I am so hurt! I am sitting hear crying as I type this. H and I had a disagreement last night. I, for how I approached it am partly to blame. I just get SO frustrated sometimes. It seems we act as a team until we get around other people.. Then it seems he is on the other side and I am alone. Sometimes things we have discussed (boundaries) get thrown aside. I don't feel heard, then it all gets bottled up and I get frustrated, then I blow with one strong remark. Sometimes mean, angry, or attacking.. (Not literally, but that is how he feels)

Regardless of what it was about, he got angry and walked away. Probably better than an actual fight. But, we went to bed angry and not speaking. He got up this morning and gave me a peck and said goodbye. I asked if we were going to talk.. he said not this morning.. and left. No hug, No I love you nothing..

Well, years of this went on in our M before the separation. He would usually say one hurtful short line and leave for the day. My punishment. All of that hurt came flooding back this morning. I feel so guilty for my part in it. (Last nights disagreement) But, I don't feel guilty for what I was trying to say. We both had had a couple of drinks, and I know that played into it as well. I called his phone and left a message that leaving as he did hurt more than anything else. That I can't put that in a compartment for the day, I will carry it all day. That I wished he would have hugged me and told me he loved me. And that I loved him.

I hate hurting like this.. It is so hard not to put my wall up again.. That is how I got through many years of our M. Now with my heart open to him, he can hurt me so easily. And I know I can be too sensative too, but it still hurts. Some times I just feel like giving up and just say "do what you want" and not work so hard.

<small>[ February 09, 2004, 07:51 AM: Message edited by: sohard ]</small>

Without knowing the nature of your disagreement with your H, you may want to consider apologizing to him your part in the argument. I found through personal experience that even when I apologize for some perceived hurt I might have caused to another person (who may be the one at fault), I'm much more likely to have that person come back later and return the apology (even though that is not my intention). Old habits are hard to break and going back to business as usual will only put you back to the way you were prior to your affair. It only takes one spouse to change things for the better not only for the marriage but for his/her own self as well. So please don't let this pothole on the bumpy road to marital recovery unravel all your resolve to make your marriage into a happier and healthier one. Oh, and speaking as a 20 year recovering alcoholic (I'm 45), please stay off the booze.

<small>[ February 09, 2004, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

sohard what are your real options....

Do you really think feeling nothing so that you don't feel any hurt is a lifestyle you want?

Perhaps MC to address the fact you both are hurting each other might be the way to go.

sohard,

If possible, could the two of you set some boundaries on when you will discuss things. My lovely wife and I had this problem too. We found that discussing things before or during work was not working for us at all. I agree with TMCM...no alcohol while engaged in relationship talk.

Putting up walls is the esiest thing to do. It is natural and comfortable, no risk involved or that scary vunerability thing. I'll reiterrate what TMCM said again. You can't change your H but you can be a catalyst for his change. When you change, or do things differently, the relationship also changes.

Giving up and doing what you want might go a long way in explaining why things are like they are. IMVHO...that's the reason most of us are here. Either because of our own "wants" or our spouses.

God Bless

thanks too much coffee..

I just feel SO defeated! I will appologize, I just get so defeated always having to be the one to appologize. Always having to be the one to try and smooth things over. If I loose my temper and get angry, then I pay. Seems when he does we work through it better. I know that things I need or want are normal, that I am not asking too much. I know this from MC and books we have read. But, sometimes it is so hard for H to give it. To get "outside" his box, and I just get defeated, and he feels he can never do enough! I know I need patience, but I also know there are certain boundaries that I just won't give into.

Just saw the other two posts..

I am glad I posted, as I do see the other side of some of this and I thank you for that..

One.. you are right, there should be a boundary about not talking about r when ANY drinks are involved.. I didn't do that, I should have.

Two, I meant let him do what he wants not me. Seems I am the "drag" who wants us to stick to the boundaries we preset, not him. Regardless, dumb statement, I will work harder..

We are in MC, go weekly. Are working on these things. I did most obviously approach this one wrong last night!! I will appoligize to H for that!

