</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you could give me more info on this I'd greatly appreciate. I'd like to discuss with you futher what effect my past might have had on things. Right now I dont really see much of a connection except the fact that I KNOW I did NOT want anything physical to happen with OM. Why I let it happen? No idea. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You wanted to ask questions in your other thread so I decided to open up a new one just for those questions.

Right now I dont really see much of a connection except the fact that I KNOW I did NOT want anything physical to happen with OM.

Well the connections are many. You said after your rape you felt dirty. You chose to withdraw ie not to tell anyone or report.

What happens in an affair like yours? You are pressured to have sex after you allow things to get too close....not let me share something with you odds are he knew exactly what he was doing you weren't let him get to close he was just easing in until the timing was right. Immediately you felt dirty. Immediately your first instinct was to not tell.

See the connection? You responded to the affair the same way you responded to the rape or at least in a similar way.

Now the main question is unlike the rape which was involuntary you did have to take an active part in getting into a situation where having to say or not say no became an issue.

I strongly recommend you get a copy of The Sexual Healing Journey. There are some surveys in their that ask you various questions regarding your attitudes towards a number of topics that seem completely unrelated to sexual relationships. They will tie it all in later in the book. See how you stack up on the early surveys and then lets talk some more.

In the mean time I can reply to other questions you have in that area on this thread.

<small>[ February 09, 2004, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: stunned-dad-fast recovering ]</small>

Thanks so much for opening a new thread for me!

I missed your post earlier when I checked mine, so sorry for the delayed response.

I will pick up that book ASAP. We don't have much of a book store here on base, and being in Japan, I doubt that off base bookstores would be of much use to me! =) I'll order from Amazon or something but you'll have to wait a few weeks for me to get it. Such is military life.

I agree that the OM knew exactly what he was doing. Looking back, he was very manipulative. He's got a BS is psychology, which I think he used to "get" me with the conversation and support. He also has a prior history of incidents where a teenage girl said he had sex with her, he denied it and got out of it. I'm 19. I don't know if I mentioned that before.

I've gotten a lot of grief over getting married so young and I think I was afraid that no one would help thinking I'm too young to understand or something like that.

My mom calls the OM a "preditor" Looking back I see that is true.

As far as similarities, I'm not sure. I think being as stupid as I was, he would have drawn me in whether or not I had the past history I do.

(Why can't I say the word.. I know what it is, what happened to me, I know there's a word for it, but I can't seem to get myself to say it. Even when I told my husband I couldn't say it. Any thoughts?)

Well I think that's all for now, I'm off to shop at Amazon.com =) I'll be looking forward to hearing from you!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MilWifeFW:
<strong> Thanks so much for opening a new thread for me!

I missed your post earlier when I checked mine, so sorry for the delayed response.

I will pick up that book ASAP. We don't have much of a book store here on base, and being in Japan, I doubt that off base bookstores would be of much use to me! =) I'll order from Amazon or something but you'll have to wait a few weeks for me to get it. Such is military life.

I agree that the OM knew exactly what he was doing. Looking back, he was very manipulative. He's got a BS is psychology, which I think he used to "get" me with the conversation and support. He also has a prior history of incidents where a teenage girl said he had sex with her, he denied it and got out of it. I'm 19. I don't know if I mentioned that before.

I've gotten a lot of grief over getting married so young and I think I was afraid that no one would help thinking I'm too young to understand or something like that.

My mom calls the OM a "preditor" Looking back I see that is true.

As far as similarities, I'm not sure. I think being as stupid as I was, he would have drawn me in whether or not I had the past history I do.

(Why can't I say the word.. I know what it is, what happened to me, I know there's a word for it, but I can't seem to get myself to say it. Even when I told my husband I couldn't say it. Any thoughts?)

Well I think that's all for now, I'm off to shop at Amazon.com =) I'll be looking forward to hearing from you! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MilWifeFW, I'm so sorry to hear your story...my W is young as well (just turned 22) and was raped by a first cousin when she was 13-14...she has somehow blocked it all out of her mind...that cousin of hers used to live with her family and molest her when she came back from school for a period of 2 years before she had the courage to tell her parents...I don't know how much of that has to do with her EA right now but I know that somehow made her go out with the wrong sort of men.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> MilWifeFW, I'm so sorry to hear your story...my W is young as well (just turned 22) and was raped by a first cousin when she was 13-14...she has somehow blocked it all out of her mind...that cousin of hers used to live with her family and molest her when she came back from school for a period of 2 years before she had the courage to tell her parents...I don't know how much of that has to do with her EA right now but I know that somehow made her go out with the wrong sort of men</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ironbeast - so sorry to hear about that!!!!! I suppose I'm lucky in the respect that the abuse was a one time, stranger situation. I can not imagine...

