Does anyone have or know of a source to find information on serial cheaters?

My FWH has admitted two PAs and one EA during our 24 years together. These were all confessed within the past four months.

My H says he wants to stay in the marriage but one of my fears is that he is just waiting for things to calm down between us before resuming contact with OW or finding new OW. With three As during our marriage plus one PA during his first marriage, is he capable of being faithful to one woman? I think he was using our marriage to keep from having to commit to another person -- he could enjoy the appearance of a respectable family man and the excitement of an A on the side. He briefly went to IC and insists his cheating days are over FOREVER but it has only been a few months since he stopped contact with OW#2(PA). He still sees OW#3(EA) at work.

Does anyone have any thoughts/statistics on this? Can a person really change their behavior after so many years of multiple infidelities?

Toofargone -

sss again!

I think a serial cheaters can change if he/she truly wants to change. I don't think IC would be brief for a serial cheater.

My H is still in IC (goes weekly) and has been since late September. He is also in AA (since he is an alcoholic also). Yeah, double trouble.

I am now starting to notice changes in him. I am beginning to believe that he will not have another A because he has witnessed my tremendous pain and devastation and is so sorry for it. It's turning out that H has childhood issues to deal with.

Hopefully Stillwed will pop in and give you some good information about serial cheaters. I know she helped me a great deal. Or, you could do a search on her posts and pick up some information that way.

Good luck!

sss

<small>[ February 04, 2004, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: stillsosad ]</small>

SSS,

This is a bit off your original subject because I don't necessarily consider my H a serial cheater (had one P/A 12 years ago and is currently in another), but question for you:

You mentioned your H is an alcoholic. Was he drinking during the A's or sober. My husband is really deep into his fog and this mess of an A, and is drinking heavily after being sober for 2 years. He's never been involved in AA--always did the sober periods on his own, though I wish he would have had a support network.

Just curious if you were dealing with an A and drinking at the same time and how you dealt with it (plan A, plan B or something else).

lordslady -

So we don't steal Toofargone's thread, I'll post a separate response to you.

sss

Too

I don't think there is any specific data on serial cheaters.

Believe me I tried to find some.

Some quick questions....when were the affairs all three EA and PA. How long were they and how far apart were they?

Now lets talk about the word serial cheater.

Its not a clearcut definition. Sex addicts while they have repeated affairs are not serial cheaters....they are addicts.

Sexual predators have repeated affairs with a specific type of partner but are not serial cheaters....they are predators.

Serial cheater is someone that has repeated affairs with no emotional investment. In other words the "thrill" or newness of the relationship is what the seek.

Each different type requires a different approach.

Addicts of course are treated for their addiction with programs similar to other addictions such as drugs and alcohol. Their are more about their addictions and less about sex.

Predators have past issues such as abuse that have to be dealt with. They also may have some specific clinical mental health problems such as narcissist personality or bipolar personality. Most often a predator is seeking control so his/her affairs are more about power and less about sex. And that need for control often stems from a past experience or experiences where the predator was controlled by someone else.

Serial cheaters pose a different problem. They may have some mental health or personal issues (most people who have affairs have some issues serial cheaters or not). But the primary "need" they seek is the newness of a relationship. This is a toughie. The one thing they think they need is the one thing that cannot be giving by the betrayed spouse. Retraining how someone thinks in regards to a spouse sexually or in terms of relationships is harder to do here. Why? Because a sex addict and a predator most often have a specific issue or issues that can be addressed.

One other thing. Men are the most likely to be serial cheaters. If there is a "gap" in his affairs he may not be telling you about all of them. Its not uncommon for a serial cheater to leave on affair and go straight into another. Especially when the affairs were not discovered. Often one affair ends when the opportunity to start a "new" affair presents itself having the serial cheater jump from one affair to another. My wife was the 13th affair partner for the OM. Of course he swore there was only one affair in the begginning. And his wife only knew of 3 of his other affairs. He would literally end one affair to begin another.

SDFR, you make some very good points.

