Hi all,

Well, its been a week or so since I've been here. I thought things were going so well between me and my H. We have been having a wonderful week. I was feeling such promise and hope. There were no arguements, no LB (on my part), and a lot of closeness. I felt like my H was really making an effort. I knew he and the OW would possibly see eachother yesterday and he told me he would call me to let me know if she was there and if she was he would just drop off what he needed to and then come home. If she wasn't there, he would stay to volunteer. He called me and said everything was fine, she wasn't there (I know he was telling the truth because I could have easily checked and he knew I just might do that).

He has been responding so well to all of my notes and encouraging words and telling me that they are really helping him. I was feeling hopeful that Plan A was working well (I know Mel, I should be in Plan B).

Well this morning he had to send her some information via email and he let me know. No problem. A little while later, I noticed him coming out of the garage with the phone in his hand. RED FLAG. He acted like he was calling our voice mail and started commenting on calling so and so back.

I went into his office and asked him if he had made any contact with the OW that I should know about. He thought about what to say for a minute and then said, "Yes, I did call her to let her know I had sent all the information." He said he didn't want to tell me because we had been getting along so well and he didn't want to spoil it. And since he was going out of town today, he didn't want to leave on a bad note.

THEN WHY THE "H*** DID HE CALL HER???? Since when do you have to call someone to see if they got your email? I knew there was another reason. Anyway, I didn't LB. I handled it in a very calm manner and accepted his response. I told him thank you for admitting it, but I needed him to be honest with me and tell me things before he does them. I told him that it is the LIES AND SECRETS that hurt me more than anything. He apologized. He held me and told me to please believe him that he is not going to hurt me. BUT HE IS!!!!! Why doesn't he understand that?? Like a fool, I found comfort in his arms, I saw love in his eyes, and I believed him.

So, a little while later, after helping him to pack, I kissed him goodbye (he's off on training for work). He was in a rush because he said he had to be there by 5. It was about 11:15 (his trip is about 4 hours away).

After he left, suspicion began to rise. I decided to go by the OW's house to be sure he wasn't there. He wasn't and oddly she wasn't either, although I noticed her boys playing in the backyard. I decided to check her work. No sign of their cars there either. So, I felt okay. As I was driving back home, mind you this is about 1 hour AFTER he had left. Guess who I see turning from the street where his storage unit is? My H!!! I couldn't believe it. He was still in town. He saw me too and as he turned, his shock caused him to hit the curb. He called me immediately and said, "Was that you?" I stayed calm, all the while knowing that he had probably just left her. He questioned me as to why I was there. I said, "The question is why are YOU still here?" He became very defensive and angry that I was implying something. He said angrily that he had to get gas and stop by his storage unit for some things that his boss had asked for. I didn't think that should take one hour or more. As we talked, I headed back to the OW's house and whom do you think was pulling back in to the neighborhood? Too coincidental. I was still on the phone with him and I asked, "Are you sure you didn't just meet ___?" He got super angry and adamantly denied it. He told me to call her if I wanted to. Yeah, like she'd really admit it. I remained calm and said I didn't plan on calling her. I told him I am suspicious because he continues to hide things from me.

He called me back a few minutes later and apologized. I accepted it and explained to him why I was checking up on him.

Its obvious to me that he can't let her go. I've printed out some Plan B letters to help me write my own.

I am pleased with how I'm keeping myself together. I owe it it God. Without my faith in Him, I would be in utter despair. The pain is so deep, but I know I will be okay. I thank all of you for your support and advice. I've grown a lot in the past few months, for the better.

I hope my H will come out of the fog.

<small>[ February 10, 2004, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: nid ]</small>

bump

Your WH sounds just like mine. I fell into the trap of believing him too but my suspicion was always there.

I think the clue is as long as he gets angry with your snooping or your spying...it means it is a BIG RED flag that he is STILL having the A with OW.

Get on with your next plan if you think you have done a good plan A....there is nothing else to help WH but a good Plan B. You can go on and on with plan A until the it suck you all dry but still the A will not end. I think you will know when Plan B is up. I started to hate and loose my respect for WH and that was when i knew i have to go to Plan B.

I am in my 2nd day of plan B.

nid, it sounds like your husband is the typical cake eater. He gives you just enough to keep you holding on and believing in him, but then is keeping the OW on the side too. Yes, it looks like plan B is in order. Let's see how well he functions when you quit meeting your part of his emotional needs.

Did you expose before Plan B, Zizzy? I am feeling the need to do so, yet I hesitate.