I don't mean to confuse. In my first reply to SDRF, the OM I was talking about was the man I had an affair with. It was only about a month prior to entering the affair that I was .... by a different man. so I guess he'll be OM#2? Or perhaps I'll call the affair man Michael, and the OM, OM, as I do not know his name.. Hmm.. I'll decide that later as I'm confusing myself now =) Hope I haven't lost anyone in my babbling..

OT - have either of you, or anyone you know attended a marriage builder weekend? H has some leave coming up and there's one in April, I'm considering it

Wowser...my wife's OM's name was Michael. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Mil

First I have been to MB Weekender. I highly recommend it. Whether you learn nothing at all from it I still recommend anything that has the both of you working on your marriage even if its a weekend seminar on pottery. Doing things together is what helps you reconnect.

Now to some specifics.

You say you don't see how one thing is related to the other.

Lets talk about victimization more specific having a "victim's" mindset.

You assumed a passive role and victim's role when you did not report your rape. Why?

Being passive isn't someone instinctly does its something one has learned to do.

So where did you "learn" to be passive in the face of a sexual assault? If assaulted by a purse snatcher you would fight back and as he ran away with your purse you would call the police.

So why was your behavior different when sexually assaulted....don't answer this I just want you start thinking for now.

When you were raped you were cornered. You were forced to have sexual activity you did not want. And you responded by submitting at the moment of the attack (not a good or bad thing submitting does not comply allowing so this is non-judgemental). Then you responded by withdrawing and becoming secretive.

An unwanted sexual advance came from someone you knew in the form of the OM.

How did you respond? Very similar but this time you had the added guilt of just having been raped. The added sense of not being in control of your body. The added conditioning that submitting would get over quicker than resisting.

Racial Subject Warning!

Okay board I need to have all the men on this board do a mental exercise. An exercise aimed at having men walk in a woman's "high heels" so to speak.

To do so I must make men understand the "minority" or "subordinate" status of women.

I will use some racial examples such as a white male in a predominantly black inner city ghetto and a black male in a rural rednectk white town.

I am using role playing in an effort to make your husbands better understand how women feel day to day. I am not promoting the concept that all black inner city males are gang members or all rural white males are members of the KKK.

Guys imagine if you will knowing everyday you step out into the world that you are different than those around you....and because of that difference you are WEAKER in terms of status and power.

Imagine being the lone white in a predominantly African American New York City neighborhood...lets say Harlem. Imagine being the only black in a white farming community near Birmingham or Selma.

Every day even when nothing happens day after day you will still be fearful still walk on egg shells still feel a sense of relief when you get home and lock the door.

You carry a never ending sense of you could be attacked.

Women do this every single day. Women read about rapes in the paper. They know other women who have been sexaully abused or beaten by their husbands or boyfriends. They go to self defense classe where they are taught to yell "FIRE" when being raped because yelling fire will draw more attention than yelling rape.

Any man here been taught to yell Fire when being raped? See what I mean we can't relate no more than a white person can relate to what it means being black in America.

So what happens when you are raised, socialized and conditioned to a feel like you are constantly under threat? When you are actually threatened you your response is influenced by this conditioning.

Many (not all because no two people are alike) respond in a submissive way not all but many would. If you are white and you see a large group of black males approaching you respond as if it were a threatening gang. You try to cross the street to avoid them you. You lower your head to avoid eye contact so that you appear non-threatening and they will leave you alone. Ditto for a black male in the deep south. He would avoid a large group of burly white farming boys. He would avoid drawing attention to himself.

This is often how some women respond to unwanted sexual advances.

Note some women. An inner city black male would respond to being stopped different from a middle class black male from the suburbs. So while the male from the burbs may get out of his car and say "officer what is the problem" the inner city black male would be more likely to get out of the car and "assume the position".

Ditto for white males. A well traveled multi cultured white male would probably knock on the door of the nearest house to use the phone if his car broke down in Watts. A white male with a family background of racial bias and prejudice would push his car 10 miles to the city limits before knocking on the door of a black inner city housing project.

So some women when raised in the deep south or inner city equivalent of sexuality respond in a passive submissive way.