No, I don't want to go thru life feeling nothing, I will work harder to keep the wall down. I will not run from the work, I will work harder..

Thanks again for helping me to see another side to this!

I just talked to H and appologized for how I approached him last night. He is very angry with me,not just how I approached it, but how I felt.

O.K. as small as this seems, it is a small
example of lots of our problems..I will list the facts and please let me know how you would handle..

Went snowmobiling with H and kids yesterday. Another guy friend of ours and kids went too. We had already discussed the weekend before that I didn't feel safe and wouldn't go across lakes or rivers that weren't marked trails. (This really scares me and my daughter who rides her own)

As we were getting ready to leave. Helmets on sleds started, I asked H where we were headed. He tells me up the river and over this one lake to get to whereever. I asked if there were marked trails.. He said no. I asked if we could get there by marked trails he said yes. I again said I didn't feel safe doing that could be take the trails.. He said yes. When his friend asked why we weren't going across the lake he said because She doesn't want to. Not "we" nothing like that. If I wouldn't have ASKED him where we were going, we would have ended up going across the lake.. (someone just went thru like a week ago) I really felt like he was just pressuring me to go with the added pressure of his friend. He doesn't understand why I would be upset about this.

What would you do? How would you handle..

Okay...I'll bite...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We had already discussed the weekend before that I didn't feel safe and wouldn't go across lakes or rivers that weren't marked trails. (This really scares me and my daughter who rides her own) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Didja POJA? Did HE enthusiastically agree to this compromise? Or was it something you told him you wouldn't do because you don't feel safe in doing so? And then you assumed you had reached an agreement not to do it?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As we were getting ready to leave.... I asked H where we were headed. He tells me up the river and over this one lake to get to wherever. I again said I didn't feel safe doing that could be take the trails.. He said yes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...and this is why I ask about POJA! Because you didn't remind him of YOUR agreement. You ASKED him something which he then agreed to do (again, I suspect).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When his friend asked why we weren't going across the lake he said because She doesn't want to. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well...that's the truth isn't it? If he didn't agree but was going along with you, then he's telling the literal truth: we are not going that way because she doesn't want to.

Hmmmm...what could you do...

You could thank him (enthusiastically) for respecting your fears about safety, casually bring up the fact about the lake (looking off in the distance say: "hey, isn't that the same lake that someone just went through and died in last week?"),

You could give him a big and hug and kiss and say: "You are fantastic for caring so much about our daughter's safety and teaching her to respect safe snowmobiling practices!"

You get my drift.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He doesn't understand why I would be upset about this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I'll go out on a limb here. Did you feel that he was playing to the audience? (ie. he and his friend "against" you.) Was it perhaps the tone he used, implying that there was something...oh, I don't know...like a killjoy about you? That you were some safety freak of nature?

If so, when your S makes a derogatory comment to someone else about you (or something you feel is derogatory), then you should raise it with them later...calmly! Without DJs too!

Be honest about how you feel: "Honey, when you told Larry earlier about my wanting to go a different route, I felt crummy. Perhaps in future you could discuss a disagreement with me first so that I don't feel like we're arguing in front of our friends. What do you think about doing that?"

(I don't know...Star*fish does so much better than I do at finding that lovely non-DJ way to express how you feel without any judgement on THEIR motivations.)

Anyhow...you get the picture. Be honest, talk about how you feel, not what you think he did. Every statement starts with &#8220;I feel&#8230;&#8221; and be careful that you are not substituting &#8220;I feel&#8221; for &#8220;I think&#8221; (ie. &#8220;I feel you were making fun of me.&#8221;)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I really felt like he was just pressuring me to go with the added pressure of his friend </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...that's what you THINK he did. That's a DJ. Instead reframe how you react to your H and respond differently to him in future. Over time, you will see a difference in how he reacts/responds to you too. Actually, over time I suspect you&#8217;ll actually think differently about him too! (Those DJs also hurt the love you have for him.)

That's how you change the communication between you. Over time.

