For any of you wo read my "confused" post of a few days ago, you know my WH was going to look at an apartment and asked me to look at it with him.

Against most of your advice, I DID go look at it with him. Nothing fancy, but perfectly fine for a male alone. Then we sat for an hour in his truck while he proceded to panic, turn white, and tell me why he couldn't do it.

1) Can't afford it. (Told him, yes he can, he just has to learn to live on a budget and cut down on his boozing. He's had it made the last month--been living on probably $250 a week with no expenses other than fuel, food, and booze.)

2) Not sure he can keep her from moving in. (He can if he wants to. It's an efficiency--legally only two people can live in it, not two people and a baby.) Will he keep her out--that's probably another story.

3) Never rented before. Please come in and help him fill out the papers. (I declined...said I looked at it with him, but that it was HIS apartment to rent and thus he didn't need my help to fill out the papers. I sat in the truck.)

Well, he did rent it on a month-to-month basis. It's available on February 9th. Will he back out and get what money he can back before then? I don't know. He's pretty freaked out right now.

It was REALLY hard for me to do this. I almost just said "Okay, let's leave and think some more", but I forced myself to force him. In one way I feel good, that at least I've made some kind of decision, but on the other hand, I feel like I'm slitting my own throat and may be pushing him into divorcing me.

I tried to make it clear the entire time that I was NOT doing this to try and divorce him and that I want more than anything in this world for us to be back together again and happy. I want to ride his Harley with him. I want to travel with him. But right now, he's going to her house twice a day, hauling her kids around, and taking care of her things, and staying with her at night. He's being her husband, not mine.

He dropped me back off at work and he was crying and downing his customary "I'm really stressed" quart-o-beer. He said, "You'll probably never come and visit me, will you?". Again, I told him I wasn't doing this to divorce him, but to give him the space he thinks he needs so that he can think, and so that I can distance myself from the pain. I also suggested that once he's out and has space to think, that he should consider getting help for his drinking, because he'll be able to think a lot more clearly sober and because if he cuts booze out of the budget, he'll have enough to live on.

Needless to say, I haven't committed to a no-contact Plan B at this point. I don't even know if I'll survive the move-out. All he'll move in the beginning are his clothes, because the apartment is furnished and he can rob all necesary bedding and dishes from our travel trailer in storage.

On top of this, I then came back to work and filed an appeal with my daughter's high school. (Again, if any of you have seen my other posts, she's been kicked out for skipping too many classes and is currently sitting at home doing a correspondence course through a local community college. This will NOT work for an undisciplined, disorganized 14-yr-old with ADHD.)

This is the first time I've ever done an appeal with the school, so it should be interesting. I do have a friend who has spent $22,000 on legal bills appealing things for her profoundly handicapped daughter, and has been successful, so she's offering to be my free advice right now.

In one way, I've had a couple very brief moments where I actually felt calm today, because I'd done something. But now I'm getting scared. And once I'm at home and it all starts to sink in, I'm really going to go nuts.

Did I do the right thing? Is there hope for saving the marriage this way?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(I declined...said I looked at it with him, but that it was HIS apartment to rent and thus he didn't need my help to fill out the papers. I sat in the truck.)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know from your other posts how hard this was for you to do. I can tell you are trying really hard to let him make his own decisions, live his own life, and enjoy the consequences of his decisions. It is a baby step in the right direction - and I know it took a lot of effort on your part.

Of course you're scared, this behavior doesn't fit your familiar comfortable pattern. You're moving in the right direction, though. Growth is really, really hard sometimes.

Enjoy this time. There is a VERY good chance it will be short-lived.

I learned quite a bit about myself living alone for the 2 months my H was out of the house. He's back now.

I learned how much I depended on him, and I learned that I have strength to do things on my own. I took the kids camping for vacation for a week. He visited us for one day, but I roughed it the rest of the week, and it was fabulous...very low stress.

You are capable, and yes, this is the right direction to go to improve your M...I know...seems backwards. A break will be what you need to start over.

I really feel like it's the right step, because doing what we've been doing isn't working. But yesterday I had hope, because he was really scared and really freaking out and asking me "will you come visit me?", etc.

Then last night he called to tell me not to expect him home (he really hasn't been coming home, but usually doesn't call to tell me that), but that he'd explain today.