Sexually abused or raped women are the most conditioned to respond in this fashion.

They don't submit because the want to or like it they submit because of their conditioning. Just as the inner city black does not like or want to be harrassed by the police but has come to accept the harrassment and submit to it in most cases.

Again no effort to promote racial sterotypes and if it came accross as such that was not my intent.

Found this on another thread posted by Suzet.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ABUSED GIRLS MAY BECOME DEPRESSED ADULTS

Women who were sexually or physically abused as children may have alterations in their brain chemistry that make them prone to depression and anxiety, new research shows. Increased hormonal responses to stress may explain why women who were abused as children are at high risk of major depression and anxiety disorders.

In a study of 49 women aged 18 to 45, researchers found that those who were both clinically depressed and had a history of abuse showed abnormal hormone activity in response to stress. Dr. Charles B. Nemeroff of Emory University School of Medicine in Atlanta, Georgia, led the study.

Nemeroff's team tested the theory that early-life trauma leads to an overly sensitive hormonal response to stress in adulthood. The study authors speculated that this sensitization makes women vulnerable to developing depression and anxiety disorders -- two closely related psychological problems.

The researchers divided the women into four groups, one of which included women who had been diagnosed with major depression and had been abused as children.

The women were placed in potentially stressful situations, including having to speak and perform mental math tasks in front of an audience.
Nemeroff and colleagues measured the women's heart rates and levels of adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH) and cortisol.

The investigators found that the stress triggered higher hormone activity in women who were depressed and had a history of abuse, compared with healthy women and those who were depressed but had not been abused.

While there has been considerable evidence that childhood trauma plays an important role in the development of adult psychological problems, this is the first human study to show hyperactive hormonal responses to stress in adults who suffered early trauma, the authors point out.

Nemeroff and his colleagues are now studying whether antidepressant drugs that block the stimulation of cortisol and ACTH can treat or even prevent mood disorders related to child abuse.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Interesting to note there were actual physiological responses to stress by women who had been abused.

Ok, about the passive roles and such. Hmm.. I have SUCH a hard time talking about these things to H or anyone else but for some reason on here things just come out through my fingers. Somehow that's easier I think. I'm feeling like elaborating on my story.

That being said, at the time of the assault, I did not initially assume a "passive" role. I definately came out of it with skin under my fingernails and some very sore muscles from struggle. As far as yelling "fire", there was not much room for that as I quickly found myself choked after starting to struggle. Wow, ok.. getting emotional, that's all of that for now. Sigh... deep breaths...

Ok onward... I guess there was a point where I did stop fighting, probably because I starting seriously fearing for my life.

Afterwards was definately a passive role, I didn't want to tell ANYONE, I wanted it to GO AWAY and not have happened. I almost did well with that in a way. I got very very depressed, started seeing a doctor, got medication, but wasn't dwelling on the assault.

Instead I think I dwelled on my marriage, I know I withdrew from my H, concious or not. I started creating this horrible marriage in my head, and so it became. I had convinced myself somehow that H didn't love me, wouldn't take care of me, and didn't want to be married to me.

I'm sure we had our problems, but I see now that it wasn't as bad as I perceived.

Now, however, it is, because of my A. Which I definately took a passive role in. M was always SO concentrated on ME, I NEVER was expected to do anything for him. I got drawn in. The EN's he was fulfilling for me were conversation, affection, admiration. SF was NEVER a priority for me, in life, marriage, anything. I DID NOT, repeat DID NOT want anything physical with him.

While I know the thought DID enter my mind once or twice that if I DID say no that he wouldn't stop, I think I had other reasons for being passive. At the point where he started making advances, I was so addicted to all the attention and affection, that I let him do what he wanted, in fear that if I didn't, he would stop filling those EN. Sounds horrible.. me me me huh.

This is all the hugest mess. Mostly I'm just so afraid, of everything, mostly myself. I'm afraid of myself. Being so young, I don't think I "found myself" before getting married. Now I'm starting to, and all I'm finding are demons, faults, and flaws.

I feel hugely guilty because of the A, but I also feel like I cheated my husband by not finding out these things about myself BEFORE I made that committment to him. So by ME overestimating MY character I've caused HIM a world of pain and anguish that he doesn't in a MILLION years deserve... one question plagues both of us... HOW could I do this??????????????

