Plan A your spouse and plan B the WS.......

What are your thoughts about the above statement? It seems so many BS out there are tryng soooo hard to plan A, they are plan Aing the WRONG person.

Did I? Yes. What did that buy me? Several false recoveries (about 9), extended grief, debt, stress, a few more wrinkles and gray hair <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

As I watch this board I see many BS doing the same thing. To the one disrepsecting them the most, they plan A the hardest. This is futile.

Am I saying don't plan A? Nope, I am saying to use your plan A skills for the spouse (when you see them acting as your spouse). When they are acting like the Ws, then plan B.

No disrespect with this method. The Spouse will appreciate your changes. The WS will use those changes against you and for the A's benefit.

In plan B, the spouse will understand your stance similar to dealing with a wayward child or sibling. The WS is tooo foggy to know the benefit is for the BS not the WS and will grumble anyway.

In other words, the WS will not appreciate either plan. These plans are designed to help the BS survive.

Of course, this is just my opinion. I am stating this in an effort to help some see the difference of when to do plan A vs plan B.

Can a BS speak to a WS in plan B? Not other than the stipulated items (ie: children, money, etc.) Can the BS speak to the spouse in plan B? Yes. Why? At the time of communication, the BS can let the spouse know they are speaking to their spouse and not the WS.

This may be a totally different course from the Harley plan. I know that when I told the WS, that I wanted to speak to my H, the WS cried. He said he wanted to see H also. For us that was a big step of breaking through the fog,.

I learned to LB less because I would ask to speak to my H instead of the WS. It also became easier to kick out the WS when that attitude arose. Also it helped the OP LB all over the place. See the OPs don't like the H, they like the WS. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Now there's a piece of info a BS can use to their advantage.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

JG,

Your comments and thought pattern are one of the reasons why I made this thread. U C, this is where many of us are.

Even if, even if the Ws is an xws, as long as they are NOT acting like the spouse, then remants of the WS exist. Anger, blame, frustration, lack of care, love and understanding are rampant. The BS can't tell if they should plan A or B and yet the xws is at home!??!?!? R they really? Mentally and emotionally, what is the body of this person doing to the family? Is recovery enough when the physical spouse is back but the WS stilll inhabits the mind and heart? No....... not in my opinion.

I learned to put the onis (ownership) of recovery on the spouse. The 'spouse' would want to do their fair share and then some to repair the M. Of course this is after it is well established that the BS has mended whatever wayward ways or habits they can to show they are pro M.

The WS' type of attitude on the other hand would fight any effort required by the BS and often subject the BS to more blame and abuse, eventually making the BS question if recovery is real or not. It is hard for the BS to realize that having the body but not the mind and heart does not constitute recovery. It is hard. We are happy just to have the WS home. But is that wise? Is it safe to have a partially rehabilitated convict in our home? One who has robbed our family of it's security and love? Would you leave your children in the hands of someone whose disposition you can't trust from 1 minute to the next just because his or her name is on the birth certificate?

Remember the A consists of EA and then in some cases PA. Having the physical body home may only reduce the PA but the EA continues in many cases.

Even after the supposed 'nc', it was obvious in my cases that the WS was NOT acting like a spouse. Soon it became evident that the contact continued. It had always been in the mind and heart of the WS. The fact that their contact ceased for a few days, did NOT in itself make me happy. Initially it did but not in the long run. I was suppose to be happy they had not talked for 3 days. WHOPPIE! I told the WS, I did not talk to the OW in months, I should be on cloud 9 so why was I soooo pisssed? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Ws couldn't answer. He wanted me to settle for his piddly 3 days of NC as a good thing. It wasn't. Withdrawal doesn't diminish with only 3 days of NC.

Each time the WS was put out, the anty went up. His reason for return had to be better than the last. He had to show his worth. I showed that it didn't matter to me if he was homeless. Yes, it hurt my heart but I couldn't show it because the WS would use it against me. The spouse would not. The turmoil had to stay with the WS/spouse. I could not let it suck me into his idenity crisis.

When I realized that, I was able to start real healing.

L.

Orchid:

You are not advocating the MB principles as recommended by Steve Harley to me.

I would encourage others to use the MB approach. Doing PLAN B without a good PLAN A for as long as possible will not work in my opinion. It would not have worked for my FWH.

I don't think we should try to change this system according to our own beliefs.

PLAN A with the WS for as long as possible, then PLAN B, then RECOVERY.

<small>[ February 03, 2004, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

I don't know if this is Plan A or B but it seems to be combination...the 180 degree turn around often helps push along to recovery!
Love, Julie
I like your anology of: Husband versus WH or even FWH!

I got this off http://www.divorcebusting.com. DivorceBusting suggests doing a 180.