I put my H in the serial cheater category because:

1) Repeat A's with no or little emotional investment/attachment.
2) Liked the thrill, rush, secrecy, in-love feeling, admiration, being wanted/desired, etc. of the A.

It was all about how it made him feel. Although H would occasionally do nice things for the OWs (some gifts, thoughtful conversation, etc.), conversations were mostly about sex...the A was mostly about sex. Even though the sex was not very good (per H), the build up to it was what made him feel good. He wanted to hear about how much someone wanted him, needed him, etc. He moved from A to A with few breaks in between. Probably the longest break was early in his first M and when we were dating, however, I did learn that shortly after meeting me he contacted OW#2 again and pretty much carried on an EA until 12/02 when it went PA again.

I think he was always on the lookout...putting out feelers...for the next A partner, even during an A.

My H also has childhood issues (sexual abuse, abandonment, infidelity, alcoholism) tied directly to his mother which he is working on with IC. H's mother abandoned him when he was 12 and had many A's that he and his brother witness prior to that. I think this is all tied together with his alcoholism and serial cheating.

Here's something that just hit me a couple of days ago. I saw my IC last week and was talking (whining) about whether H really loved me, why does he want to stay married to me...I don't seem to fit the criteria?? All other women he's been with (M or A) have dark hair, dark eyes, darker completion, etc. I'm completely opposite...strawberry blond, green eyes, fair skin, etc. IC didn't really say anything except that she thought it was an interesting observation. I was looking through some pictures of H when he was younger and when I saw his family picture, something clicked. His mother has dark hair, dark eyes, dark completion, etc.? Could there be a connection here??

Toofargone, after reading SDFR's post, how do you view your H? What do you think?

sss

<small>[ February 05, 2004, 08:54 AM: Message edited by: stillsosad ]</small>

sfrf,
My H married first wife in 1977, began PA the first year of their marriage about the time his wife learned she was pregnant. Marriage ended in divorce.

We were married in 1980. He has admitted to PA that began in 1992, lasted a few months (he can't remember exactly how long) and ended some time in 1993.

He has admitted to another PA that began in mid-1997 and sexual relationship was ended by OW five years later, in late 2002. They remained "friends" and he continued to pursue a sexual relationship with her up to and including the day he confessed this affair to me in September 2003.

He started pursuing another women around May/June 2003, which was still EA when I discovered the cell phone records with calls to her home (one month there were 75 calls). He insisted they were "just friends" but he was sneaking around to call her, had complained to her about me and discussed our marriage (including sex life), had confessed having one affair to her (she had confessed having an PA to him also). He stopped calling her when I discovered phone records but he still works with her. He admitted he was physically attracted to her and would have pursued PA if the opportunity was there.

He insists he has told me about all affairs. I asked him to tell me about other women he was attracted to but did not pursue relationships with and he said there were no other women. I hate to say it but I suspect there may be things he has not confessed as he has been lying to me since D-Day. I suspect there may be some ONS in there somewhere, probably in the first few years of our marriage as I was out of state for school on two occasions, once for 4 weeks and once for 6 weeks.

I do not believe he is a sexual addict or predator from reading descriptions about these individuals. I do believe he would classify as a serial cheater, especially since he was ready to begin another affair so soon after the sexual relationship with OW#2 was ended in 2002.

He insists his affairs were for sex only and that he never loved these women. He said he told them whatever he believed would keep them in the relationship. He admitted he was lying to me and to them.

It may seem weird but it bothers me that he was involved with OW#2 emotionally/physically for over six years yet he had no objection to "no contact" letter, had no desire to call her or see her. He told me that he doesn't want anything to do with her. I believe him because it doesn't seem to bother him at all that she is no longer a part of his life after talking or seeing her almost daily for over six years. That should make me very happy, right?? Well, it does but it also disturbs me that he can turn his emotions on and off so easily. If he didn't love her, why was he risking our marriage to be with her and if he did love her, how can he stop loving her so easily??

If my FWH is hiding other affairs or ONS, do you think I will ever know?? I don't. He is really very good at this and I wouldn't have the knowledge I have now if he hadn't confessed. I trusted him completely and had no suspicions that he was capable of doing this.