I know I mentioned before, but I'll reiterate, that H's sister was assaulted by his friend. He's had counseling and such about how to help and support an assault victim. I know he's not able to help me right now because of all the pain I caused him, another consequence of my stupidity. I REALLY want to be helping HIM right now, but I know it won't be worth much until I fix myself. Hopefully my IC gets going on the right track soon.

Now, that was a huge venting and this post is already huge, but I would still like to more address SDFRs' posts. Please hang in there! =)

I thought the message you were trying to send to men to put themselves in womens "high heels" was amazing. What you said is so true. As much as I would like to be "yay women" we are still living very much in fear.

I might not have said that prior to the R. (I can get out the first letter, that's a start right?) But, to a point it has always been true. I remember when I first moved out of my parents house. I slept with my cell phone and keys, always locked even my bedroom door. I had an elaborate escape plan should my apartment ever be broken into. I checked and rechecked my doors and windows throughout the night.

I DO think however that society kind of made me that paranoid, as nothing bad had ever happened to me prior. As a woman, all you are taught is, park under the lights, walk holding your keys between your fingers, even don't wear ponytails because that's what predators look to grab for God's sake. How would this not instill huge fear ALONG with the understand that women are WEAK and need to take these extra precautions?

Not sure if any of that made sense. I know I have a problem communicating effectively. It all makes sense in my head I swear!

As for the article. I can see how that would be true. I was not abused as a child, well technically I guess I still could be considered a child, but you know what I mean. But even though I wasn't abused as a child, I've ALWAYS had physiological responses to stress and "heartbreak". Not sure about the pulse quickening, but whenever I've been stressed emotionally I've vomitted, or had other severe stomach problems.

When H found out about the A, I literally went into shock, I threw up until I blacked out on the toilet. I walked around like a zombie for hours afterward. If my reaction was that bad, I can't imagine what he was feeling. =( (he left shortly after I confessed, by the time he came back, I was zombie-like)

Please, I know you are probably taking this as me still all about me, but I'm VERY much concentrating all my energy on my M and my H, I just know that what has to CHANGE is ME. I have been and will continue to support my H, talk about whatever he wants to talk about, and do whatever he needs me to do. It's my thoughts that are very introspective.

If this approach is wrong, or you think I could go about it in a better way, by all means, offer suggestions, I will take them to heart.

Are your eyes still working? I know my fingers are a bit worn out, as I am emotionally. I'm sure you'd be content to not hear from me for a while now, haha. Thanks for listening!!!!!

Hi SD,
Thank you. I'm printing the Walking around in Womens Heels for my H. We've been having this conversation for about a month, now. I'm from the South, he's the size of a linebacker, and he doesnt understand that I've lived every minute of my life 'On Guard'.

Hi MilW,

I am so sorry for all you are going through. I married for the 1st time at 19, after much intimadation by my exH. Now you are going through so much, so far away.. I really am sorry. You are going to be so wise at 30... you wont believe it! I've been through heck & back, myself... you can come out stronger, in the end. Please have some hope, ok?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I feel hugely guilty because of the A, but I also feel like I cheated my husband by not finding out these things about myself BEFORE I made that committment to him. So by ME overestimating MY character I've caused HIM a world of pain and anguish </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It does occur to me that your H probably knew he was marrying (forgive me for the term) a child.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As for the article. I can see how that would be true. I was not abused as a child, well technically I guess I still could be considered a child, but you know what I mean.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He didnt want a fully developed, confident woman (some men never do!). I dont care how together you were at 18, he knew you werent fully mature (again, I hope you forgive the terms, here).

Please give yourself a break on this... He married you and moved you across the world (and it seems, left you alone alot so that your EN's were VERY unmet... leaving you vunerable to predators...).

I'm not making excuses, but please dont make this worse on yourself than it already is, OK? Take care - Dru

Thanks Dru for your post. I appreciate everything you said. No offense taken in terms at all!

I know I'm a baby.. haha. I think though that already just from marriage/mil life/the move that I am somewhat beyond my age. Not that it's good or bad, it just is.

I try not to be so hard on myself. This is one of the major things discussed in my IC. Dr. says I'm "punishing" myself too much.

I think this comes from the fact that my H is so hopeless right now, and really punishing me. Our relationship is pretty one sided now. I almost envy the BS's I read about that are wanting/needing their WS. I know it's early and his affection can return and that he'll start making deposits again =)

Anyways, thanks for your post!!!

Mil,

Well, I had this great response all ready but I got busy and low and behold I forget what I was going to say....