I know...shouldn't call him...but not on formal Plan B right now. I called just to see how he was feeling, because he sounds like he's coming down with bad bronchitis.

VERY cold conversation. He just said he was still feeling cruddy. I said, how about going to the doctor? He said maybe. (long silence...) Then he said, well, goodbye. I said bye. We hung up. No promise of "I'll call you later or anything."

Maybe he decided overnight that he's happy about all this and really doesn't need me anymore. Maybe he and OW are celebrating his moving out. Maybe he's trying to break contact with me.

Worried? Can you tell? No, I'm not going to take the idea back. I still know in my heart he should have a place away from me right now. But I'm really, really scared and he hasn't even officially moved out yet. That's next Monday.

Lordslady - The MB program works, of the I am sure. So just stay with the program. Your H may need to hit bottom, and that may have to be by living with OW.

It will be painful, yes, but necessary. Stick with us and we will get you through this. In the meantime, get that kitchen sink clean.

So what about Plan B???

His moving out would be the BEST time to move to Plan B. How long have you been in Plan A? Do you think you've done enough, need more time to show him all the love you can...

Sorry if I have not been caught up with your situation so far.

Have you looked into 180 techniques. Haven't read much, but the phone conversation would have gone differently if you were in 180.

You: Hey, how you feeling?
Him: Cruddy
You: Going to see the doctor?
Him: Don't know
Silence
You: Just thought I'd call to see if you were doing better or worse, gotta go, bye
Him: Bye

YOU get off the phone first. Don't call him. When he calls to tell you something unpleasant (won't be home) say "Thanks for telling me this, won't you be glad in a few days you won't have to call me to tell me you'll be out?"

Yes, the OW will probably move in, then it's a good time to switch to Plan B, to have ALL of his ENs met by her...and she will fail...and there will be LBs...and he will try to reach out to you "just to talk" to have some ENs met by you. A Plan B letter will be important, and the sooner you can give him that...preferably at the beginning of Plan B, the better. Start working on it now?

Believer, just for you, if my darned headache goes away, I'll try and get that sink cleaned tonight.

StillHereMakingIt, I really can't say how long I did a plan A because I was sort of doing it and sort of not until sometime in December (before I really read up on MB and bought SAA). I've done better since, but still LB a couple times. Seems it's just made it easier and easier for him to be away doing his thing because I'm not hounding him.

Our situation is a little different because he's an alcoholic who had been sober for 2 years (no AA program--too bad, it would have given him a support system). He started back drinking heavily shortly after A started. I believe guilt gets the best of him and he medicates to numb.

Because of this situation, I'm not sure what to really do (besides go to Al-Anon which I really have to start doing. It's just so darned cold up here at night that I just want to go home and cover up. I'm sick of zero degrees and snow!)

The OW is leaving an alcoholic husband and wants another, apparently. I believe most of their (H and OW) nights consist of them drinking until they pass out. I have heard there have been a couple very ugly arguments between the two of them, especially when drinking, but doesn't seem to change things any.

H called at noon to ask me how to arrange for electric to be hooked up in apartment (he's never had to do anything like this before--I always did it). Told him, just call and tell them when you are moving in. They'll put it in your name. End of conversation.

He's very cold today. As I've posted on all my other posts, I just want SO much to believe there is still decent hope that we can be back together, but every time I turn around, something else seems to make me lose more hope.

So I'll probaby be a pain in everyone's butt for while because I need a LOT of reassurance!

Originally posted by lordslady:

This will NOT work for an undisciplined, disorganized 14-yr-old with ADHD.)

This is the first time I've ever done an appeal with the school, so it should be interesting. I do have a friend who has spent $22,000 on legal bills appealing things for her profoundly handicapped daughter, and has been successful, so she's offering to be my free advice right now.

Do a web search for "CHADD" .... they are the most knowledgable when it comes to getting your school to pony up $$ so they meet the needs of your special child. CHADD has parent advocates, some free advice, but some for fee .... and they can bring a school system (one which is reluctant to spend money on your child) to FULL ATTENTION!!!

Also, there are on-line Al-anon support groups if weather is an issue where you live.

However .... here in California ... life is perfect <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

except for the crime, smog, fires, winds, earthquakes...

Pep

lordslady - You are doing fine. Don't try to second guess yourself. The plans here work.