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore!
2. No frequent phone calls
3. Do not point out good points in marriage
4. Do not follow him around the house
5. Do not encourage talk about the future
6. Do not ask for help from family members
7. Do not ask for reassurances
8. Do not buy gifts
9. Do not schedule dates together
10. Do not spy on spouse
11. Do not say "I Love You"
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get
busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends,
etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start
the conversation) be scarce or short on words
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his
whereabouts, ASK NOTHING
17. You need to make your partner think that you have
had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you
are going to move on with your life, with or without
your spouse
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull
back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more
important, realize what he will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show
your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him
someone he would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which
may be a while)
21. Never lose your cool
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic
23. Do not argue about how he feels (it only makes
their feelings stronger)
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really
saying to you
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you
want to speak out
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh &
focus on all the other parts of your life that are not
in turmoil)
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any
words you can say or write
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you
are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with
your spouse
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than
50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in
absolute negatives because he is hurting and scared
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad
you feel
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.

Orchid, I suppose I was one of many who you wrote this for. I agree completely with this. It is so difficult because Plan B would be ridiculous in my situation but I only have my W 95% of the time. The other 5% she is Foggy Girl. And that is a result of contact. I remember when she used to refer to my brother as Jimmy or James J because of his different personalities. This was when he was in 5 year A. So she even recognized it when it wasn't happening to her. Interesting approach. Every case has so many subtleties that you need to be flexible. Maybe a Plan A 1/2 is needed or a B-.

The Harleys do not agree with nor advocate the Divorcebusting approach. Steve Harley told me this specifically.

Again I say, the Marriagebuilder's approach with coaching from Steve Harley worked for me. I couldn't be happier!!

I strongly recommend not diverging from the Marriagebuilders' approach!!!

I would encourage others to use the MB approach. Doing PLAN B without a good PLAN A for as long as possible will not work in my opinion.
Yes but Dr Harley seems to be changing his approach and saying you should go to Plan B sooner if the affair won't end rather than waiting 6 months.

Now kiddies, don't try any of this without a trained professional to help you out.

Somehow, I don't think Orchid is suggesting a different approach from the MB approach.

What she's suggesting is a change of heart and attitude and understanding in the BS.

Trying to "Plan A a WS" leads to all kinds of crazy enabling behaviors that actually prolong the affair.

Ultimately, Chris is right - don't try to do MB without a professional.

BR and Chris,

Thanks for your clarification. It really helps.
I am not advocating a different line of thought. However, in retrospect it is foolish to spend sooo much precious time and energy on a WS in the fog. Instead as you all told me over and over again (in the early years...), work on myself. That was 1 hard lesson. I sure paid the price for it. Expensive as it was, the A lasted 3 years and I honestly believe it would have ended sooner if I could have plan A'd the spouses and not the WS. H even said so as he was coming out of the fog. Of course each WS and BS are different.. No fool proof remedy but over and over again we see the hurt of the BS and family. To hear from the children pains me the most.

BT,
Your list is good to consider. After doing one's best, if the BS does not see improvement, applying some of those suggestions helps the BS survive.

JG & Walking,
If there are points that help you benefit, then I am happy. It hurts my heart to see soooo many suffer so.
The road to recovery beit personal or marital is hard. Personal recovery is attainable by all BS'. Marital recovery does require the cooperation of the spouse. They must shed their WS title for the recovery to last. Otherwise it is basically a false recovery which tends to anger the BS and family.

With that in mind, I went back to the concepts section and found the following:

"...overall plan for marital recovery after an affair has three basic stages. The first stage separates the unfaithful spouse and the lover; the second stage maintains that separation through the period of emotional withdrawal experienced by the unfaithful spouse who is addicted to the lover; and the third stage recovers love between spouses, eliminates resentment of the betrayed spouse, and protects the marriage against future affairs. The goals of the third stage are achieved by following Four Rules for a Successful Marriage: Care, Protection, Honesty and Time). "

Note there are 3 stages. Care, Protection, Honesty and Time are key elements for the BS and Ws.
Steve Harley goes on to say:

"In general, a betrayed spouse's effort to encourage the wayward spouse to end the affair should address all the root causes of the affair, and offer a solid plan for marital recovery. It should not be one-sided, however. The plan should make the wayward spouse and the betrayed spouse equally responsible for following the overall plan."

Orchid: Equally sharing the responsiblity is not seen in false recoveries. Also commitment and endurance is not seen when a WS refuses to carry their share. I think this is key to identifying a good vs a false recovery.

"But plan A, an effort to end the affair with thoughtfulness and care, doesn't always work. In many cases a wayward spouse is so trapped by the addiction that he or she does not have the will-power to do the right thing. Once in a while the fog lifts and the cruelty and tragedy of the affair hits the wayward spouse right between the eyes. In a moment of grief and guilt, he or she promises to end it. But then the pain of withdrawal symptoms often brings back the fog with all its excuses and rationalization, and the affair is on again. "

Orchid: It is true, despite the best efforts of the plan A and regardless of how well it may have been executed, the addiction of the WS can cause the fog to linger. Tiring out a stressed and frustrated BS. Notice the shortlived return to santity so often seen. The pain of withdrawal brings back the fog and the BS and WS are back to square 1.

"Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the betrayed spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.'

Orchid: To me this is key. Identifying the ENs the BS is meeting. It may be keeping the house afloat. Paying the bills, doing the laundry, taking care of the children. The BS is meeting some needs. Never underestimate that fact. How many cake eating WS' are there? Many. More than we care to admit. From what I have seen, most WS are cakeeaters.....I'd venture to say all are at some point.

"So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B. "

Orchid: This vacilitating by the WS is in a effort to 'share the pain'. Would a loving spouse do that? Of course not. But a WS would and does over and over again.

Notice how Steve shows that after a 'reasonable period of time', plan B is recommended. That time frame will vary and to most BS it seems endless. All the more reason to love the spouse and plan B the Ws.

I am NOT advocating no plan A. I am suggesting that the BS do a reasonable plan A while learning how to improve the BS. Once that is established and the BS is able to function better, another view of showing love to the spouse should be distinguished from the plan B tactics.

Isn't it usually obvious to identify the WS when they are NOT caring? Yes, until the WS tries to do some character acting. At which time the WS can pretend to be nice but it is half-hearted at best. When the charade creates conflict for the OP, then the WS' true colors come out and the BS is hurt again. Often taken by surprise, the BS finds themselves sent back to square 1 and feels despair.

We can lessen that despair. We can know how a WS will act. I learned to ask my Ws, which character was he, when I needed to speak to him....the WS or H? Yes, I asked that directly. Hm...... just like talking to the wall, sometimes the most illogical approaches cut through the fog.

Mimi,
The MB approach is a good one. However, the application is often misapplied here and many BS' stay too long in plan A. I am not against MB principals. I am trying to extend a viewpoint that helped me. If I was smarter during the beginning of my visit here, the A may not have lasted as long. If we can get 1 MBer to shorten the length of their pain, it w/b worth all this effort. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

JMHO,
L.

I would like to add that I also see some benefit to going to Plan B sooner than some may expect although I also think an assessment of one's own situation is the catalyst for such action.

I went into Plan B after doing Plan A for about 1 month only.My situation was unique in a way so it was necessary for many reasons to go to Plan B, one important one being that I was rapidly losing the love I had for my WH.And it was also painfully clear how undecided he was between me and the homewrecker(HW) so I pulled the plug,so to speak, gave him my PBL and I have maintained my Plan B for at least 5 weeks now.It has helped me tremendously,I have grown so much and I feel safe in Plan B.WH was as happy as a clam having two women feeding his EN's when I was in Plan A,I could see it on his face so Plan B came soon thereafter.

As for my WH,he is still in contact with the HW by e-mail and cell phone(HW lives in Canada) but he is showing signs of the fallout such as depression,not calling his family,missing talking to me and seeing my face in his dreams and according to my SIL feeling guilty about how all this happened and how ugly it has turned out.I do believe that if I had strung out Plan A for very long,he would have been much more attached and unable to break free from the HW.I truly believe that like a child,he needed to see rather quickly that yes I do love him and I am willing to make changes to myself and work on our marruage BUT a marriage is not a threesome and until he stops the A and has NC with the HW we have nothing to discuss.That I think was a wake up call for him whether he was my H or my WH.

O

Orchid,

Yep yep yep! It's almost hysterical as I look back on it now, but you are right.

BR and Chris are also very right.

Miss ya lady!

Love ya!
K

Hey Knewjie,

Howa doin'? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Tell [H] and the rest of your clan I said Alooooha. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hope ya all are doing fine. Any more little ones? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hugz,
L.

L,

We're all doing great! We don't have any more little ones but I've been getting questioned a lot on it lately. Especially my MIL. Maybe it's time to make you an aunt. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

How are you and yours? I still don't have a updated picture of you all. When are you going to send it?

Love ya!
K

Hi Orchid,

Just had to post here because I think you're right, as you know, my own experience validates your hypothesis. I also think there is a certain "set" of relationship prerequisites (if I can call them that)where doing what you have suggested has the most chance of bringing a marriage into recovery.

My H couldn't decide whether to stay married or not, even after he gave up OW. I told him he needed to leave until he figured out what he wanted cuz I just couldn't handle having just the "body" and not the mind and spirit. I figured that if he came back, I got a bonus, a chance to build a better marriage.If he decided to divorce, I would be just that much more further ahead in my own personal recovery and adjustment to being a one parent household. It hurt way to much to live with daily undecidedness on his part. I saw it as a constant threat in my face, that if I wasn't near perfect, I might lose him for good.That's a crazy way to live, especially when you have to attend to the needs of small children and work.

The fact was the whole crazy mess wasn't (for the most part) about me or what EN's I did or didn't meet. It was about him and a MLC, some unresolved stuff from his own family issues, and the stress and sacrifice of raising 3 kids with one being multiply handicapped. He got depressed. I tried to tell him he was depressed, I asked him to go to MC, I wrote him letters asking what was wrong telling him how much I loved him. No, nothing, nada, zip. According to him, he was fine. Enter the attention of OW. That's all it took, fantasy, escape, a tremendous ego high. In his minds eye I had neglected him as I tried to rehabilitate our handicapped son. Did I? Sure, you bet I did. I neglected a number of things. I had no choice and now we have a teenager who can walk and communicate and enjoy life vs. one who would have likely needed total care. At the time he now admits he could not appreciate the value of what I was doing and I , as a nurse, could. He also admits to being selfish and resented that our son got a great deal of my attention. Did I abandonmy other responsibilities? Nope, not even close. I simply had to rearrange my priorities...for several years. H felt left out, even though I encouraged and offered and begged and sometimes even required him to be a part of our son's physical and social rehab. He did some willingly, but he's always been a "selfish" guy (by his own admission mind you)so he was more than willing to allow me to carry the bulk of the physical burden. How lovely. Did we grow apart? How could we not? Did resentment settle in? Oh yeah! On both parts. Perfect recipe for someone to have an A. He had more time than me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> and a willing single mother OW for him to rescue <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> (like I couldn't have used some rescuing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ).

Now I am a Christian woman, so I prayed and God guided me through every step I made. I felt Him so close guiding me in what to do and what to say and when. My H was so confused and miserable he went to IC. It didn't take him long to realize that to stay with OW meant a life more complicated than he already had. Nix OW. Stay married? Couldn't figure that one out, not right away at least. So, at my request and him agreeing, he moved to the house of a family friend about 15 miles past our place.

To me, asking him to move out was Plan B of sorts. It said "This is too painful, I can't live like this. When you make up your mind let me know." Due to the kids needs he was here in the mornings to help get them all to 3 different schools. I plan A'd, was upbeat, pleasant and confident. If he talk about us, I let my real feelings show, the hurt, the regret, the sadness, the hope, the desire to have something better. I went about making me better and fixing the things I knew he wanted to be different.

He says when he'd get off work and would have to drive past our street's freeway exit he'd cry. He's said that he'd get off the freeway sometimes and drive past our house and feel how empty the driveway seemed without his car there. He says living away from us was the worst time in his entire life. Often he would show up on the weekends and stay because our children refused to go on "visits" with him. I plan A'd as long as he was being a good daddy and was treating me with respect. Then it would come time for him to leave. He got a pretty good picture and feel of what his life would be like if he chose to divorce me. I was explicit that if we divorced I would not be his "friend", for I do not have friends who cheat and lie and betray. We would be co parents and that's it. He was out of the house almost 2 months to the day.

What do I have now? A husband that I am most certain wants to be here!!!!!!!!!!! He chose this option. In chosing it he knew it needed rebuilding and he and God ( and me!)set about doing a work, a WONDERFUL work. I can't even really say anymore, after a little more than 4 years in recovery, that my H is selfish anymore. He's a different H and I think I'm a different W. Is it perfect? Never will be, we're a work in progress. However, we both know we want to be here and are devoted to do the work and keep doing the work.

When one sticks too long in Plan A the WS has no motivation to change anything. They often get the best of both worlds. My plan A pretty much consisted of apologizing for my part in letting things get out of balance and then setting about changing me. Letting him go worked to my advantage. Getting to see what divorce would be like, for him, as well as his kids gave him the motivation to make a decision FOR his family. Had I insisted he stay home and try to work things out I think, and he now says, he would have become more and more frustrated. It was in experiencing what he would lose that he was able to move forward towards us instead of feeling like running away.

It's a delicate balance, this approach. It does work,but it's not for every marriage. I am glad the Harley's are recommending less time in Plan A these days. I could never imagine living in the pure hell of an A flying in my face every day for 6 months! I was a basket case within days and after a month of fencesitting there was no other option for my mental and emotional health than for WS to live elsewhere.

God bless and all the best to everyone!

Dear Knewjie,

Aunty Orchid? I love it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

MIL asking? How is she doing? Are they still up north?

Hope all is well.

Hugz,
L.

Dear mthrrhbard,

Wow! I would like all the newbies to read your post. You showed application to what we have read here @ mb and from the books.

Thanks for posting. All types of recovery take a while. Finally knowing our personal boundaries and stance is key critical to personal recovery and if the spouse is willing, then marital recovery.

Thanks again for sharing. I always love your posts. They are so easy for this 'island girl' to relate to. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hugz,
L.

<small>[ February 10, 2004, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>