Anyway, I don't know the exact circumstances but I gathered you were a victim of sexual assualt at a younger age. Same here Mil, I was molested by a male cousin at a young age (5-7). I to attend IC sessions to help me with dealing with the unresolved issues from my childhood. Personally I found that not dealing with it when I was younger, has caused me to have major control issues in my life. Being molested was something that I could not control. In my M and my life I used to struggle to control everything I could. Now I'm starting to let go and accept the world on its terms and not trying to shape it to my own.

Part of the way I would try to control things was to be dishonest and manipulative. I knew as an adult that it is wrong to lie but when you grew up lying at every turn to control everything in your life to keep from being hurt it came naturally. Believe it or not I would lie to my BS about the most mundane of things. I would lie so that only I knew the truth and therefore maintained some measure of control over everything. This lead to even bigger fights and worse consequences. Needless to say, I now embrace the truth in every aspect of my life.

The last thing I wanted to say was that you need to stop being so damned hard on yourself. When I disclosed the A I had to my wife, I made myself and everyone around me miserable for a couple of weeks because all I did was obsesss on how bad a H and father I had been because I had an affair. As I learned more of my own issues I began to do the same thing you said you've been doing. I began to feel guilty for never facing the unresolved issues in my life that lead to bad behavior patterns.

STOP

Somehere who goes by the screenname of Ark said the same things to me in a post that my Dr. said to me in counselling that night.

"You were a kid when that happened to you and you never dealt with it. How could you expect to? How many kids do you think could have this sort of thing happen and have been able to go to an adult and say, "geez ma/pa someone did this to me."

Even as a young adult or even as an adult, sexual assault largely goes unreported and undealt with because of how traumatic it is for the individual.

just my 2 cents
-2soon

2soon - Thanks for your post. I wasn't molested or anything like that at a young age. It was only about 4 months ago and it wasn't someone I knew. I could still apply many of your thoughts to my situation and I want to thank you for sharing your story.

Like I said before, at 19, I still consider myself to be at a young age though =)

Thanks for your 2cents! I know me being so hard on myself doesn't help much, but it makes me feel better sometimes. I know I can fix me, I don't want to accept that there's things I can't fix. Control issue I guess. I think I'm also afraid that if I'm not this hard on myself, H won't get the right idea as far as my level of remorse, ya know? Any thoughts anyone?

bump... ::SDRF are you out there????::

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I try not to be so hard on myself. This is one of the major things discussed in my IC. Dr. says I'm "punishing" myself too much.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay do you understand why you are "punishing" yourself?

Some quick questions....are you perfectionist? Does everything have to be just right when say you set the table for dinner with company coming over? Do you often feel no matter how hard you try you just can't get it right? Or you can't do anything right? Or at times do you say to yourself "I feel so hopeless"?

You aren't really punishing yourself. And when your friends or spouse tells you to not be so hard on yourself you are not being that either.

More than likely you are setting up conditions to fail...that's right to fail. Nothing can be perfect but by wanting what cannot be you have set yourself up to fail.

When there are serious self esteem issues for whatever reasons (does not have to include any abuse or rape issues) you subconciously seek to reinforce your negative self image.

My wife use to always look at the negative. Do something 95% right she would dwell on the 5% done wrong.

Why because subconciously you believe you are a failure that you are not worthy of doing good. So you make the negative happen because it restores balance you feel you are negative so when you achieve negative everything is in sync.

How many times do we read about teenage girls with eating disorders? Its in the news media all the time. What stands out the most are the large number of well proportioned or even underweight teens that think they are fat.

The fact that they are not is irrelevant. You may show them that for their height and age they are at the correct weight or even below the correct weight and they still will not accept that fact. So in the end they wind up with any number of eating disorders ranging from belimia, gorging-purging disorder and so on.

Early in our marriage I often told my wife how pretty she was...still is. Her common response was "you're just saying that because I'm your wife" or words to the affect.

Because of her past abuse she had a terrible self image especially when it came to her looks and her body. Didn't matter how pretty she really was she could not accept the truth. Her reality was that she was dirty, not pretty and had an awkwardly shaped body with undersized breast...it was not reality to everyone else but it was her reality.

Click here:

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/faith1again/detail?.dir=/MB+Photos&.dnm=stunned-dad2.jpg

As you can see by faith1's Marriage Builder's photo album my wife is still beautiful 17 years after I married her...will be 18 on the 15th of this month.

But she NEVER ever believed she was....I mean NEVER.