And since I get the feeling you are saying: why me? Why always me?

Because it is worth it to you. From TMCM:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Old habits are hard to break and going back to business as usual will only put you back to the way you were prior to your affair. It only takes one spouse to change things for the better not only for the marriage but for his/her own self as well. So please don't let this pothole on the bumpy road to marital recovery unravel all your resolve to make your marriage into a happier and healthier one. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To that I would add: to give your daughter (other kids?) a great example of a loving, committed M...of how two people can lovingly resolve/accept conflict between them...how two people can be united even in disagreement... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Hey...I&#8217;m with ya sohard!!! This is so hard to do...

Take a deep breath, each and every time you get frustrated/hurt/annoyed/angry/resentful...if you can't calm down, leave the room...do not talk about it when you are upset...learn to listen inside you, to realize when you&#8217;ve truly reached the point of calm, where you can talk reasonably about something that is hurting you without LBing.

And here's the kicker...learn to listen too! As much as you don't feel he's understanding you, you are not understanding him either.

He told the truth (I'm guessing) that it WAS your idea. So just let it pass. Sure you'd prefer he didn't single you out...but just let it go. I bet he doesn't want his friend to think he's a "wuss" for not taking the manly daredevil action of going across a potential death trap...sure you and I think that's nuts...but he doesn't. That's the real point.

Just like you want him to understand you...you need to understand him. Respect that.

Does this help or just piss you off? awed

<small>[ February 09, 2004, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

awed.. It does help.. I do try and understand him, I really do... Some HUGE road blocks for me..

We are trying to overcome a relationship where he DID manipulate things and do things in order to get his way... (confirmed by he and MC)

I DO WANT this relationship to work. I do not want to go back to old habbits. I was gulty (again this insight gained from MC) of allowing his behavior. Of allowing his minipulation to get what he wanted. So in some of the things I am suppose to do i.e. your suggestions and MB principles is also what got me into the trouble in the realtionship to begin with.

Sure, I could take on the responsibilty for this. I could say we didn't have a joint agreement when in fact I believe we did. I did mention that someone had gone through the lake. I did thank him for a good day and I do encourage him a lot!

But, the truth remains based experiences with him, that he did indeed withhold the information
about going over the lakes so that he could buldoze me into doing what he wanted.

OH, I need to sleep on all this.. I am so sad sometimes I just don't know what to do.

sohard...gosh I didn't mean to make you sad... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> you seem to be sad enough without any additional help! Look I'll try again...what would be helpful? It seems that perhaps different tactics or approaches between your MC and MB may be part of the problem.

First off, I'm confused...I thought you were looking for input on what YOU can do to change the dynamics between you? I thought that was what you were asking for...otherwise I would not have been so blunt.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So in some of the things I am suppose to do i.e. your suggestions and MB principles is also what got me into the trouble in the realtionship to begin with </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think there may be a little misunderstanding here of the MB principles. Certainly I am not suggesting that you "enable" bad behaviour. Again, I thought you were asking what you could do differently.

Are you really asking what can HE do differently? Does he post here? Has he asked??? If not, then there's nothing anyone can tell you about what he can do differently. People can only make suggestions to the one who's asking.

You're asking, he's not. Bud, you can't do a darn thing to change someone who doesn't want to change.

That said, I live with someone who was defiant about not changing and yet...he is. He is because I changed the dynamics between us. So don't give up! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> It can happen. But it will take time...that much I can guarantee you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I was gulty (again this insight gained from MC) of allowing his behavior. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I sincerely hope that your MC is not suggesting that making DJs (ie. telling him what you assume he is doing) is going to be helpful! DJs are a very poor form of communication.

In my previous posting, I pointed out that:
a) there's a time and place for good communication
b) DJs are not part of good communication
c) talking about how you FEEL, honestly and calmly is part of good communication

How does any of that add up to "allowing" his behaviour???

What exactly is your MC telling you that you are doing to "allow" his behaviour? And what do you see in my post or MB principles that equates to this?

