I know i am not suppose to but this one situation where meeting OW actually did me good. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

WS actually arrange the meeting for me. I told him i want to confront OW and if she refuse to meet me than i will make havoc at the office where she works. It was a gamble making that threat especially since i am in Plan A and going to Plan B by end of the week. But i just knew i had to see OW and ask her why is she doing all this. This is just something i know in my heart that i needed to do or i will go on wondering.

We were supposed to meet at a coffee bean outlet but we did not end up there. I was still in the car reading the questions that i wanted to ask her when she pulled up on the opposite parking lot. She did not see me so i had to call her to let her know i was there. And you know what the fist thing she said??? She said OOOHhhh hiiii! like i was some kind of an old time friend.

I asked why is she doing this? No answer. I asked her what she wants with my H? No answer but eyes got a bit teary. I told her how much all this is hurting me and my DD. I told her i wanted to save my marriage and i want her to stop contact with WS. She said she did tell WS to stop contact etc etc. I told her if that is the case then why is she still meeting him.

The best part is when she said she is willing to end A and all contact as long as she gets to stay to work at office because she likes working there. She is also willing to give her home address and contact no so i can tell her parents about the A as a guarantee if she breaks her promise of NC. She said she does not want to resign. I told her she has to resign.

She is inmature and still childish. I do not know what WS see in her.

Anyway WS was waiting for me at home and want to know the story. I told him i feel soooooo much better after seeing OW. i am 101% better than her and if WS decides to go for her than by all means go. I also told him that she does not care for him and does not love him much at all. I told him from my conversation, she is very inmature and only care about her career than anything else.

The only thing i can say now is that i feel so much better after meeting OW. She is nothing compared to me. Nothing close!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> If WS wants to go to her and risk everything...i am willing to let him go because i now know definately that their fantasy will explode one fine day.

I am going ahead with my plan B by end of the week. I am not going to take the risk of pulling back now although he has expressed to me that the fog is lifting. I want a complete and total commitment from him and nothing less.

Female age 36 WS-age 36
Known 18 years Married 7 years
DD age 5
OW - 20/unmarried
8/sep/03 - Dday
22/sep/03 - Dday
17/0ct/03 - Dday
28/Dec/03 - Dday
29/Dec/03 - Dday & Told him to move out.
15/1/04 - Plan A
23/1/04 - Expose A & waiting to see what will happen next

Okay, the fog is back again.

He told me he needed to see OW tonight. Insisted that he needed to find out her opinion about our conversation this afternoon.

And me being the BS, tried to stop him by convincing all sort of reasons and he being the WS, dug his feet even deeper and eventually i told him go and see her.

I really feel like giving him that Plan B letter tonight when he comes home.

Should I? Only reason why i am still here and not giving him that letter because i wanted to end it in a good way. You know nice evening together so he can remember me that way.

Like they say...u confront the OW and u think u won and WS end up running to her to comfort her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

At least i am not going nuts with crazy thoughts because i know i am better than OW.

Nevermind i stick it out until sunday. To save the marriage i will end it in a good way so he can remember me that i am the good loving wife.

zizzy

Question what is the resigning part all about? Is the WS her boss?

No, WS is not her boss. They work in different department.

When i finally found out who OW was, i told WS that they cannot work together. Someone has to leave. No way WS can leave because the big boss will not let him coz he is on senior manager level. OW is only a junior executive. I insisted that she has to leave or i will blow the A all over the office. I don't know if and when i will do that. I still do not know if i really want to do that. At the moment only one other senior manager knows about the A and she is a friend of ours.

<small>[ February 05, 2004, 06:53 AM: Message edited by: zizzycool ]</small>

Ziggy:

I'm finding it hard to continue to help you.

Do you see yourself as following the MB principles?

It is not part of the Plans to confront the OW.

In my opinion, you are not following a strategy that will lead to recovering your marriage.

Please regroup and stop this if you want to reconcile.

It is crazy for your WS to get you involved in this triangle. He seems to be getting some sick pleasure from this and you are going along with it.