So behavior was influenced by her poor self image. Her poor self image was influenced or a byproduct of her sexual abuse and rape. See how one thing can start a chain of events that some people are less likely to be able to control?

Now in your case...note we can see signs that you have above normal self esteem issues...where they come from can only really be determined by a trained professional something I am two years away from being.

Now look at the steps that lead to an affair. Poor self esteem, someone pays you attention...I suspect by design not by sincerity...and here is how you responded to unwanted sexual advances:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I was so addicted to all the attention and affection, that I let him do what he wanted, in fear that if I didn't, he would stop filling those EN. Sounds horrible.. me me me huh.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Odds are early in your marriage your spouse gave you far more attention and affection than the OM but guess what...."he's my husband" so devalued those very same actions. Why? Remember I said my wife could not accept compliments from me...its because being complimented being loved is something given to or done for someone of value....what were/are you in YOUR....someone without value.

One of the answers my wife gave me as to why she allowed things to happen was...."once I thought you no longer loved me it didn't matter anymore..I didn't matter anymore." Note she sought out a scenario where she had no value...if someone stops loving you tomorrow your relationship with that person has no value BUT you as a person should still feel you have value. Persons with low self esteem seek ways to validate that negative imagery.

So he is paying you attention... here is where low self esteem actually inflames inappropiate attention.

What did you do with your husband's affection and attention..you devalued it. You devalued it because you were not a good person. So the only real reason he is doing these things is because of the ring on his finger...see you created a scenario consistent with the negative feelings you have for yourself.

But what the attention from the OM? Why didn't I devalue his attention too?

Good back to believing that you have no value...why would someone pay someone with no value attention...bet you might have even thought why is paying attention to me I'm nobody special.

Suddenly he must REALLY mean what he is saying. (in your mind) Why? Because clearly (in your mind) you have no value so he must be really mean all that he is saying you must be really special for him to pay a person with no value attention.

Make sense?

So when the threat of losing something that gave you a positive self image happened...you made the trade off. No you didn't conciously say I will sleep with him so he keeps paying me attention keeps meeting that need. But subconciously your exagerated need to feel special (a product of feeling like you had no value) created a sense of urgency.

Geuss what happened next?

You reinforced your perception of someone with little value. How....you became a bad person again...you did what only a bad person would do. You restored your negative self image.

Now that is an overly simple explaination. There were many more issues involved but I think it covers the greatest issue.

BTW your husband is not being hopeless right now.

More than likely he is either still in some form of shock or he is overwhelmed by all that has happened and all that he is feeling.

I know for the first few months I was a walking zombie.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So by ME overestimating MY character I've caused HIM a world of pain and anguish that he doesn't in a MILLION years deserve... one question plagues both of us... HOW could I do this??????????????
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See the negative self imagery? Instead of making poor choices or not trying to understand my inner self better you degrade your character.

Character is at the very core of someone's moral value system.

Good people do bad things. Sadly it happens...ah but if you have BAD character then you will always be BAD instead of someone good that made a bad mistake.

See what appears to be just subtle difference but in reality is a HUGE difference?

I can relate to what you are saying for all those years my wife was sexual dysfunctional. And yes Mr. Sensitive would often battle and ***** with her on this subject. And she would always say "its me I am the one with the problem" then never add to it or seek professional help to deal with what she was hiding from me.

Yes for awhile I thought how unfair how selfish it was her to cling to me hoping just being married would take care of her deamons.

But there is nothing that can be done about that.

As much as I don't like facing the reality of it we had a bad marriage. We were not connected...especially sexually/intimately wise. We did not know each other. We became platonic in our dynamics...me being the big brother or parent her being the kid sister or child. We got along great on many fronts but as a man and woman we truly did not.

Without some form of radical shakeup we would have continued in this dysfunctional marrige never being happy settling for not being sad. Or we would have divorced.

I would a thousand times preferred she some other event shock her into dealing with her deamons...but I could would of could of should of myself to death and it would serve no purpose.

You and your husband have just recieved a huge wakeup call. Its going to be very painful for awhile. Its going to take alot of personal growth for the both of you...you in particular. Its going to take alot of patience on your part. Alot of support for him even if acts to angry to accept it.

But if you answer the call you will in the end have a much much better marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> SF was NEVER a priority for me, in life, marriage, anything. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mil

Have you explored why SF was not a priority? SF is a perfectly normal healthy part of being a woman or a man. Normally when someone has no interest its due either to physical or mental reasons not a simple lack of interest.

