of her ENs and she is responding with loving and caring...if only this EA wasn't there I would be so very happy, but it's like a dagger that's stuck to my heart and I do forget about it because it's crusted in but sometimes it gets poked and the pain flares up.

need some help here guys and gals, any advice would be helpful..hurting inside... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

ironbeast,

Cool name....intimidating, but cool.

It almost seems like your wife is feeling you out a bit. I think the comment about you ending contact with her was good one. It might have brought reality in touch with her fantasy life. Talk to the inlaws, it will probably piss her off at first but if they were "best friends" then she wouldn't really mind you telling them would she?
If you eat cake like she is it tends to get messy anyway.
Your wife does seem to be the "fog" and her actions are selfish and self-serving. Remember her actions are about her not about you.

God Bless

Thanks d_rose...the name's something I use all my logins and has nothing to do with my M <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I just read another post with a gentleman with a very similar dilemma to mine. It seems everyone is saying that NC MUST HAPPEN for the marriage to work. My wife is strong about certain things and very weak-willed about others...I feel that she might need more than a slight nudge to actually do NC...

Things are going well with us so I sometimes don't mention the EA because it's painful for me to think of it let alone mouth words in a caring tone...when she asks "what are you thinking" I feel like bursting out "that you're cheating on me and you don't even care because you think you're getting away with it by lying and I'm helping you because I don't tell anyone"...I want to tell her parents but a) she will think I'm a wimp and it will be a MAJOR LB and b) her parents are both in frail health, especially her step-dad who she loves very much (he knew of the bf before and disapproved of him in the strongest possible manner) and they will take this hard...they will almost start hating their daughter for it and she will blame me for souring their relationship

However, I will tell her again that she has to send a NC letter to OM and see what she says
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by d_rose:
<strong> ironbeast,

Cool name....intimidating, but cool.

It almost seems like your wife is feeling you out a bit. I think the comment about you ending contact with her was good one. It might have brought reality in touch with her fantasy life. Talk to the inlaws, it will probably piss her off at first but if they were "best friends" then she wouldn't really mind you telling them would she?
If you eat cake like she is it tends to get messy anyway.
Your wife does seem to be the "fog" and her actions are selfish and self-serving. Remember her actions are about her not about you.

God Bless </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

i have leaned not to tell her anything but rather ask this way she is still in control. iam going through similar case as you are, can`t eat ,sleep , or hardly fuction but hang in there and don`t give up .

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hurting&scared:
<strong> i have leaned not to tell her anything but rather ask this way she is still in control. iam going through similar case as you are, can`t eat ,sleep , or hardly fuction but hang in there and don`t give up . </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks hurtin'
It had begun to affect my work for a while but I've recovered now. It's hard to put up a smiley face sometimes with the hurt inside. I know I'm not in control...we're newlyweds and are staying with my in-laws at the moment and my mom-in-law is on vacation and my dad-in-law will join her next week...I'm dreading this as this will give her more time and opportunity to go see OM...I told her I can't control her, I can only control myself...sometimes it's so hard to eat her lies with a straight face when I just know (gut instinct and sometimes proof) that she's lying...then be all happy and go on with our lives...I wish I could somehow show her reason.

Hello,

Did you say you are newlyweds and your wife is already cheating on you? She can't give up her ex boyfriend because he is her best friend? Why did she get married to you in the first place. I bet if the roles were reversed she would be seeking out an attorney. You are still on your honeymoon period and she is seeing someone else is just plain ridiculous, disrespectful and humiliating to you. She sounds very immature and too immature to be married.