I certainly can't witness this. I feel so sorry for you or maybe this is OK with you. I can't understand this.

zizzy

If you go ahead with this idea of forcing her to resign then (pulling out my 2 X 4) you have lost it.

Do you want to make her filthy rich and unemploy your husband?

This is a sexual harrassment case bigtime.

1) He is a senior member of management. He of all people has NO excuse for becoming involved with the help.

2) Two he is clearly higher up in the company hierarchy....that makes him her superior whether they work in the same department or not. His position means he could influence her career positive or negative.

3) He is married...apparently she is not. Tends to support the view he pursued her not the other way around.

4) She is younger than him....all the makings of an older married man taking advantage of a young single gullible girl....or in your very own words child.

5) She fears for her job...oh my how a lawyer would love this part. She loves her job, wants to keep her job, then along comes this married senior member of management pressuring her for sexual favors.

Go ahead and make her rich because I can promise you if she is let go there will be serious legal ramifications.

zizzy

Look at what you posted. He is a senior member she a junior executive. She is childlike he is an older married man. She was willing to end the affair wanted to save her job. He runs to her despite your protest.

Does it really look like she is the agressor in this affair? Or does it look like he is the controlling person in this? Be honest and look at it objectively. If she is so childlike then its pretty clear he can influence her behavior much more than she can influence him.

The answer to ending an affair is not making the OP stop it but having your WS stop it and clearly he is not ready or willing to do that. So please don't do anything crazy like getting someone fired because your husband had an affair with him.

In my opinion it is time for Plan B. Your H is just like mine. He claims he wants to save the marriage, but is still addicted to OW. Let him go to her, and give him Plan B letter.

My concern is that if you let this go on and on, you will deplete your love bank, and soon may feel like you don't even want to try.

Hang in there and stay on the MB plan. I know all of this is miserable, but things will get better. And have H move out of the house. He is the one breaking up the marriage - tell him to go.

stunned dad,

I am STUNNED!!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

you said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you go ahead with this idea of forcing her to resign then (pulling out my 2 X 4) you have lost it.

Do you want to make her filthy rich and unemploy your husband?

This is a sexual harrassment case bigtime.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What does SHE want??? EXCUSE me???? She wants her marriage....and you know what? The finacial liablity...one that was CAUSED by the actions of these two affair partners....is NOT paramount to saving this marriage. Exposure is a necessary....and one of the most successful parts of plan A. Just call Harley...and he'll tell ya to "put it on the evening news" Will it make a mess at the office? Could it potentially cost a bundle? Could he lose his job??? You darned right....and it's not zizzy's fault. It's their fault. It's also the natural consequence of boinking one of your underlings.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1) He is a senior member of management. He of all people has NO excuse for becoming involved with the help.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right! So why are you making this zizzy feel guilty about exposure????

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2) Two he is clearly higher up in the company hierarchy....that makes him her superior whether they work in the same department or not. His position means he could influence her career positive or negative.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right again.....and there are consequences for this kind of exploitation. Instead....seems like zizzy is the ONLY one being punished.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">3) He is married...apparently she is not. Tends to support the view he pursued her not the other way around.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ditto

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">4) She is younger than him....all the makings of an older married man taking advantage of a young single gullible girl....or in your very own words child.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Undoubtedly....but you'd save him the consequences of this too....and make zizzy an enabler by remaining silent....why?????

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">5) She fears for her job...oh my how a lawyer would love this part. She loves her job, wants to keep her job, then along comes this married senior member of management pressuring her for sexual favors.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How is this zizzy's fault? And how does remaining silent end this affair....even if exposure DOES line the lawyer's pocket...so does divorce chere.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Go ahead and make her rich because I can promise you if she is let go there will be serious legal ramifications.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Go ahead and make zizzy an enabler of the affair because you've got her so scared to death to expose this...that she may not use the strategies that work.

Zizzy....don't buy into this. Not for one second.

<small>[ February 05, 2004, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am going ahead with my plan B by end of the week. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do not go to Plan B before you complete Plan A - which includes exposure. It is not your job to protect your H from the ramifications of his own actions; indeed, doing so enables the affair to continue. I think the last thing you want to do is enable his affair.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you want to make her filthy rich and unemploy your husband?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SHE would not be the one doing that. They did this themselves. It is not the BS's place to protect the WS from feeling the consequences of their decision - FAR FAR FAR from it. I'm speechless as to why it is her duty to protect him because he decided to stoop a woman from his own office.

So he may not have a job. GOOD! He's supposed to get another job so he no longer has contact with the OW. They cannot recover otherwise.

*stunned_Takola_taking_long_time_to_recover*

<small>[ February 05, 2004, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

star

I am saying you can't cut your nose off in spite of your face.

zizzy will not do her or her spouse any good by demanding the resignation of her spouse's mistress.

This is what she wants. She wants payback. Payback via her husbands position of power. Payback only necessary because her husbands actions.

star no offense but what level of training do you have on sexual harrassment and federal laws pertaining to that issue?

I can tell you right out that her husband's affair is a personal matter. The use of her husband's status as a senior management to dismiss his mistress soley on the basis of a sexual relationship IS A CUT AND DRY VIOLATION OF FEDERAL LAW!

Do you get it. Are you willing to have her husband dismissed, his company sued and his career more than likely blackballed.

Understand this if the OW is dismissed solely because she was involved with a member of senior management and her husband is not dismissed as well federal law has been broken...do you grasp the ramifications of this? This is not job related and this is not being enforced in an equitable manner. This is blatant sexism and there will be consequences that extend beyond zizzy control.

zizzy is not seeking merely exposure within the company she wants the OW fired or forced to resign...get it?

This has nothing to do with MB concepts. This has nothing to do with Harley's concept of exposing an affair. This has everything to do with violating the law.

Read again star:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I told her she has to resign.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">zizzy has no place in deciding this women's employment. And if her husband's complies with her wishes the law will have been broken plain and simple.

I wanted my marriage. And the first reaction for most betrayed husbands is the beat the living snot out of the OP. Would you support me breaking the law in the name of wanting my marriage back?

Read again I am dealing soley with her desire to have the OP fired.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Someone has to leave. No way WS can leave because the big boss will not let him coz he is on senior manager level. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See what I mean?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you get it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah I think I DO *shaking head*. I would have had to live under a rock to have missed the rash of sexual harrassments suits that have rocked this country. Clinton's antics actually helped all of us understand it better too. We learned from Paula Jones that the prime ingredient in sexual harassment is that the advances are unwanted and not consensual, even if they happened a while ago. We learned from Monica Lewinsky that consensual affairs do not constitute sexual harassment. Linda Tripp taught us that gathering evidence is a good idea...tapes work really well. And finally, Kathleen Wiley demonstrated that you don't even have to work for someone to claim sexual harrassment.

Sexual Harrassment violates the Title VII of the Civil Rights Act. You don't have to be a legal eagle to "get it" either....even us girls and southerners can wrap our wee minds around it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

So......I really really really do...(really) understand this statement of yours:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can tell you right out that her husband's affair is a personal matter. The use of her husband's status as a senior management to dismiss his mistress soley on the basis of a sexual relationship IS A CUT AND DRY VIOLATION OF FEDERAL LAW!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And you are right...zizzy cannot expect to get this OW to resign unless she also is willing to risk her husband's career....or THAT would be against the law. Exposing the affair is not against the law though. And consensual affairs do not constitute sexual harassment. In order for it to be sexual harassment, there must have been some coercion by her husband to try to force the OW to submit to sexual overtures or to a sexual relationship. And the OW still has to PROVE it. Oh chance are...that she would claim "hostile environment" or some such nonsense....especially if she were the only one fired! And her being the "jr" and all that would sure help.

But:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Are you willing to have her husband dismissed, his company sued and his career more than likely blackballed.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ME???? MOI??? Wouldn't a better question be "Is HE willing to risk his whole career???" I didn't boink his jr. exec. If he's so worried about his career and his company....hey maybe he shouldn't have unzipped his pants at the office. Or maybe he ought to end the affair on his own now that his wife knows instead of continuing it right in front of her eyes!!!! But if you're asking me if I think saving his job is worth risking their marriage....the answer is "not for a second".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> zizzy is not seeking merely exposure within the company she wants the OW fired or forced to resign...get it?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How many times must you ask that? Of course I get it. And I agree with you....zizzy can't have it both ways. If she tries to force the OW to resign while attempting to salvage her H's career...it is AGAINST the law. I'm not suggesting she do that. What I AM suggesting is that his career won't matter very much if her marriage and her family is destroyed. In fact, who do you think will get the most benefit from that career if the affair continues? It won't be zizzy....it will be the OW. Exposure... not threats to this woman will end the affair...and yes...that means her H's career could very well go straight down the toilet.....but her marriage will go straight down the toilet if her husband can't let go of this relationship too. Not to mention that divorce is pretty costly. He's the one that exposed his company to liability...by HIS ACTIONS. zizzy isn't responsible for that.

I can see that you are mainly concerned with her unilateral interest, possible vindictiveness....AND UNLAWFUL attempt to get this girl fired (while preserving her H's position)...and you're right about that. Exposure cannot be unilaterally applied...and yes there is a great risk in harming her husband's career...a risk HE took. Their marriage can survive a job change, financial difficulty....but it cannot recover without an end to the affair.

I want OW to resign but you know and i know that is still her decision and no one else can force her.

But i thought if i expose the A completely in the office MAYBE that will force her to resign because i can guarantee she will not feel so great working there anymore knowing that EVERYONE knows. At the moment only one senior manager knows about the A. It is still unexpose!!!

And yes, i am not afraid about WS resigning himself. I think if he does then we can move and start somewhere else. But i don't think the office will allow him to resign because just last year he did resign to join another company and they almost beg him to come back and counter offer him with a big nice increment and promotion. I am pretty confident they WILL NOT let him go.

So here i am stuck in the mud. She will not resign that is the impression i get from meeting her yesterday. I have not made major exposure yet because i thought to give FACE for the OW to leave on her own. But now it looks like she is NOT going to leave. So what do i do?????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Expose or stay quiet.

Now the latest update...i LB big time last night after he came home from meeting her last night...broke all rules of plan A because he said OW told him to make the decision to stay with me or leave me and she will wait for him if he choose to leave me!!! My love bank is depleting very very fast. I am disgusted with him. I cannot tell whether i still love him anymore or hate him.

Then this afternoon he told me he had lunch with OW and he got the cheek to say at least he is being honest about it!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> That really made the love bank go to almost zero. He is a monster.I cannot imagine leaving with this person one minute longer!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

After all this..here comes the GOOD news...i hope Melody is reading this. I found OW home address. Now i get to expose A to her parents. I plan to do that tomorrow. Wish me luck.

And another good news. Manage to persuade WS to see a priest for counseling tomorrow.

This is my plan...give me your opinion

Expose A in office big time
Expose A to OW parents
Do a good Plan A for the next two nights
Do Plan B on Sunday night.

zizzycool

Again, why can't your H resign. People do it all the time. If "HE" is serious about the M and wanting it then he should resign and both of you move elsewhere. If she will not go then he should.

As for your plan, exposing the A is a way of ending it. Sure why not expose it. As for Plan A, that you have to decide to protect what Love remains. Just make sure your plans and letter are ready. You do have someone that can be a go between?

<small>[ February 06, 2004, 06:30 AM: Message edited by: Silverthorn ]</small>

zizzy,

Be prepared for all the consequences of exposure in this case...and do not be surprised that even though your H is a valuable employee that he will have to resign. Legally, the company will be too vulnerable if they do not let him go as well....no matter how big of a raise they just gave him....THAT is the reality.

Good to hear you have her home address...why not use that exposure first, and THEN if it yields no results go full exposure at the office.

You are not ready for Plan B. And plan B should be done with a good marriage coach or counselor...so call the Harleys or Penny. You said yourself that you LBed all over the place....so this is NOT the time to move to Plan B....until you do a flawless Plan A, or you can't protect your love for him any longer, or he leaves and moves in with the OW....stay in A. You must be an attractive alternative to the affair....and when you are LBing....you aren't. It's very difficult at a time like this, NOT to react badly...but one of the things that is absolutely essential.

zizzy

I support your decision to expose. I just want you to do so with the full knowledge of the possible fallout.

His job is not more important than your marriage and I did not mean to imply it was.

If exposing the affair to her parents doesn't produce results then you might have to expose it in the workplace as well.

Hey star

Sorry for the heated exchange so to speak...your Southern? Please tell me you aren't from Georgia if so there goes the neighborhood! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I was in zizzy shoes. I could have had the OP fired. There last get together was a major convention in New Orleans. His regional office rejected his request to have his expenses covered since it was out of his territory. He went anyway and while there talked the company president into picking up his tab. No small amount close to $2000 worth of expenses between hotel, airfare and meals.

Certain the company president wouldn't have been too happy to be duped like that. Plus I had the names of two female employees he had also had affairs with. Topping it off his company lost my wife's account when all this came to light with her boss. She dumped them for defendable business reasons but reasons under normal circumstances would not have resulted in them losing he account.

Problem was I couldn't do it without risking my own wife's job as well. While all her get togethers were legit travel reasons I would be willing to bet the after hour activities probably violated some obscure moral turpitude clause in her contract.

So even setting whether its legal or not, its not in zizzy's best interest to risk getting her husband canned. Getting your wayward spouse fired probably would qualify as a love buster don't you think? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

"His job is not more important than your marriage and I did not mean to imply it was."

"So even setting whether its legal or not, its not in zizzy's best interest to risk getting her husband canned. Getting your wayward spouse fired probably would qualify as a love buster don't you think? "

Huh?

IMO it's pretty straight forward what her course of action should be...If her main objective is to save the marriage, she should expose it for all to see, per Harley's advice. From what I've read and experienced, putting the truth out there will most likely shorten the life of the A. If her main objective is to preserve her husbands job (and allow the A to continue in secrecy), she should keep silent.

Expose, yes.
Insist that OW be fired, no.

Hey, *I'm* from GA, the neighborhood is just fine, thank you very much!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I don't think anybody is opposed to her exposing the affair in his place of employment if it comes to that.

What I am opposed to is her demanding the OW be fired because she believes her husband will not be let go.

I can promise you if she choses to obtain legal counsel after her discharge (should it happen) that company will dismiss zizzy's husband in a NY minute in order to protect itself from the fallout.

Two different issues here...exposing the affair and demanding the firing.

I do however want zizzy to recognize that as long as just one senior member of management knows about this then it can be swept under the rug. But if everyone in the company knows about it and IF it violates company policy or the rules in the employee handbook his bosses will be caught between a rock and a hard place.

Most companies I am familiar with place the burden of not becoming involve with the help on the higher up member of management not the junior execs.

She needs to have her eyes open. Her rage (justified as it may) is her motivating force here and she is not (nor would any betrayed spouse in her shoes)able to look at this objectively.

Given the continued downsizing of upper management jobs I would hate some years down the road for the zizzy family to not be able to send a daughter or son to the college of their choice or retire comfortably because dad lost his good job years ago over an in office affair.

"Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through hell. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure."

-Dr Harley

Stunned- Not to split hairs here, but regardless of her motivation, the A should be exposed. Should she demand that the OW be fired? I don't think so and further, I don't see how she could.

But you seem to be suggesting that she should consider not revealing the A on the chance things can be worked out without revealing. Bad decision IMO, because not revealing runs counter to what should be the number one priority...ending the A. Zizzy will be doing very well to work through this without getting a divorce, so worries about her husband losing a job or how to pay for a kids education are secondary.

<small>[ February 06, 2004, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: litchfield ]</small>