Hello hello... it's been a little while I've since here but the past few days have been rough for H and me to say the least, the 14th being valentines day AND our anniversary. We're doing better now though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Some quick questions....are you perfectionist? Does everything have to be just right when say you set the table for dinner with company coming over? Do you often feel no matter how hard you try you just can't get it right? Or you can't do anything right? Or at times do you say to yourself "I feel so hopeless"?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't see myself as a perfectionist. I DO feel like I can't do anything right, but I also know I've probably never given 100% in anything I've done my whole life. Feeling hopeless, uh, sometimes. Too many time to list though probably.

EVERYTHING you said in that post made sooo much sense to me, yet I really never looked at it that way. I guess my questions are, how do I start believing that I'm a good person, pretty, you know, generally raise my self esteem? I don't think I've EVER had self esteem, but in the sense that I don't have opinions of myself. If the people around me give me lots of attention and tell me how great I am, that's what I think, if they tell me negatively, that's also what I think.

Me and my mom talked about this the other day, I've never had my own opinion of myself, and if I do, it's bad. Hmm... I'm so dependent on what other people think of me, yet I don't act in a way that would make them think good....

By the way, you're wife is a gorgeous woman. It's sad that she doesn't believe that. It's sad I don't believe that. I'm not sure about the rules about posting HTML's, but my personal website is hometown.aol.com/honeybunny38402 you can see pictures of me and my husband on there.

As for your next post, I understand now that my husband isn't being hopeless. If he didn't have hope, he wouldn't be here with me right now. Again I just have to learn to not let his opinions and such affect my outlook.

Next post - I feel like I'm trying to address my demons and fix them. Though I've only seen my IC 4 times, I feel like I haven't gotten far at all. Maybe I'm not asking him the right questions??? SDFR, you've brought up more and made me think about more in these posts than he has since I've been going. I know these things take time, so I will try to stick it out and keep going. I don't have much choice since dealing with military healthcare, what I got is what I get =)

As far as the SF goes. Thats a pretty long story I think that would require much more of an explicit explanation than is appropriate on this board. So I'll just say that I don't know WHY it's not a priority, but I think I have some insights into how it became such. Starting with my first experiences at 15. Yep, I said 15. I was "in love" and going to "marry him" if he'd not been sleeping with 4, yes 4 of my so called friends. Such tangled webs to weave at 15 huh.. lol.. I'll go more into the story later, I think I can explain without offending.

So thanks yall for listening again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">how do I start believing that I'm a good person, pretty, you know, generally raise my self esteem? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ugh a tough one. I really don't know to be honest. I have never made it that far in my personal and grad level reseach.

So I am going to suggest you find books on raising your self esteem and take it from there.

But I will say this I suspect you respect your husband immensely. If that is correct then you must realize he picked you to be with him for the rest of his life. Trust his judgement.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think I've EVER had self esteem, but in the sense that I don't have opinions of myself. If the people around me give me lots of attention and tell me how great I am, that's what I think, if they tell me negatively, that's also what I think.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lack of opinion about your own self esteem is right up there with having a bad self image.

Not surprising that you easily follow the crowd because you have no set of values or opinions. Odds are you are conflict avoider...having opinions or views means having to defend them when unpopular and risking rejection from those with differing positions...your solution don't have anything to defend.

Not surprising that you could be manipulated in other ways as well especially being drawn into an affair.

NOW this not an excuse, justification or other for your affair but it is an effort to make you understand what happened so that you can grow from it and lessen the risk of going thru it all over again.

Mil

I strongly recommend you go online and find a copy of The Sexual Healing Journey. It spends a great deal of time addressing self esteem issues both in terms of helping you figure which ones you have but also some exercises to work on poor self image.

AS to the SF issue its important because it impacts your relationship with your husband and how you interact with those of the opposite gender...including the OM.

Not sure how explicit you really need to be I think just a brief outline of what your issues are fine and don't violate board rules.

Marriages while partnerships on many levels are sexual partnerships as well. And like other confilicts (in-laws, money, religion and so on) they are at the root of what makes a marriage good or bad or worse...over.

how do I start believing that I'm a good person, pretty, you know, generally raise my self esteem?
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Ugh a tough one. I really don't know to be honest. I have never made it that far in my personal and grad level reseach.

So I am going to suggest you find books on raising your self esteem and take it from there.