I keep saying, if he hides something one more time, then I'm going to Plan B. I obviously haven't done it yet. I've discovered at least three times that he's hidden something from me, and every time I get suckered back in with the
"I didn't tell you because I didn't want you to get upset. You know I wouldn't hurt you."

He insists it is only a friendship although he admits to having feelings for her. Everyone here at MB says its most likely gone to a PA. I know he won't admit to that. Should I hire a PI and find out? I need to know the truth! Not that it would make a difference, but it would just help to know ALL the details. I need to know where the lies begin and end, you know?

Dear Nid

I know the pain of each discovery and the way our H are able to smooth it over with their words and affection. I kept my head buried in the sand for 11 months. I didn't want to acknowledge what was really happening. It's called denial. If you're interested click on my name and go to view recent posts. I spent from Nov '02 to Oct '03 finding proof of C with OW and my H was soooooo good at covering himself. If you look up gullible in the dictionary my picture is there.

I know how it hurts to have spent "good" time together and feel so hopeful for the future only to have it crash into dispair when you find out about C. I still am unable to fathom how he could look me in the eyes and lie so well.

I wish I had hired a PI. It would have made all our suffering shorter. I hear the hesitation in your voice and I see myself. I hoped that if I held out a little longer he would finally "see the light". Ultimately he didn't until I reached the point where I was ready to leave. I mean I was really ready. It wasn't a scare tactit on my part. I cound't take anymore lies. BUT, I had to get to that point and it took me 11 months. I can say now that I wish I had done it sooner, but you can only deal with where you are right now.

Go back and view a few of my old posts. I received so much good advice from others who don't post here so much anymore.

I understand your desire to know the truth. It's somthing we need so badly and at this point your H is so deep in the fog, he doesn't know what is true.

Look at it this way. If you knew that it had gone to a physical A, would you feel differently? Do not expect him to tell you the truth. He is addicted to her right now and wants you both.

My H told me he couldn't choose between us. He wanted us both. He later told me that it wasn't until I forced him to choose (told him the Kids and I were moving back to the US)that he finally decided to end it with her. And that is huge. He had to decide that's what he wanted. I had to let him go. I was ready to do just that.

Are you ready for that? Have you reached that point? Do not go to Plan B until you mean it. Plan B is to preseve the love that you have for him. It's to let him see how his life would be without you.

Bless you and your son. This is the hardest thing I've ever dealth with.

MK

Yes nid...i expose it to family and friends. Then when i found out that OW work at the same place as WS i expose it to one colleague at the office. Later WS made my life easier by confinding in another colleague so that makes two colleague who knows. I think it is a matter of time that everyone knows.

Then i expose A to other OW parents too.

Since i have gone to plan B i don't know what has happened so far on that side. I sure relish the thought that OW is getting big time scolding from mom and dad. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You must expose the affair. It helps to end the fantasy that they are in faster.

Don't go into denial that everything is okay. Get a PI if you can afford it. I think it is worth every penny to know the truth.

I was in your position for two months thinking everything has ended. I thought i was in recovery. He was nice and loving. He did not go out so often but the withdrawn look was there. You see nid, they have found other ways of hiding and lying to us. They get clever too. And we the BS...goes into this mode that we don't want to know anymore and everything is okay BUT IT IS NOT. If your intuition is telling you something is not right...it is usually right.
Female age 36 WS-age 36
Known 18 years Married 7 years
DD age 5
OW - 20/unmarried
8/sep/03 - Dday
22/sep/03 - Dday & expose to family & friends
17/0ct/03 - Dday
29/Dec/03 - Dday & Told him to move out.
15/1/04 - Plan A
23/1/04 - Expose A at Office
6/2/04 Expose A to OW parents
8/2/04 Plan B

<small>[ February 09, 2004, 05:49 AM: Message edited by: zizzycool ]</small>

Thanks for your advice everyone. So, I should get solid evidence first before moving to Plan B? I can't really prove that he was with her, although I know in my heart he was. Still, I feel I must have solid, undisputable proof before I jump the gun. There is always the minutest of possibilities that he wasn't with her. I would hate to destroy what we have been building the past few weeks. Please someone else advise.

<small>[ February 10, 2004, 12:43 AM: Message edited by: nid ]</small>

I remember when I was suspecting for months and months without full evidence. It was extremely frustrating to be where you are now. I felt awfully gullible and foolish after I finally decided that the evidence was overwelming. He even had lame excuses for going well over his minutes talking to her on his cell phone which I tried to believe in my months of initial denial.

If you can afford it, go ahead and hire a PI. Do not trust your husbands words, trust your intuition. From my experience...which is extensive now, you are right, it is probably a full blown A and most likely a PA.

Your gut tells you more now than his denial. His excuse about the storage unit and her just getting home right after that is really confirmation enough that your intuition, instinct, and gut isn't lying to you: he is. If you don't have the money to afford a PI, then go ahead and inform and go to Plan B. It sounds like you've done a good plan A.

nid - you have all the "proof" you need.

But, you can't Plan B until he moves out. You cannot Plan B under the same roof.

I agree with the others above that he's a typical cake eater, fence sitter, waffle king.

It sounds like you're doing well with being calm and not LB'ing - other than the LBs that come with snooping.

Did you have a session with Steve Harley?

Now, where are you on exposing it?

I suggest you STOP snooping. You have nothing to gain and further LBs to lose. ASSUME he's in contact until (1) you expose the affair to ALL, (2) He either commits to counseling or moves out, AND, if he doesn't move out, (3) he writes a no contact letter. Period. If he moves out - immediate Plan B and change the locks.

nid - you have to play hard ball, I believe. You are in control, you have the power of knowledge on your side, and you have a good team here. Seize the power you have.

WAT

Thanks for responding WAT. No, I haven't had a session with Steve Harley.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now, where are you on exposing it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So far, my one close friend knows and has helped me a great deal spiritually, so I don't fall completely apart. And I've told a mutual friend of ours who is busting at the seams to let it be known. What I'm thinking of doing is telling our friend who is the president of the board they're on together. This work they do is a big organization for boys, and hence families. The idea that two of the members are participating in the destruction of two families is despicable. I think our friend would agree and ask them BOTH to step down.

The thought of doing that kills me because I know it will devastate my H. He has worked so hard to be admired and respected and this will shatter all of that. I know it is his own doing, but how can I be a party to that?

I've already told her H and am thinking of calling him tonight so he can tell her parents. Who else should I tell?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I suggest you STOP snooping. You have nothing to gain and further LBs to lose. ASSUME he's in contact until (1) you expose the affair to ALL, (2) He either commits to counseling or moves out, AND, if he doesn't move out, (3) he writes a no contact letter. Period. If he moves out - immediate Plan B and change the locks.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I snoop because I have been so deceived and I will go insane if I don't KNOW FOR SURE. He says he understands my snooping and suspicions.

So, I should expose and then ask him to commit to C and write a NC letter or move out? If I expose I can guarantee almost 100% that he won't commit to anything and won't be coming back. I know him well. What if I just ask him to commit to C and write a NC letter and quit the board. IF he is unwilling to do this, I will ask him to leave and begin Plan B. If this happens, I know the word will get out and the A will be exposed and not by me.

When he called me tonight, he asked how I was doing and I told him I am still disturbed about yesterday. I told him I have so many suspicions and have a hard time believing him. He said, "I know how you feel. But you don't have to worry because I'm here okay?" That doesn't change the fact that he was, I'm 99% sure, with her YESTERDAY! And how do I know she's not going to go have a rendezvous with him this weekend?? He said he can't come home this weekend (Valentine's Day). My instincts tell me he can't come because she'll be there. I've thought about taking a road trip myself. . .I NEED TO SEE WITH MY OWN TWO EYES exactly what is going on even if everything points to the obvious. Is that understandable???

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nid:
He's attracted to her ability to communicate with him, validate him, and admire him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

nid - see what you wrote?

He's attracted to her because she satisfies his ENs. Take advantage of this lab rat. Think of it as an experiment you can capitalize on.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know WAT <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I've been trying, believe me. And I realized the other day, I've been doing that for 6 months or so, BUT HE COULDN'T SEE IT because he was and is in THE FOG. All my efforts have been for naught! Although lately, he has been acknowledging my efforts, a lot. Is the fog lifting, maybe just a little?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He has worked so hard to be admired and respected and this will shatter all of that. I know it is his own doing, but how can I be a party to that?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You ALREADY are a party to that and by not exposing the affair, you are perpetuating it.

I know this is tough, nid. But I think you're taking a HUGE gamble by not exposing it. You're gambling that someone else will expose it or it'll die on its own.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And I've told a mutual friend of ours who is busting at the seams to let it be known. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why do you think he/she is "busting" to do so? Because it HAS to happen!! Will he/she do the dirty work for you???

I don't think you need to tell multiple people - just the ones who are closest to your H and are the most influential and who are the one(s) he most doesn't want to know. Reminder: the purpose of exposing the affair is to remove the secrecy - not to enact vengence. The goal still is restoring your marriage. If the goal was to embarass your H and cause the most humility, then you should be taking out a billboard and a full page ad in the Sunday paper. Get it? This needs to be a surgical strike - not carpet bombing.

One step at a time.

I recommend you expose it and see what happens. Request OW's H to expose it as well.

Your H will either cease or continue. If he ceases, then ease him into counseling with the expectation of a NC letter. But first you'll be dealing with withdrawal. If the same happens on OW's side, all the better. If he continues, you attempt to get him to move out and then Plan B.

None of this is easy. But the alternative is you file for divorce, bleed him dry, and start over. Which do you want to try first? I thought so.

I apologize if I'm sounding cold and not compassionate. But I went thru the really hard stuff and I have little patience for WSs who cannot see what they're doing. You must stay squarely atop the moral high ground and no matter what happens - in the end you will know you did the right things, as I do.

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> don't think you need to tell multiple people - just the ones who are closest to your H and are the most influential and who are the one(s) he most doesn't want to know. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So do you think our friend who is the president of the board would be someone to tell? I'm not sure if I could trust him not to go around and tell EVERYONE, you know, all the gossipy wives. I don't think his family would be the ones to tell because he isn't close to them. What about his friends? Maybe they already know. What about another woman on the board who admires all the time and work he has done for the organization? How do I make this decision? Its overwhelming.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I apologize if I'm sounding cold and not compassionate. But I went thru the really hard stuff and I have little patience for WSs who cannot see what they're doing. You must stay squarely atop the moral high ground and no matter what happens - in the end you will know you did the right things, as I do.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think you're being cold WAT. I feel like I need a kick in the pants to get the nerve to do this. I feel like I'm being stringed along, just enough hope given to me, until he decides if he wants me or not. That is too painful to endure. I'm stronger now, I think I'm ready to make the next step. We'll see. . .

Nid,
I just had to post to you. Mary Kat and I have been down the same road. Listen to your gut. Get some proof that he can not dispute and make you feel guilty for doubting him. I went for a long time in denial of my H's affair and subsequent contact, even after I did two Plan B's! She really had a hold on him, and believe me I did an excellent Plan A prior to the Plan B's. The last Plan B I moved out of state with our daughter and lived with my parents for three months!! We counseled with Steve Harley and he claimed to have ended it, but did not stick to NC. In fact, they continued to have phone conversations for a year after I moved back home! So I know how it hurts--like hell! Stand firm. Read When the Man You Love is a Liar (think that's the title) there is a step by step for confronting your H with his lies. I think your gut is correct--he saw her and I bet they have a plan for Valentine's Day too.

Get your proof. Inform OW's H and ask him to talk with their family members. Speak to his family. If he won't agree to NC and the plan to stop all contact, then you go to plan B. I suggest counseling with Steve Harley as well. He knows what he is talking about.

Hang in there. My prayers are with you to stay strong and keep walking to path to fight for your M. Believe me, when they are in the A they are capable of amazing deception and selfishness. It doesn't mean he doesn't love you and also want the M, he just wants his "high" too. Have you read SAA front to back? These things really follow a script.

Thanks Anne. I saw Mary Kat's post on another thread, and I thought it was mine!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Have you read SAA front to back? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I haven't read it. But I think I will go buy it. Does it talk about EAs? That's all my H will admit to, but I think its more. He doesn't think an EA is as painful as a PA. I think it is, if not more so. How do you get past your H's emotional attachmant to another W? I feel like any time I make a mistake, he compares me to her. How easy it is to talk to her, how much they have to say and share. Every time I look at a freakin' cell phone, I want to crush it. Every time I see that my H talks to me for 1-5 minutes, and her for up to 182 (yes, over 3 hrs) at a time, my heart begins to break into pieces.

Dear Nid

IMVHO I think an EM is worse than a PA. My H is in withdrawal and having a hard, hard time. I'm not sure we'll make it. I know he's trying, but maybe he just won't be able to stay away from her. If he had had just a one night stand, this would be much easier (I think).

I often think back on the "what if's". I wish I had hired a PI when he went to CA on a business trip and met with her. That would have saved a few months of pain.

If it were me, I'd rent a different car this weekend and take a drive. Maybe WAT is right to stop the spying. All of this is such gut instincts. But, there's nothing like seeing reality with your own 2 eyes to give you the jolt you need. It's so easy (and less painful in the moment) to sit back and hope that it will sort itself out.

You don't have to confront them if you catch them together. If you can stop yourself. Just to see "Just to know".

I know how you feel about the phone calls. Just a few days ago my H had a business trip for a few nights. He calls and we talk just a short while. He told me that he will call me but he just doesn't have a lot to say. Calls a 2/3 times per day but we only talk a few minutes. Says he doesn't know what to talk about.

I'm biting my tongue with the "well you sure had a lot to say to her when you were calling her all the time" They could talk for quite a while. Yeah, It hurts.

How do you deal with it? Time, time, time.

Read SAA it deals with EA. Another good book for us was "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass.

Take care

MK

Just a quick post as I try to get my son out of bed and ready for school........ Talk about a challenge!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nid:
<strong>So do you think our friend who is the president of the board would be someone to tell? I'm not sure if I could trust him not to go around and tell EVERYONE, you know, all the gossipy wives.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If this board would be embarassed by their behavior or if this board espouses values that contradict adultery - by all means tell the President. Then you have to let the cards fall where they may. Don't ask him to keep it a secret and keep in mind your telling the President of the board - not your friend. All the gossipy wives may go into overdrive - which is EXACTLY what needs to happen.

If he has no close family then this may be your only exposure route. I suggest you not expose to other friends to avoid putting them in a position to take sides - they may choose "not to get involved." HOWEVER, if asked by a friend what's going on, and a question like this is within the "sphere" of your friendship, TELL THE TRUTH!! In all cases, do not lie to cover the affair. It's not your secret.

Now, when you finally do this, we all here can almost 100% guarantee that your H will be madder than mad, livid, ranting and raving mad about what you have done. You WILL BE public enemy number one. You will immediately become responsible for everything suddenly going wrong in his life. You have to be prepared for this and you CANNOT lose your composure or apologize or crumble at his anger. He will project ALL of the wrongdoing on to you. Understand? I say this not to scare you from taking this necessary step, but to try to prepare you for what will likely happen. I hope others weigh in here to support what I'm saying.

But there's always a chance he may crumble and crawl into a fetal position and suddenly see the light. But for hard core romantic affairs, this doesn't happen very often.

I was unaware you hadn't read SAA. Please read it, I think you'll see yourself and your H inside it.

WAT

I saw a bit of a light go off in my H when I had him read some chapters in SAA as he was deciding whether to end his A from a year ago. He wasn't as seriously attached to that one as he was to the one that ended in 1998. It took him moving in with that OW and her kids for a couple of months to get the bubble to burst and him to finally end that A. That was after a couple of false separations and false recoveries.

It baffled me that he started another A after that awful experience. In the last case he was pursued and he succumbed to the tempatation. He really didn't understand that he can't allow himself to have women as friends. He fell right back into keeping that 'friendship' a secret and letting an EA build to a PA; he knew I wouldn't approve of the friendship to begin with: that it could be a deal breaker. He enjoyed the high/addiction of the illicit relationship. The excitement/fun of it all. He likes the light easy banter as well as being a good listener and being put on a pedestal. All fantasy.

I agree: expose to the president.

It does help to have concrete proof. It is very hard to not snoop until you get the proof. But, I believe you have enough evidence of a serious EA to not be sure yourself and be out of denial. I understand WAT saying to stop snooping. I think that is for your own well being. I know it really gets the adrenalin going when out trying to catch them. I was never successful. My H would park in her garage and they put cardboard over all the windows/doors of the garage.

If you have the cell phone records that is enough proof. My husband tried to excuse away hours of conversation but is was all lies. No one needs to talk to anyone who isn't a spouse on a cell pnone as longs as they talked. There is no good excuse. It is not okay.

I really feel for you.

Thanks WAT and 4give. I may be seeing the board president tonight at my son's basketball practice. I will ask him if we can talk. It makes me nervous though. I don't know if I'm ready for the explosion. I may hire the PI first, get the proof, then expose. Oh, how I wish I was wrong. Oh, how I wish this was just a nightmare. Oh, how I wish I had done things differently long ago. But, I cannot change the past. I can only change the here and now.

Last night my H asked me how he is supposed to just erase all his pain and hurt from our marriage that has led him to this point. I told him I can't change our past, but I can change today. I have changed. I have been making efforts for almost 7 months now. My efforts don't matter to him, only the past. He says it may be too late.

I've tried to get him to understand that we are BOTH responsible for the state of our M. He insists he has made efforts, more than me. He refuses to acknowledge the fact that in his efforts to work on our M, he was belittling me and never letting me live down my past regressions. THAT is why I couldn't talk to him. That is why I walked away. Every time we talked he drove the stake in a little deeper. I was tired of feeling like an evil person.

Sorry, I'm rambling.

I think I will be able to handle the consequences if I expose this. Will exposure hurt my son? I know he's already hurt by this, but really what are the possible effects on him?