SSS,
I cannot believe this but I have had the same observation about my H that you had. His first wife and every OW have had long dark hair/eyes and darker complexion. I have shorter strawberry blonde hair, green eyes, and fair complexion. I even commented to H that I noticed he seemed to prefer a different type of woman than me. It just seemed to anger him. He said he didn't choose them because of their hair color or complexion.

My H insists all his affairs were for the sex only. He never gave any of the OW anything -- no gifts, flowers, cards, didn't remember birthdays, etc. OW#2 complained to me about this after he confessed their affair. She told me that he was thoughtless and inconsiderate and didn't know how to treat a woman, even though she stayed in the PA for over five years and remained "friends" after that. She said she always "forgave" him for not giving her anything or remembering her birthday.

SSS - PS. You aren't my other personality posting on this site, are you? And we don't have the same husband, do we? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

SSS,
Had your husband ever commented that you needed to get some sun or needed a tan? Mine has and I had seen pictures of his first wife and when I later saw the other women and they all looked so similar, I remembered his comments. It was just another thing to bring out my insecurities. I had never wanted to expose my procelain skin to those UV rays -- bad burns usually resulted -- but I knew that a tanned body looked better.

Okay here is shocker for both of you to think about.

The OM's wife had blonde hair and was full figured.

Of his dozen plus affairs I have been able to positively or by rumor identify four of them.

ALL of them are petite brunettes!

okay

Too

I agree that your husband is probably not a predator or an addict. I also believe he is a serial cheater. Based more on the fact he seems to have been with an affair partner most of his marriage past and present. Though he lacks the numbers so to speak the percentage of time in an affair is consistent with a serial cheater.

So it means a couple of possible things...

First of all he has self esteem issues...they could be he doesn't feel highly enough of himself or he thinks too highly of himself. One means he needs constant validation the other means he feels entitled.

Secondly apparently he has never learned to set boundaries. If his first affair ended because of his infidelity and he gained nothing from it then its clear he doesn't know how to or doesn't feel he needs to set boundaries. Two marriages two times vows/boundaries of marriage ignored.

Third and you are not going to like this about him...he has learned to objectify or devalue women...to some extent that includes you. Here is why. He readily admits he told whatever lie it took to get these women. So he has no empathy for these women as people. Secondly he repeated cheated on you so again no empathy for you. The speed with with he could detatch from a person who was a sex partner for what 5-6 years shows he doesn't get emotionally involved with these women. Not normal to be that physically intimate with someone and NOT develope some form of attatchment unless you can remain detatched to them as a person.

Fourth, he has serious honesty issues. Face it having affair means living a life of lies. Repeat affairs suggest a comfort level or acceptance of routine deception. Most remorseful WSs say the hated the lieing as much as anyting indeed BSs have as much or harder time getting over the lies than the sex.

What to do----heck if I know I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

All kidding aside I don't know never researched anything beyond what repeat affairees were and what their motives/reasons were. And I did it with an eye of trying to understand how the OM manipulated my wife not with the thought of trying to understand him.

I would venture this is a tough thing to work thru because of the nature of it...being so many components to it.

Toofargone

Wow, that was spooky reading your last two posts! They say everybody has a twin out there somewhere! I have had several people mention to me quite often in the past year that they just met someone who looked just like me. Maybe it's you!

Yes, my H has made comments about the fact that it's hard for me to tan. In fact, last summer when I was totally out of it after discovering the A, I didn't do much else but cry laying in a lounge chair by the pool. H commented that he thinks that was the best tan I ever had. Whatever!
LOL

So, SDFR, I guess you are confirming that blonds and/or strawberry blonds are doomed in M because of all those petite brunettes running around out there! LOL

Actually, aren't there more brunettes in the world period? They outnumber blonds, redheads, etc. by quite a bit? Seems like I read that somewhere a long time ago.

Man Too, I still have the spooky feeling from reading your posts! Weird.

Take care.

sss

SDFR,
Thanks for the feedback. I am not surprised by these possibilities. This whole affair mess and trying to find out who this man is that has been living with me for 24 years is wearing me down.

My FWH went to IC for 7 sessions (then stopped) but refused to discuss anything they talked about. He said the sessions were confidential between his counselor and himself. I know legally that is true but I thought sharing what he learned in counseling would be beneficial to recovery. He mentioned once or twice that he would tell me someday but he wasn't ready to share now. The only changes I saw in him while he was going to counseling were an increased reluctance to answer questions about his affairs and statements that he knew he would be okay if we divorced.

I know his multiple affairs are complicating my recovery. When he first told me in September of one PA, I did positive self-talk regarding things like; 1) length of marriage prior to infidelity -- which I thought at first was 21 years, but later learned his first affair started after 12 years of marriage. 2) length of affair vs length of marriage -- he first told me affair lasted a few months so I compare a few months vs over 23 years of marriage. Later learned first affair was a few months, second was six years. 3) he admitted to having only one affair lasting a few months -- okay one short affair in over 23 years of marriage -- I thought I could accept that. When he admitted multiple affairs and I learned how long each lasted, it got increasingly more difficult. And then the continued lying -- so much that I would inadvertantly learn facts because he would forget what he told me and would think I already knew something when I didn't. I have honestly been trying to find a way to accept everything and move forward but I still feel there are missing pieces that I need. I still feel I don't know him well enough to decide whether to stay in the marriage or not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, SDFR, I guess you are confirming that blonds and/or strawberry blonds are doomed in M because of all those petite brunettes running around out there! LOL
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No I am saying I should have married a blonde and bypassed all this heartache! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Just kidding of course.

Too

I am suppose to be studying for an exam but you've got my mind whirling. I was thinking about the limited number of exit affairs I knew of and the limited number of just plain affairs.

I found it interesting was that almost all the exit affairs I knew of the OP strongly resembled the betrayed spouse...by more similar than dis-similar.

And of the few just affairs I knew of or have read here the OP was almost never like the betrayed spouse...of course exceptions to both sides but the majority of the time this held true.

Could it be that IN just affairs...sort of like saying JUST RUN OVER BY A CAR NOT A SEMI-TRUCK <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> .... a serial cheater conciously or subconciously deliberately picks someone not like their spouse? After if they think they love their spouse but want no emotional attatchment to a would be affair partner then picking someone opposite of the betrayed spouse would hold down the risk of getting emotional attatched. In other words they deliberately select someone that will not compete with their spouse in the emotional intimacy department.

TFG - I too still struggle with *who is this man that's been living with me for 4+ years?*. It does wear you down trying to figure it out.

Since the last A, I've learned that he has not been honest with me since we met. Either by directly lying right to my face, not sharing feelings or holding anger, disagreement, disappointments inside. H hasn't been honest with anyone...including himself.

Throw in alcoholism for even more confusion since alcoholics are selfish, self-centered, self-serving...*all about me* all of the time.

It pretty much appears that H did what he wanted and what made him feel good with little regard to me or our family.

Now that H has been going to IC and AA, I'm starting to *meet* the real H. Since it feels like I'm really just starting to get to know him, I'm moving forward cautiously. H wants to renew our wedding vows sometime soon. I want to wait and see how recovery continues to go before I do it. It may seem silly since I'm already married to him, but since I was *fooled* already (big time) for almost eight years, I want to be sure I know who I'm renewing vows with.

Keep posting and let us know how you are doing.

Do you think you'll start going to IC?

sss

Boy, it's nice to know I'm not alone.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Ok, not NICE to know it, but at least I don't feel so crazy either.

I read so much on this site, and see so many people recovering, and I wonder if it's just me, that I was wrong for not being able to start trusting my STBX again.

But the more I find out, the more I realize that I was married to a man I never REALLY knew for 10 years, because he lied, deceived, and hid so much of his true self from me.

And no alcohol involved - though I must say that with some of the money issues (fortunately, we had kept most of our finances separate, and I'm not getting hurt a lot by it,) my mom and others have seriously suspected drug use. No proof of that, but sometimes, the way he looks and acts when I do see him, I could easily believe it.