But I will say this I suspect you respect your husband immensely. If that is correct then you must realize he picked you to be with him for the rest of his life. Trust his judgement.


quote:
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I don't think I've EVER had self esteem, but in the sense that I don't have opinions of myself. If the people around me give me lots of attention and tell me how great I am, that's what I think, if they tell me negatively, that's also what I think.

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Lack of opinion about your own self esteem is right up there with having a bad self image.

Not surprising that you easily follow the crowd because you have no set of values or opinions. Odds are you are conflict avoider...having opinions or views means having to defend them when unpopular and risking rejection from those with differing positions...your solution don't have anything to defend.

Not surprising that you could be manipulated in other ways as well especially being drawn into an affair.

NOW this not an excuse, justification or other for your affair but it is an effort to make you understand what happened so that you can grow from it and lessen the risk of going thru it all over again.

Mil

I strongly recommend you go online and find a copy of The Sexual Healing Journey. It spends a great deal of time addressing self esteem issues both in terms of helping you figure which ones you have but also some exercises to work on poor self image.

AS to the SF issue its important because it impacts your relationship with your husband and how you interact with those of the opposite gender...including the OM.

Not sure how explicit you really need to be I think just a brief outline of what your issues are fine and don't violate board rules.

Marriages while partnerships on many levels are sexual partnerships as well. And like other confilicts (in-laws, money, religion and so on) they are at the root of what makes a marriage good or bad or worse...over.

Just to clarify - I am in NO way trying to make excuses, justifications, etc. What I AM trying to do is address my demons, find them and drive them out before any more harm can be done, so I can have a long happy healthy marriage.

I definately see myself as a conflict avoider. So is H, this might explain why we seem to be living life as if nothing happened now, and liking it that way. Strange.

I ordered a copy of the book the day you recommended it, as I said though, it will be a couple weeks since I'm dealing with a military FPO address overseas. I'm anxiously awaiting it's arrival and will let you know what I "discover" when I read it.

As far as the SF goes, as I said before, my sexual life started at 15, I was in a relationship, things weren't right, it was way to soon. He slept with 4 of my friends, definately was a cheater, I broke it off with him (this was all after about 2 years being in this relationship) right after I found out. He begged me back. He was manic-depressive and not medicated, he stalked me, threatened me. I could not get a restraining order, so ended up picking up shop, moving to a new house, city, school. So now I'm real messed up by this point. Turned into a huge slut, slept with 2 of HIS friends, and just about anyone else I could find. I met my now H, I calmed down, fell in love again, he cheated on me twice while we dated, I kept taking him back because, well.. that's just me, that's just what happens, right?

Back to my SF issues, I got off track. When I was probably 13-14, my half brother (also manic-depressive) started making "passes", hitting on me, grabbing certain "parts". I did end up telling my parents eventually.

Also, probably a result of something, I am unable to, um, climax during sex. Never have been never will be. This GREATLY affected my H. He felt like he couldn't please me. He tried for so long and so hard to get that satisfication for himself that finally he gave up. Sex for us was purely mechanical, no foreplay, kyjelly is a staple, and when he tossed it at me I knew he was in the mood (lol?)

The fact that I, couldn't, never bothered me. I have other, means. It was never a priority. I know my H must have put some weight on it though.

Again, hoping I have not gotten too explicit. Please if I have someone let me know so I can edit and get this off the board.
This is embarrassing to put out there for the world to see as it is.

There's nothing wrong with me medically, so I'm guessing it must be mental.

I know the more I reveal about my history the more the question "how could I have done what I did????" pulls at my heart. One would think, that considering all I've been through, I would be unable to cause another person, much less one I love, so much pain.

By the way, I LOVE my husband. More than I could ever express. This morning he asked me what I was going to do today while he was at work. I replied that I was going to pay some bills, and clean, meticulously and thoroughly, since I know it's very important for him to come to a clean house.

He replied with, "why don't you take a break from cleaning today, I don't see much to clean anyway. Why don't you go to the gym instead, get a good workout in? Then you should go get your hair done, or a massage, or your nails done"

My jaw dropped. I'm not bringing in ANY money. He's so wonderful. I can't express it. I love this man. I can't believe I was so blind to the love he has for me. So yes, I respect my H a GREAT deal. He's a wonderful man. =D

Just to clarify - I am in NO way trying to make excuses, justifications, etc. What I AM trying to do is address my demons, find them and drive them out before any more harm can be done, so I can have a long happy healthy marriage.

I definately see myself as a conflict avoider. So is H, this might explain why we seem to be living life as if nothing happened now, and liking it that way. