She's much older than my wife and has been married for a while
And your point is?

Tell her about it? Yes.
Discuss it? No.
She is NOT someone for you to lean on and talk about your marriage problems with.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong> She's much older than my wife and has been married for a while
And your point is?

Tell her about it? Yes.
Discuss it? No.
She is NOT someone for you to lean on and talk about your marriage problems with. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I take your point Chris...I'll talk to a male family friend, I do have someone in mind. I know I can't lean on anyone, male or female, in this. It's ultimately my problem and mine only, so I don't look for help of that sort.

You CAN get someone to lean on and talk about this. It's okay and good to do this. Find someone you won't bore to tears and will simply listen (not tell you to dump her, you deserve better, etc.)
As long as it's a guy.

People confide in female friends and it usually ends up bad, EVEN when they KNOW nothing will happen, the other person is HAPPILY married, etc.

I'am getting a bad feeling here. Don't let her know what you are doing. She will resent that you don't trust her and she will get deeper into the A. Be careful. Perhaps monitor her whereabouts for a few months and everytime you see her where she is not supposted to be, ask questions and try to catch her in the lie, or her honest answer.

I think she is going to look at this as you being a controlling A hole. It looks like a lose lose situation. Like i said before ," work on those EN's" thats all you can do.

I'am getting a bad feeling here. Don't let her know what you are doing. She will resent that you don't trust her and she will get deeper into the A. Be careful. Perhaps monitor her whereabouts for a few months and everytime you see her where she is not supposted to be, ask questions and try to catch her in the lie, or her honest answer.

I think she is going to look at this as you being a controlling A hole. It looks like a lose lose situation. Like i said before ," work on those EN's" thats all you can do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by wokeup:
<strong> I'am getting a bad feeling here. Don't let her know what you are doing. She will resent that you don't trust her and she will get deeper into the A. Be careful. Perhaps monitor her whereabouts for a few months and everytime you see her where she is not supposted to be, ask questions and try to catch her in the lie, or her honest answer.

I think she is going to look at this as you being a controlling A hole. It looks like a lose lose situation. Like i said before ," work on those EN's" thats all you can do. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know, I'm not going to let her know any of this...which going against my grain but I can't let her in that I will talk to someone about it...I've already told a female friend that I had something to talk about but I'll just call and say it's okay, I've resolved it or something.

Whoa whoa whoa...

I'm NOT suggesting that NOTHING be said...just that ironbeast slow down, settle down, calm down first before talking with his W about his FEELINGS, how her A is making him feel.

This is a critical part of Plan A...honesty about how you FEEL but without making judgements on the WS. It's a hard balance which is why BS emotions can get in the way.

I believe that Chris is advising ironbeast not to share his feelings with another woman since that often leads to the situation of...OW!

But it is certainly within ironbeast's "rights" to find a sympathetic, discreet friend to talk to. Everyone needs to have a friend, not just the great support available here. If this causes a problem for WS...tough.

Keep meeting needs of course, but you also need to set firm boundaries as part of recovery. One of those boundaries here (the only one I've heard mentioned so far) is that the EA must end for the M to recover and move forward. I would hazard a guess though that another boundary you should consider is that of honesty. Personally, I do not think that you can have a healthy M without it.

So in this case, set aside whether or not her R with OM is inappropriate, she is lying to you about it. Unacceptable. Odd as it seems, it would be more acceptable if she discussed it with you. If one S discussed an attraction to someone else before starting an A, then it could be dealt with honestly (ie. the feelings, what to do about them, etc.).

BTW: ironbeast -- one good tip my counsellor suggested that I forgot to pass along to you. If your W resists the characterization of her "friendship" as an "affair", then don't use that term. It is an inappropriate friendship with another man, her old boyfriend (likely someone she was sexually intimate with in the past?). And that other thread I sent you to lists all the good solid reasons that you can use to explain to her exactly how it harms your M.

She may not accept these reasons, but at least then you won't get caught arguing about the very first word (ie. "affair") and you'll get into the meat of the matter (ie. why would she continue to have a relationship that hurts her H? And why does she lie to her H about the relationship?).

It's all about communication between you from here on in. How you communicate clearly with her.

Whether or not she listens is another matter altogether, but that's where all of your love bank deposits come in handy...you'd be surprised how much this helps, even if it doesn't appear to be on the surface.

Hope that clarifies things a bit better...awed

<small>[ February 05, 2004, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong> You CAN get someone to lean on and talk about this. It's okay and good to do this. Find someone you won't bore to tears and will simply listen (not tell you to dump her, you deserve better, etc.)
As long as it's a guy.

People confide in female friends and it usually ends up bad, EVEN when they KNOW nothing will happen, the other person is HAPPILY married, etc. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OH, is that what you meant Chris? Me having an OW? No, mate, that's not me...that would be tit for tat, childish, but I understand that I may be vulnerable at this point and not know about it. I hadn't even thought of it until awed explained. Regardless I'll go to a male family friend. I won't say the word "affair", in fact I've never used it with W. I'll talk to her this weekend, keeping in mind awed's pointers. thanks guys!

OH, is that what you meant Chris?
Yes.

Me having an OW? No, mate, that's not me...that would be tit for tat, childish,
I'm not suggesting you would have an ow. But most people don't intend to have an affair & get into a situation and things happen. Most ws end up wayward not because they were looking to have an affair. It usually starts out as "friendship".

but I understand that I may be vulnerable at this point and not know about it.
If you do not get into situations which can lead to something, you won't have to worry about getting in too deep. (and then try to "justify" why it's not a problem)

she did it again yesterday...we're lying in bed after some great X and she goes she's thinking about being single again, dating other ppl, going out at night (she hates crowds and clubbing but she KNOWS I love clubbing and haven't been going just because she doesn't like it and that doesn't bother me)...then she said something about being a single mother being cool (??!! My my the fog's thick tonight!)...I'm all calm and collected and tell her we can go out together and have fun and I love her and that things aren't right at the moment so she may change her mind quickly...I also say that she shouldn't ask me to leave her because I love her so much I will not do that (sometimes it feels like she's testing me)...then she moves into what our kids will be like (an about-turn in 5 minutes...). Tell you what it felt like inside...like someone stabbed me then kissed me passionately.

you know what that is? fantasy...reality...fantasy...reality....

It hurts you (I know how it feels <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ) but try to extend a little outward...what must it feel like to her? Have you ever day-dreamed? They're nice to have...but if you try to extend them, they feel thin...somewhere inside you, you know they are just a fantasy...not good....so you think a little harder...push reality away harder...now even deeper into fantasy...reality hurts more now...so deeper yet into fantasy...

well, I don't know if I'm getting my point across but basically, it is a place that just keeps on getting crazier and crazier for the WS...they get more and more disconnected from life, from themselves...

hence wacko behaviour, alien behaviour, totally and absolutely contradictory statements fly out of their mouths WITHOUT them even realizing it. And if you ask them...they'll get a puzzled look on their faces and say: what???

maybe this will help you to find the patience with your W...or even to feel sorry for her, for living in this confusion...

why do I suggest this? Because if your W was suffering from a high fever and lashing out (heck...perhaps guys can tell you some of the things their W have screamed at them during labour...some not very NICE things from what I've heard! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )...you'd forgive her because "she knew not what she said"...

so many WS come out of the fog into thick shame and guilt...they too cannot believe what they said (and did)...

my point is it hurts less if you don't take it so personally...it starts you on the healing path if you don't...it helps you to forgive (not forget)...reconciliation is tough enough even if you have forgiven...rebuilding of trust is HUGE...

perhaps not the message you were expecting to see from me but given a lot of other discussions here at MB lately, I feel this is perhaps the best piece of advice I can give...try not to take these things to heart...

try to listen to the good and throw away the bad...you'll remember enough believe me...you don't need to commit the rest to heart....

you love this woman, so set it aside...

that said, you need a plan to confront her with what you know, a plan for exposure, a plan for Plan B...planning helps you to feel calm, you are in control, you are following a strategy...

titleist is going through much the same as you (PA but mostly EA)...he's calmed down himself so much and is tracking small signs of progress...take solace in others...you are part of a big community because it IS so common...the words are the same, the actions are the same...don't take it personally...follow the plan...your W may NOT come out of it...THAT is not within your power to change...life deals all of us blows that we would rather not have...thank you VERY much!