But, even though he still holds to only one affair, and it took months for him to admit it was PA and not just EA, I know there were at least two other EAs, and that he was doing personals on line for years now.

But a lot of this is making some sense to me. Because I wondered how he kept all this hidden for so long, and then suddenly decided that this one is THE one he was leaving me for.

But I'm beginning to think that he is in love with falling in love - you know, that feeling you have the first few years - and doesn't know how to develop the deeper kind of love you need in a marriage. And the difference with the last one? Well, when he married me, is it going to sound weird that what I'm seeing is that he married a cross between his mother and himself? as far as looks go, I mean? And the woman he's with now? When I tried to get from him what was wrong, what was missing, and what I could do to fix things, the only concrete things I could get were that my hair used to be a lighter blond (like the OWs) and my hair was kind of curly when we met (like the OWs) and that she looks a lot like I did when he first met me. The personality is nothing the same, but the only excuses I could get is she looks like I used to.

So he wanted a younger version of me, in looks, and WHO I am and WHO she is don't matter? And the younger version of me looks a lot like his mom (with a little of him thrown in?) Does all this seem really weird to anyone else?

To get back to the original topic, though, since I don't want to thread-jack here.... Does this sound like serial cheating to you all? I too looked for information on serial cheaters, and could find very little. But I know that at one point, the OW had kicked him out, he moved back in on a Thursday, and on Monday he had a new ad out on an internet personals site.

I would love to understand about serial cheaters more too, because in some ways I feel like I gave up fairly early on in the process, but all I could see were signs that I was going to be living a life of one affair after the other if I let him come home. Even our minister, who was doing our counseling, seemed to be encouraging me that I would not be doing wrong by seeking a divorce. And our church does NOT take divorce lightly - reconciliation is almost always the goal.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">penguin

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think serial cheaters are probably the hardest ones to change.

With an addict you know where to attack what to try and solve.

With some research on a predator you can identify the sexual or childhood issues the predator has.

Neither are easy to rehabilitate but at least you know what to try and do and what has worked in similar situations.

What do you do with an attention defecit spouse?
There is no libido retalin that can be taken.

Very interesting that your spouse's exit affair involved a woman very similar to you. Wouldn't surprise me if his casual affairs involved women nothing like you.

SDFR

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think serial cheaters are probably the hardest ones to change. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think the hardest part is probably getting the serial cheater to realize there is a problem. Then it probably depends on their age...how long they have lived with this behavior.

My H has been dealing with low self-esteem likely due to being abandoned by his mother at age 12. Mother moved across the State, remarried and had three more kids that she raised to adulthood. H didn't really see his monther much after she left. He felt like it was his fault his mother left, she wasn't there when she needed, a lot of anger...how could she just leave him, his brother and just have three more kids like that, etc.

Although he has a lot of work to do, he seems better already just identifying all of this. He seems to be coming around much faster than I thought he would.

Just some additional thoughts.

sss

My FWH admits he has a problem with low self-esteem. You wouldn't guess it if you knew him because he appears outgoing and friendly. I have been talking to him about boundaries and he admits he never established boundaries to protect his first marriage or ours. He said it was not because he didn't know how -- it was because he didn't want to. He said he was looking out for "number one." He is a major flirt, likes to compliment the ladies, and says it is easier for him to talk to women than to men.

I have great concern that things won't change. He says he has changed and will not be unfaithful again. I'm afraid that will last until he has the next opportunity for an A and unfortunately, neither of us will know for sure until that happens. Then, and only then, will we know how he reacts.

The appearance of the other women reminds me of those TV programs about serial murders where the victims' pictures are put on the wall and they are all similar in appearance. Is there a psychological reason that "serial" anybodies -- cheaters, murderers, rapists, etc., all have victim profiles that they unconsciously follow?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">he appearance of the other women reminds me of those TV programs about serial murders where the victims' pictures are put on the wall and they are all similar in appearance. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do any of these women resemble what his mother might have looked like at that same age?