Please keep taking care of daughter and getting your house in order. Forget about what H is doing. He will be back. The best thing for you now is to make your home a wonderful place. It will give you self-esteem and comfort.

I wasted so much time and energy on WS and I'm sorry for it now. I wish I had just stuck to the marriagebuilders program. But of course we are so scared when betrayed that we don't have any faith that things will get better. So hang in there and keep your chin up.

Believer,

You SO hit the nail on the head there. I am feeling so hurt and so scared that I don't have any faith.

And that puts me in a vicious circle because I am a Christian, and so I'm angry with myself for my lack of faith. I get up each morning and ask myself why I can't just turn it all over to God and be calm and ride it out. But as the day wears on, I get nutty again.

Again, thanks for the encouragement.

Maybe along with it, you could send some sunshine and some warm weather to melt all this snow. We're supposed to get another 4-7" tonight on top of everything we have. If you live in a warm climate...enjoy it!! (I'm just appreciative that last Sunday, WH did bring over a small snowblower he got running and left it for me to use so I can quit scooping. He must still care a little.)

Hoping....

lordslady...

I know you are scared...
I know you believe that doing "something or 'not doing "something will be the cause of your husband leaving or divorcing or whatever...

but it's not,
you aren't that powerful...

none of us are...
he will do and choose as he does...
and alone is accountable for his actions...

and you, are a little lost right now.....
but you don't have to be...

lets just step and look as objectively as you can..and figure out a plan for YOU...not him...that anchors you, restores your self to you...and removes you from this extroidinary chaos...

You have been with a man for twenty some years who has been sober a total of two of those years...and you said this...

Because of this situation, I'm not sure what to really do (besides go to Al-Anon which I really have to start doing. It's just so darned cold up here at night that I just want to go home and cover up. I'm sick of zero degrees and snow!)

well nice try at the excuse...but I'm not buying it....it's cold every winter....
and I do mean that kindly...
but instead of driving around with your WS to look at apartments get your self to ALANON..
they have the resources
the experience
the companionship you need to remove yourself from this chaos...
tomorrow you find them...

He dropped me back off at work and he was crying and downing his customary "I'm really stressed" quart-o-beer

ummm read that line again
and again
and again...
read until you can read it objectively through my eyes...
I want you to say that you will
1. never ever be sitting next to a grown man drinking his beer in the afternoon behind the wheel of a car...
ever ever ever again...
2. that from this day forward you are making a decision love buster be dammed that you will not be part or witness to this behavior..
3. that you will take his keys
get out of the car
and do and go somewhere safe....

the time is at hand to be done with this nonsense...
and there is nothing you can do help him..until you ground yourself outside of his chaos and alcoholism...

Is there hope for saving the marriage this way?

there is always hope
there is lots and lots of hope..
but not one ounce of hope in enabling his behavior..

plan a
plan b...
will not work on a raging alcoholic...no matter what the label you applay to it...

CHANGE your whole focus...

1. He moves out with NO assistance from you from here on..
be kind be pleasant..
just be too busy to be available for any ANY assistance...
gosh I would love to help you with this..but i am on my way out right now...sorry dear..

gosh I'd love to talk with you on the phone...but I'm right in the middle of something...bye bye


I want you to go to alanon..
then I want you to fill this weekend with activities for you and the kids..
go to the movies yourself if you have too
get up saturday am and find a close friend and be busy allll dayyyy....

I want you to remove yourself from his actions...
because no matter what he will do as he does...

what are your other options
continue to enable this insane behavior..

I am praying that you heed my advice...
call a friend on the phone and reach out to lean on them...

ARK

lordslady - Calm down. It is very hard to be in your position. First let me give you a hug <<<<<HUG>>>>>. Now you need to realize that the program here does work. So stick with it.

I am a follower of Jesus. In my darkest hour, I gave up hope too. I asked myself why did this happen to me. I felt like I was a good wife, tried to do the right thing. I was really angry at the Lord.

But I continued to pray. Sometimes I recited words out of the Bible - "Lord help my unbelief."
You need to know that the Lord is on your side, knocking at your door. All your have to do is open the door and let Him in.

I think you have found this site for a reason. We are here to listen to your pain and show you the Lord's love. It is a love that can overcome anything, even what you are going through.