Does your MC focus on good communication? Or assigning blame? Do they want to rake up the past? Or focus on the future between you?

Okay...here some more bluntness...not to make you cry...but to get to the bottom of WHAT WILL HELP YOU.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It seems we act as a team until we get around other people.. Then it seems he is on the other side and I am alone. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These are your feelings...it "seems" to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sometimes things we have discussed (boundaries) get thrown aside. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Boundaries are yours. If they are thrown aside, you are the one doing the throwing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't feel heard, then it all gets bottled up and I get frustrated, then I blow with one strong remark. Sometimes mean, angry, or attacking.. (Not literally, but that is how he feels) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is the bad communication. If your MC is suggesting that you are enabling, then you need to establish boundaries and enforce them. That does not mean you need to yell and get angry.

The two things are not the same at all. And in fact, the more you yell and get angry, the less your H will listen to you, the less communicating you are doing.

So if your MC wants you to stick up for yourself, then GOOD communication skills will only help you to do so.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sure, I could take on the responsibilty for this. I could say we didn't have a joint agreement when in fact I believe we did. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not asking you to take on responsibility for anything other than what YOU do and what YOU say...the choices YOU make.

I pointed out the DJs in what you were saying to your H. That ranting (or crying) are not likely to effectively get your point across. That sometimes you need to change the dynamic first, for some time, before the dynamic will change between you both.

You believe you had a joint agreement? Then why not ask him about that? Why ask...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I again said I didn't feel safe doing that could be take the trails.. He said yes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...and you didn't answer my question about POJA. That could easily be why you think you agreed and he doesn't think you did.

Again...communication. Not boundaries.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But, the truth remains based experiences with him, that he did indeed withhold the information
about going over the lakes so that he could buldoze me into doing what he wanted. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again...I am confused. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> How did he bulldoze you into doing what he wanted? I thought you DIDN'T go over the lake? Wasn't the problem that you didn't like what he said to his friend???

sohard...if you have the energy, please write back. Sad isn't good. Hopeless isn't good. Let's try and get you re-focussed so that you feel energized instead!

awed

<small>[ February 09, 2004, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

I can understand why you are upset. I'm sure I would have felt the same way. The problem is, people don't usually change bad behaviors because it is logically explained to them "this is bad, and here's why". They are more apt to change if the bad behavior isn't rewarded anymore.

So as tough as it is, I think your best bet right now is stick to your guns, and don't let him weasel out of agreements. He will try to manipulate you, because his old ways just feel right to him and the new ways don't. But if the old way no longer works, because you stand up for yourself and refuse to let his comments get to you, he will find it feels better to change. Think about it-does he want his friend to see him as a hen pecked husband whose wife orders him around? Might it not occur to him over time that saying, "Since we have our daughter with us, I agreed to stick to marked trails" makes him sound like less of a wuss than "because She doesn't want to" does?

I know this from my own experience-your H is not the real problem. The real problem is that part of you that sides with your H, that whispers, "Don't be a killjoy" instead of saying, "Good girl-at least one of you is sensible." If you could retrain that part of you, you'd be able to respond to the "Because She doesn't want to" comments with something like, "That's why he married me-because I'm the one with the common sense, and he's the one with the good looks."

Thanks awed and eslph,

I am better today.. You are both right. I know what you both say is true. I am working through a lot of what you say.

H came home last night and we talked calmly and quietly. I asked "Did we have an agreement about marked trails and lakes before we went?" He said "yes". I then asked why if we had the agreement he was then just going to go ahead and do it. I just think after you discuss an issue.. again calmly and rationally and come to an agreement then that is what you both should stick to. He then added "well, I guess our ideas of marked trails are different".. So, this is the communication we deal with. He is great at deverting and blocking and turning and never dealing with the plan at hand.