Iron, I may be the gentleman you are referring to. My W has floundered in an EA for the last 2 years. It doesn't get easier. You would be wise to put all your energy into ending this sooner rather than later. It can wear you down like a cancer and in your young marriage there isn't a lot or room for error. I am older, have kids and lots of years invested so I tend to be more patient. As a newlywed this needs to be nipped in the bud or you won't have happy memories of the beginning of your life from which to draw from if you to get to my place. Might sound silly but my W has built up an awful lot of points for her to able to make the withdrawals she is making. Your W can't possibly have much of a balance if you're just starting. There is no doubt in my mind your situation is magnified because you are newlyweds. Do everything you can to end but just make sure you don't do one thing more than necessary. Tell parents, if that's not enough tell friends, and on and on until it's enough. DON'T ACCEPT THIS.

IB,

I may be the one in the similar situation. My in-laws would have a fit if they knew about my wife and the OM (Who's supposed to be just a friend now). I'm waiting to bring exposure to the A in my case. I think the risk/reward factor in my case is too great. I don't believe that she can continue to deny her wrong doing for much longer. Due to the fact that we are both Christians there is a conviction of sin every time she makes a wrong decision concerning the OM.

In addition, I believe that some of life's lessons are best learned through our own realization. Your wife must come to grips with the fact that first and foremost she's hurting herself. Secondly, she's hurting you. Stay in Plan A and be confident in who you are.

If you would like to talk more let me know.

Titleist

Its a bummer that seems never to go away. In my experience, if you are meeting her En's as you seem to be, just mention in one of your converstations with her "what if I had a girlfriend i call and talked with like you do". For some dumb reason this clicked with my W. She really cooled it after i told her that. I went on to mention one time "DO i have to get a girlfriend too, to show you how what you are doing to me feels".

Your w sounds alot like mine. They don't want feelings hurt. they can't stand up to people who are taking advantage of them. I get a feeling from your posts she really does love you and just needs to be reminded of just how painful her actions are. I think your w enjoys the jealously you are displaying.

Others are right when they advise you are very early in the marriage to be playing these games. If you cannot stop this, take more drastic measures before you decide to have kids, because it only gets rougher as you go. good luck.

I'm going to jump in on this thread because there are a few more specifics to work with here...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I did a possible LB by saying that it's getting to the point where I may have to do it for her by contacting him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No possible about it...never threaten your S...you either do something (calmly and after lengthy thought), or you don't...you don't threaten...you don't threaten to tell, you don't threaten to leave, you don't threaten to Plan B.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Then I recovered and smiled at her and kissed her goodbye when we switched trains </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Excellent!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm in plan A and I know she has contact with him but sometimes just putting it out of my mind makes me feel better. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yup...great survival technique...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't want to LB so when I mention the topic and ask her to stop all contact I feel I do it a bit too meekly and she just says the "best friend/well wisher" line... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, I get the feeling that you may be backing off too far on this one. It is a crucial part of Plan A that you share your feelings about the A honestly with the WS, without LBing. Take a look at that other thread I sent you to...gather the reasons why an EA is hurtful to you...practice saying it to her...

Anytime you start statements with "you"...no good. Start with "I"...how do you feel? (Have you seen cerri's list of feeling words?)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> However, I will tell her again that she has to send a NC letter to OM and see what she says
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is not about you telling her what to do...it is about you sharing information honestly..."honey, it is going to be really hard (impossible) to recover as long as contact with OM continues. Each time you are with him, I feel hurt and confused..."

Look at it another way...she needs to choose your M (you realize that right?). She could do what you "tell" her to do, and keep right on seeing him in even greater secrecy. The point to N/C is that the WS has made a choice. Then you can work together, use a strategy, to help her keep this commitment.

Like an alcoholic...no one, no matter how bad things are, can make the choice for them. However, once they've chosen, you can give them lots and lots of support to get them over the addiction.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> but I know she's lying when she does even though I may not know the details of what she did. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I've been doing a lot of reading about how to have a healthy, happy, long-lasting marriage...and the key is honesty...every marriage has conflict, but how you deal with it is what counts. If we can't be honest with each other, it destroys intimacy between us. And what on earth would we ever tell our kids? Be honest but only some of the time? I want to be honest with you, even when it hurts, even though it might be something that I think you don't want to hear."

That's off the top of my head of course but you get the idea...talk about honesty...why it is important to you...don't talk about her lying...why? It's a DJ.

Plus, if you frame things from your perspective, how you don't want to be dishonest...it's easier for her to actually hear what you are saying.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> sometimes it's so hard to eat her lies with a straight face when I just know (gut instinct and sometimes proof) that she's lying </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When you KNOW she's lied, you certainly do not EAT them. You are honest about how it makes you feel. And you do NOT ask her anything. You tell her what you know and how it makes you feel.

Do you see the difference? Discussing issues rather than telling her. Tell her only what you FEEL and what you KNOW (ie. only FACTS...lying is not a fact, it is a judgement, whereas exposing the lie by stating it openly between you is a fact...that is honest.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> everyone is saying that NC MUST HAPPEN for the marriage to work. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely! The problem is that an EA is harder in some ways to handle because often there actually is no guilt, no feeling of wrong-doing on the part of the WS. And in this case, at this point, you want to expose for the wrong reasons.

Do a fantastic Plan A for a little bit first...get your head around the right reasons for exposure.

For example, what are you going to say to her parents? That will also be key. Is all your righteous indignation going to spew forth? (Careful...it well might! You have a lot to feel righteous about...but as I love to ask people, do you want to be right, or married? You should always "out" because you want to be married, not because you want to be right.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> when she asks "what are you thinking" I feel like bursting out "that you're (YOU) cheating (DJ) on me and you (YOU) don't even care (DJ--assumption) because you (YOU) think (assumption) you're (YOU) getting away with it (DJ) by lying (DJ) and I'm helping you because I don't tell anyone"... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So??? Want to do the exercise with me? I'm her, I just asked "what are you thinking"...what is your response? Tell me what you know and how you feel.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> her parents are both in frail health, especially her step-dad who she loves very much (he knew of the bf before and disapproved of him in the strongest possible manner) and they will take this hard...they will almost start hating their daughter for it and she will blame me for souring their relationship </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">a) this is hard...you could really damage their health further depending on what kind of illusions they harbour about their daughter, your M, their love for you...tread carefully.
b) I'm sure titleist recognizes his own situation very well here! Her parents could really have an impact, but what will the negative outcome be? Titleist has asked cerri to advise on his tricky situation...hopefully if she has time to answer soon you too will see what an expert has to counsel. For all I know, she may say fullsteam ahead and forget the torpedoes! We'll see...

Hope this helps...awed

I just found out (through a bit of electronic surveillance, bugging her mobile) that she is not at her hospital/university where she is supposed to be but at or near the OM's place. I have proof because I printed out the detailed map and date/time (today/now). I will show her today when we meet up to go home after my work.

So??? What are you going to say? Let's try it out here first okay?

Also: is talking on the way home the best time to do so? Never forget, there's a time and place for everything. Better yet, there's a WRONG time and WRONG place for these kinds of discussions.

Also: did she commit to N/C yet? Did she tell you she wouldn't see him? did you specifically ask her are you going to see OM today and she said no?

Careful, tread lightly. You are at a critical juncture here...handle it well, and you are well prepared for outing the A, and for Plan B too. Handle it poorly and it will just prolong YOUR pain.

Okay? Want some help? Are you calm? Your note sounded terse. If I seem concerned...I am! awed

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by awed18:
<strong> So??? What are you going to say? Let's try it out here first okay? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm going to say "baby, I know you've been to see OM today and I want you to first know that I love you, nothing changes that"..."but this hurts me so much, I had trouble working after I found out, felt like I was stabbed in the heart" "I know you care for me and I want a beautiful future for us but this just holds us back"

To which she'l say, "why don't you leave me...if you did this to me I wouldn't stay"

To which I will have no answer because I will be too busy choking down tears.

ahhh buddy...I know how hard it is... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

can you listen? can you hear someone who's been there and lived to tell the tale? can you do this?