To paraphrase Michelle W-D (Divorce busting series): It's not fair! So get over it!

Tough love but actually a great survival technique too. Whenever I felt sorry for myself, I'd say it out loud. It worked simply to remind me that I could either wallow, or focus outward onto others or other things to distract me...

as always ironbeast...hope this helps...I feel deeply for what you are going through and hope to help you navigate the path of best M recovery chances AND least pain for you (through self-empowering techniques...they only work slowly over time)...if I had a suggestion that would take ALL the pain away...then I'd be RICH right now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Better than the lottery hmmmm?

hang in there...awed

<small>[ February 06, 2004, 06:25 AM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

Awed, man, you are a Godsend...thanks so much...the rollercoaster's stopped for now, she's being extra affectionate today...calling me at work and telling me she misses me and wants me to come home <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I know what's waiting around the corner though.

I agree, I've told myself that breaking down over this is doing me no favours at all, I need to be strong and have a clear mind.

<small>[ February 06, 2004, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: ironbeast ]</small>

Wow, what a bunch of fog talk.

I've read some of Orchid...she speaks fog very well. She says when they babble at you, babble back, basically agree with them, let their words ride over you, go with the flow, let me see if I can do it justice...


If she said

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> she's thinking about being single again</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And you say, "That would be pretty interesting, I wonder what that would be like?"

And she says

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> she's thinking about dating other ppl</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And you say "I've thought about that too."

And she says

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> she's thinking going out at night </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And you say "I'd love to go out again, maybe I'll see you out there. Wouldn't that be a kick if we saw each other out clubbing?"

And she says

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> being a single mother being cool </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You say "I'd bet it'd have it's good and bad sides. I wonder if it's any different being a single Dad."

Answer back as though you are talking to a good friend that you don't have so much invested in. She is in a fantasy. Help her see she is helping to make her fantasy come real...but is it truly what she wants?

Wow, what a trip, If she is speaking like this now, It makes me wonder what will happen when her Hormones start to actup in midlife? This sounds like a women in midlife crisis. Being in midlife myself with 3 kids, I can tell you its no picnic. And I started out with such a wonderful relationship for the first ten years its scarey.

You have much work ahead of you. You need to figure out were she's going. Better now then ten years from now with 2 kids in tow. I hate to say this but, she looks like she was not ready to get married.

Good luck Guy, and God bless... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by wokeup:
<strong> Wow, what a trip, If she is speaking like this now, It makes me wonder what will happen when her Hormones start to actup in midlife? This sounds like a women in midlife crisis. Being in midlife myself with 3 kids, I can tell you its no picnic. And I started out with such a wonderful relationship for the first ten years its scarey.

You have much work ahead of you. You need to figure out were she's going. Better now then ten years from now with 2 kids in tow. I hate to say this but, she looks like she was not ready to get married.

Good luck Guy, and God bless... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, let's just say she was all about being a homemaker and having kids in the first couple of months of our marriage before she brought in the OM (ex-bf) into it...and now it's all about doing this stuff? She doesn't even LIKE clubbing, loves chilling with family and doing family things...has never been on dates, always had a boyfriend (her new favourite show is Sex and the City)...she is VERY immature and when she gets an idea (very fickle) it sticks to her head for a while and then POOF it's gone and she's in her next craze, which normally I find cute but this EA is making it worse.

I was going to ask her to stop seeing the OM again but this weekend went so well I didn't have the heart/guts to