Then (another incident that day) Our son who is just learning the ride. We let him ride once and awhile during the day. H was ahead of son and took off across the lake at about 70 mph. I was behind son and had no way of slowing him down. He was down on the plowed path and H was up on the snowbank. H didnt even notice son passing a parked truck going that fast. Or that son had gotten up on the snowbank with him. AGAIN, we have talked and talked about slowing down. H appologized for not thinking that son would go as fast as him. Again, things we discussed before we went, heck we even talked about it in mc. My H is reckless, I realize that. He loves to do everything fast, crazy, and wild. Fine, he can do that. But, I refuse to let myself or one of my kids get hurt by his recklessness.

He said he is tired of these small things ruining the day. I said I had a great day, these were concerns during the day, but I didn't let them ruin the day. The day was ruined when I tried to talk to him about my concerns. The day was ruined because of our REACTION to these things. I asked him what he needed from me. How can I ask about my concerns and talk to him?

He responded that he doesn't know if he can ever make me happy. That my expectations are too high. That he has and will always disappoint or frustrate me. And that snowmobiling is just not worth the effort any more.

I stated that it is not up to him to make me happy. That it is not the expectations that concerned me that day, but issues we had discussed before hand that were not followed through on. That he needed to decide that everything we do in our M IS worth the effort. That I was sorry for how he felt. That I realized he is frustrated. That I get frustrated and defeated too. See, I come here and vent about giving up, or whatever. But, I don't say that to him.

I know this all may seem small, but it is just one of many, many things we deal with on a almost daily basis. I just feel kind of snowed by him some times. While we were separated he would say I will do anything for you, I will change anything for us and our M. Now, I constantly get reminded of his great sacrifices, some of which are just not being abusive. I WANT to do things for him, I want to work twards that great relationship, and it honestly feels like he fights me every step of the way. I already feel that just in the three months we have been back together that I am starting to lose the self-esteem I gained back while apart, and am starting to lose part of myself again. And it took a year of separation and C for me alone to get that back.

Again, I am NOT giving up! I do and will take the advice you have given me and continue to make the changes I need.

Bye the way the MC says as you do, that I need to approach things the way you have discussed. Two things happen..(and have been discussed in MC)

1. H doesn't hear me. I say "please slow down" he does for a little while and then I say it again, this goes on for a bit and then I say "SLOW DOWN" Than H hears me and gets angry. we both are aware of this and are working on it. (Not just slow down, that was just an example)

2. No matter how I approach him with a hurt or whatever, he feels he has failed and then gets angry and defensive. So, I am working on approaching him more kindly and he is working on not getting angry and defensive.

Awed you are right this is hard work. Some days are better than others, and I do have to remind myself daily of the positive changes he has made. I do need to focus on those too and as the MC says... BE patient with H.. He (MC) has said he can't guarentee he will get there, but he has come a long way and really seems to want to. A lot has to be in prayer and faith!

Thanks again for your input! It is greatly appreciated!

Hey...thank you too!

First: I loved elspeth's take on this...re-training yourself and your little whispering voice...I think she's quite correct and unfortunately a lot of women have this "problem". Gosh if we could just manage to find the balance between caretaking (looking after others, seeing the bigger picture, etc.) and the care for self (which so often manifests into selfishness, aka your H and mine!)...we'd be swinging from the rafters!!!

Second: I'm on the same journey as you sohard, in a lot of ways...I recognize a lot of what you wrote...the "dance" you two do...how exacting a toll this unhealthy interaction takes on you...how much you want it to change...for him to stick to what he says...instead of saying he can't do it...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> That he has and will always disappoint or frustrate me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...man! Have I heard THAT one before! Or as I said to someone yesterday...he'll tell me I'm "better" than he is...isn't that a nice cop-out...hmmmm?

Post/vent...get it off your chest...then knuckle back down and see what happens over time...it takes so long to change bad habits...

I felt so badly yesterday because I truly thought that what I'd offered was the kind of "correct my thinking" input you were seeking...I really appreciate ANY opportunity to practice POJA/communication in other people's lives because it is much easier than in my own! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Seriously though, the practice helps me when I need to do it in my M. Does that make sense to you?

By using your example where I have absolutely no emotional investment, I can see where you (ie. the wonderful, patient, loving spouse <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) could do an even better job and thereby reduce his reflexive crappy response (anger, resentment, sullenness, acting out, etc.), or better put: not contribute to it so that the ownership clearly belongs to him. (He is, after all, the only one that can choose to change HIS response.)

This strengthens me in two ways: helps me see new ways to respond to frustrating situations, despite my emotional engagement in at the time; helps me to know that this is a common dynamic between men and women which I find oddly soothing.

This gives me the patience and fortitude to:
a) take that breath again rather than give up...
b) prevent myself from engaging in the same old dance again and stick to these new principles...
c) stop myself from giving in and demanding "SLOW DOWN" as a shortcut to getting what I want, rather than setting the boundary, and firmly and calmly enforcing it.

So...thank you!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> awed

oh now, that's funny...you read my post about being "better"! Okay...so we have that in common too... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> anyway sometimes it is strange to me when I read some of these posts, even though I was the WS I can relate so well with what a lot of BS feel of their WS. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't find it strange at all. Although JL finds this funny (and it is of course), the thing I first said when I came here was that my H didn't want me to be any different...the only complaint he had was that I was mad all the time! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

But the reason I was mad was because of years of unmet needs. I had tried everything...and, as in your M, if I yelled, I was heard. I HATED this dynamic...I was ripping my hair out. I felt like I'd tried everything. And my H refused to go to M counselling (of course he did...turned out he was in the midst of an A which lasted 1.5 years...)

The other thing sohard: I had an EA several years ago, although I didn't know it was one at the time. It stopped before becoming a PA but from my extensive reading about A's, I can now see it would definitely have been an exit A. Something in me pulled back though at the last moment...I realized I wanted to try one more time to work on my M, or leave it cleanly. I decided I didn't want to have an A as a means to an end.

I can't tell you how I managed to process that logically through my deep unhappiness at the time...but I did.

And that's why I subsequently got so angry with my H...because of this "sacrifice" of mine, which went unheralded (of course it did, I never told him I'd come close to having an A???), I felt even more abused and martyred in the M.

Anyhow...now that we've processed through his A, we have to address the underlying issues of the M just like you two. It doesn't matter who's the WS and who's the BS. We are simply H and W with bad M habits who are now trying to change them for good.

You and I? We need to find endless patience and set clear boundaries...and live our lives...and accept total responsibility for our own happiness.

Them? They need to decide what they want to do...and then do it. No more excuses...no more hiding behind the W's reaction...it's down to the crunch.

Anyhow...hang in there. You've got a lot in common with us BS folks because of your unmet needs in the M. We're all in this together you know...we're all learning...so please don't feel like you have to have some sort of greater guilt on these boards because you are a WS...you are honestly trying to make your M work. And that's what we ALL want to see in our M partners...awed

Check out this website

Passive-Aggresive Traits

Sohard,

Just a bit of encouragement. Your H's behavior reminds me so much of myself even as recent as one year ago. I ended up going into IC then to address communication issues and now I could not dream of treating my W that way again. I'm still not perfect but it is possible to change.

JGNC.

Hey StillHere...

Many of those traits describe men in A...actually Dr. Harley describes a lot of those traits throughout his stories...

So is an A, by nature, passive-aggressive? Does an A bring out passive-aggressive tendencies?

This is the funny part. If you read how to deal with a passive-aggressive man, much of it is the same as the communication approach advocated here at MB!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> PART B:

Educate yourself - knowledge is power.....

Let them know when they have said or done something hurtful, use "I feel..."

If they say something absurd - repeat it back to them, "So what you are saying..." This lets you retain your power and control....

Remember revealing the importance of your wants/needs may only backfire on you.

Realize they want a strong reaction from you so the focus will be off of them and on your anger ... stay calm

When you see/feel a "game" coming on.... walk away, stop the conversation, do whatever it takes not to become involved in the game. Remember that their goal is to manipulate and control you and the situation.

When it is a matter of importance, stay calm and rational, tell them what the consequences of their actions will be, stick to your guns.....