Ark^^, I do appreciate your advice. I don't normally ride with H when he is drinking--or I drive. I knew that day he was having the quart, it was the middle of the day and he's a big (physically) guy, so it wasn't going to affect him driving me the few miles back to work.

As for winter, I know it's cold every winter. I just hate it. I'd do GREAT in Phoenix! This last month has been especially brutal because of very low temps and and a little snow nearly every day (4-6" predicted for today). The streets are dirty and sloppy and I've come close to hitting something (or someone) nearly every day. (I apparently have a car geared for Phoenix, too!) I do intend to find an in-town Al-Anon meeting I can attend, but may check out the on-line support. That would be much warmer, at least for now.

As for doing something with a friend--that'd be my problem. When you are married for 19 years (and to an alcoholic to boot), you don't make a lot of single friends to hang out with. I'm trying to figure that one out.
-------
Believer, that verse is one I repeat a LOT, too! I guess I just feel if I'm a Christian, I should be a lot stronger than I am. I'm trying to hang in there. I pray daily for a change in my H's heart, for obstacles to be placed between him and OW, and for strength for me. I continue to get up every day. It's just that sometimes I don't feel like it. It's so hard thinking that things could be like this forever.

BTW, I didn't get the sink shined last night. Headache didn't go away, and H came home for a rare change. He's really sick with bronchitis or something and I think it was girls night out (meaning that OW and her friend go to meat market to do their sleazy dance thing). I don't think he was comfortable flopping at her friend's house, so I took care of him. I was a good wife. Maybe I shouldn't have done it, but made him food and gave him meds and made sure he was comfy and felt loved.

When he does move out next week, contact or no contact, I just want to leave him with positive feelings about me.

lordslady...

your post is nothing but one big avoiding excuse to me about the real issues at hand...

IF your daughter was engaging in the same actiivity in relationship to enabling a alcoholic who is grossly disrepecting while CLAIMING total victim what advice would you give her...

knew that day he was having the quart, it was the middle of the day and he's a big (physically) guy, so it wasn't going to affect him driving me the few miles back to work.

wow...is that a load of baloney or what...I don't care how big he is..
It is not healthy for any man to be drinking alcohol in the middle of the day while CRYING and driving you or anyone else around...

The fact that you sat next to him and condoned this behavior is you handing him the loaded weapon to shoot you and your chance of recovery...
each time you condone such insanity it takes and defeats and deflects your energy and need to set clear boundairies on behavior like this...
each time you sit next to a grown man doing and don't do or say anything...you are sealing your fate to power struggle this issue over and over...becauas at what point is enough enough...?

At what point are you going to be strong enough to say..
husband..
I can not and will not sit next to you in this care while you drink and cry.

As long as you continue to defend indefensible behavior you will not be in any type of recovery for your or him or your marriage..

As for doing something with a friend--that'd be my problem. When you are married for 19 years (and to an alcoholic to boot), you don't make a lot of single friends to hang out with. I'm trying to figure that one out.

figure it out this way...go out alone if and when you have to...go to an ALANON meeting...
get yourself out of the house this weekend and be unavailable to assist him in any more of this...

these are his choices and they are piss poor at best...
he is no victim yet you sure do a lot of protecting and saving...

grown man drinking beer doesn't know how to go about and get lights turned on his apartment...

so YOU help him...
does that make any sense????????

Lordslady....
YOU have thousands of choices here to make...
thousands...
and you have to start with the basics...

1. As long as he is drinking there is nothing NOTHING you can do...
so what you must do is totally remove yourself from that equasion...and you can continue to CHOOSE not to as you are doing...
but you will get NO fARTHER than you are this very minute...

YOU decide to STOP being part of this...
that is the only place to start the road too healing any of this....

ARK

<small>[ February 05, 2004, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

If you are in Plan A...then by all means treating him well when he came home was the righ thing to do...but Plan B is a logical step when he moves out.

Have you thought about what a Plan B letter will read like? Have you thought about what you are willing to put up with, or not, for him to return to the house?

I have a draft of a Plan B letter, but I'm not happy with it yet, nor am I sure I'm strong enough to hold to it yet.

I know I want the affair to end. But as for the drinking, would I take him back if he was still drinking? Probably, though I'd like him to get help first. Thing is...you can't MAKE and alcoholic stop. They have to choose to, we have to decide if we're willing to live with them drinking or not. For 23 years, of and on, I have, and I can't say my life has been horrible. It's had bad times, but it's had lots of good ones, too. Maybe not as good as if he were not an alcoholic, but I'm satisfied (or was until now).

Then there's stuff like tonight. It's snowing, the roads are really bad, and a neighbor had to push my car into the drive. H has a 4x4 truck. I have a car that hates snow. If my cul-de-sac doesn't get cleared by tomorrow morning, I can't get out to work unless he's here with the truck. And right now, that's not looking promising, but I asked him.
See, he knows I need him. He has me over a barrel.

Sooooo much easier from a logistics standpoint if it were spring.

Lordslady,
Hi, I can relate to your situation. My husband is an alcoholic, still drinks. I have been married to my husband for 20 years and I am a born-again Christian also; husband is not. We've been through the gamut...

There were many, many, many days I wished I had never met him. However, there is hope. Never give up on what God can do in your lives, and your marriage. Today I can say I am so very happy I listened to that small, still voice in my heart that told me to forgive my husband and give him one more chance. Over the last 5 years the changes in him have been dramatic. Yes, we were separated and *almost* divorced, right down to the very end; lawyers drawing up the final papers, court, the whole nine yards.

Anyway to make a very long story short, I learned a lot during our separation; and so did my husband. Without a doubt what helped me most was leaning on the Lord and giving my husband to Him to deal with. It drove my H crazy when we were separated and I didn't contact him. His friends would tell him I seemed happy and peaceful and was doing good (little did they know).

The only advice I can give you is if you aren't doing so already, read the Bible daily and pray without ceasing. God will take car of you, and your situation and He CAN do miracles.

May God bless you richly,

AW

AW,

Did your husband have an A? If so, I assume you separated because he didn't give it up when you found out?

This is all just so difficult. I do try to pray daily. Right now I'm praying throughout the day, just little short "help me God, and change his heart" prayers.

He called tonight at 8pm--said he was coming home after he was done hauling OW around, but now it's 10:30 and I've seen nothing. I guess OW and her needs are more important than being here for me in case he needs to take me to work in his 4x4 because of the snow (OW doesn't even have a job so doesn't need a ride if roads are bad).

I am trying SO hard to believe we will end up back together again. I can't take the thought of him not being in my life anymore, even if he is treating me really bad right now.

I know God never gives us more than we can bear, and I'm trying to believe he's allowing this because I need to grow, but it's hard.

Lordslady,
Yes my dh had an A, several of them. When we separated the last time 5 years ago it was because of his A, his drinking and abuse. I didn't know about the A but found out after he left. His OW was his drinking buddy but he realized soon after we separated what her true colors were, though at the time he didn't care because he was never sober. I didn't pray for reconcilation or anything like that during that time period but prayed for the Lord to be ever-present in his life and take care of my son's father. I prayed for the Lord to help me be a better Christian and to keep me on the path to Him. If you haven't read the Power of a Praying Wife by Stormie O'Martian I highly recommend it. It changed my life. Made me realize it was me that needed God's changing. Stormie's three word prayer 'change me Lord' became what I prayed and you know what He heard me. Keep praying Lordslady, He hears your prayers and will answer them. Pray for deliverance out of the hand of the enemy and for His protection over you and your heart. I will pray for you tonight too. God bless,
AW

AW,

My H had already seen a lot of light as to what kind of person the OW is. She's 25, no job, a baby, another daughter grandpa has custody of, and a son born when she was 16 that she has no contact with at all. She is currently separated and living on government subsidy. Says she doesn't have the $ to file for a divorce. I think she's hoping my H will give it to her. She spends her time drinking, smoking pot, and basically being lazy and sleazy from what I understand. He went to a nightclub with her one night and witnessed dancing she did with another female friend that made him sick enough he looked out the window all night. I've heard they've had some pretty bad arguments already, but he just keeps seeing more and more of her, and less and less of me.

Like your H, I don't think what he sees matters right now, because each time it begins to make him uncomfortable, he buries it in booze.

I see him maybe 2 nights a week and talk to him a couple times a day on the phone. The OW drinks with him, so he goes to her friends' house, where she's currently living, and drinks until he falls asleep most every night.

I just fear he'll never come out of his fog, even if I do break contact (or reduce it drastically to a bare minimum) when he moves out next week.

LL