1. take deep breaths...keep on breathing...slowly in and out...keep on until you stop shaking, until your heart rate slows, until the tears subside.

2. go outside...go for a walk...deliberately look around you...FORCE yourself to notice things...trees, buildings, houses, flashing lights, cars...focus on external THINGS (not people, they hurt)

spend 1/2 hour doing this...focus your mind elsewhere

can you do this...are you with me yet????

3. come back in (you can't work anyway, can you?) and write it all out to her...write it ALL...everything you'd like to say, no matter how mean, how hurtful...get it OUT of you.

4. then go back to step 1.

5. can you work on your real work now?

6. here's the biggie...can you hug that new information close to you, hug it like a teddy bear, keep it inside your shirt...so that you know it is there...you know you know...

7. then not say anything to her about it? Think if this was your last time to be with her. Look at her and think about how beautiful she is, how much you love her, how wonderful X time is with her.

8. talk to her about trivia, point out crazy people on the train, stupid ads, goofy behaviour...have some fun.

I'm not crazy you know! If you've done steps 1-4 you'd be surprised how much tension it's relieved from you.

9. what are you doing tomorrow night? How about Friday night? What about the weekend? Is there a time ahead when you think the two of you will have quiet time together?

THAT's the time to talk to her. Let all your emotions calm down for at least 24 hours. Can you do this???

I know everything inside you is screaming at you: do it NOW!!!

But you know what?

It ain't gonna help you one little bit. Likely hurt you actually. Those emotions...they are killer. Until you get them under control, they are going to lead you down the wrong path...guaranteed.

And I'll tell you another thing...you keep on hoping for the magic...that it will suddenly go blink in her head. Likely it won't though. So what's another couple of days going to do...especially if this little little delay might HELP you in your goal of reconciliation. After all, you've known she's still seeing him...nothing has really changed.

Except you are getting tired of trying...right?

Maybe, just maybe...if you calm down first. If you practice what you are going to say. If you practice how you will respond to what SHE says in return...maybe just maybe...the talk will get through to her!

Or maybe the talk will lead to a conversation with her parents. Because your HEAD will be in the right place at that point.

Wow! I wish I could call and talk to you instead...I've been EXACTLY where you are now. Only calm will help. Calm, centredness inside you.

You want her to stop hurting you...I want her to stop hurting you too...the difference is that I am not emotionally involved in your situation...but I can sure tell you what works and what doesn't from hard-won personal experience.

I tried it your way for years...it ain't going to work. Try it the MB way...the full MB way. Practice, practice, practice...then gentle but firm, respectful discussion of what you know and what you feel.

Outing at that point, after that point, will be the right thing to do. Okay?

Thanks so much awed...I'm printing out this page to read and re-read. I'm going to follow your steps...I called a family friend of ours who knows her well and knows about the exBF but not the EA, I will tell her about it...just need to verbalize it to someone. I know she will not spread it around but will talk to my W in a nice way and I know my wife likes and respects her. I'll talk to her tomorrow.

I called a family friend of ours who knows her well and knows about the exBF but not the EA, I will tell her about it
No, you won't call her. You will find a male family friend to confide in and tell about it.

Please don't give me a line about, "she's friends with my wife too."

...just need to verbalize it to someone
That is great. Make sure it is a MALE friend.

<small>[ February 04, 2004, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong> I called a family friend of ours who knows her well and knows about the exBF but not the EA, I will tell her about it
No, you won't call her. You will find a male family friend to confide in and tell about it.

Please don't give me a line about, "she's friends with my wife too."

...just need to verbalize it to someone
That is great. Make sure it is a MALE friend. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She's much older than my wife and has been married for a while...I know she would disapprove of this...this is someone who is a neutral in this, I wouldn't go to any of her friends because I know what they're like, they don't even understand what being faithful means let alone being married.