They function under intense fear....

Some of what they do is not deliberate - but most of what they do is.

Change can only occur if the p.a. recognizes that THEY have a problem and seek professional help. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ February 10, 2004, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

That is so true awed. So many men (and ladies) have many of these same characteristics during their fog.

My H was an exception, he actually outgrew many of these traits while he was in the A. He became more honest...even telling me he was going out with a friend one night (just not telling me the whole truth). She was a good influence on him...which is still hurtful, because I think if he was able to do it for her, why couldn't he do it for me?

But the rest of the time...this is what I've had to deal with.

H and I have talked about P-A and how he obfuscates situations. I've talked with him about situations that he would usually pout or throw a temper tantrum (when he feels forced) ahead of time and I tell him what I will do if he exhibits that behavior. It has seemed to help. I have also, in a very kind way, told him when I thought he was being evasive...

What used to be an average conversation...

Me: How you doing?
Him: Fine.
silence
Me: Anything else?
Him: No, just fine
Me: Tell me more...
Him: What do you want me to say? (getting irritated)

How it works now..

Me: Hey, what's up?
Him: Nothing
Me: Really? Sounds boring
Him: Not really, I'm just thinking
Me: I know, I know, you'll tell me if it was important to me. Want to hear about my day?
Him: (Sure/not now later)

When I first read the website I sent him an email telling him the jig was up...I knew about him...and I wasn't going to take it anymore.

For the next few weeks I would be very direct if I thought he was going to frustrate a situation. He really tried to change his behavior, that helped, and I had to walk away from many a situation. There were many conversations where he would try every trick in the book to

Change the subject
Say "I love you"
"What do you want me to say?"
"I don't know"
"Whatever you want, I don't care"

In one conversation he used them all, and I would say to him...you are changing the subject...Or I love you too, but I still want to know(where you want to go for vacation)...etc.

P-A's manipulate the situation behind everyone's back because sometimes they lack the confidence, or don't feel they have the strength to get what they want without having to use dirty tricks...it's what they learned. Like your H blaming you for the snowmobile safety issue, his worst nightmare is probably getting made fun of by his friend, he'd rather risk his M than risk his self.

It helped me think of my H as human again...there was a tactical reason he was doing all this...it wasn't because he was mean, but because he was protecting himself.

Well... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> actually I've thread-jacked a bit by responding to you StillHere...I thought what you posted was interesting though because it fit in with A behaviour hand in glove...it had not occurred to me before now: the A itself could be seen as a passive aggressive action against the M and/or BS...certainly many of the behaviours match.

Anyhow, it's sohard's H that's the snowmobiling guy, and the fog he's in is of his own making!

sohard: what do you think? Is your H p-a? Does the description of a p-a fit? (further down the page from the list of traits) Has your MC described him as one?

Although my H has a couple of those traits described, the description itself doesn't fit him at all, nor did the counsellor see him that way (although he was characterized as a conflict-avoider...so many labels, so little time to read up on them all!).

Now my brother is an absolute classic p-a...I am well familiar with dealing with a p-a!!! (The silence...the silence...)...awed

My H definatly has those traits..

It is funny though, he on the outside seems so dominant, loud, and self confident, but what I have learned thru MC is he really has low self esteem, and gets hurt easily. Just that he reacts with anger, control, and dominance when hurt or feeling insecure.

The MC hasn't labled him, just that he was verbally, and emotionally abusive and selfish. (That sounds just terrible doesn't it) I was labeled and enabler and people pleaser. The verbal stuff has pretty much subsided, now we are working hard on the communication. I liked the list you set. That is pretty much what MC has said. Helps to see it stated out like that. One thing MC has said is "Don't let him dump it (the issue) back in your lap" Hard to do sometimes, but I know what he meant. (He does say these things to H, he doesn't pull any punches with him)

I know I have to control my reaction to H. As sad as it is, when I snap or yell in response to something he says.. It is like DARN he won and then I just feel bad for my reaction. Then the problem at hand has been lost.

Thanks again for all the insight...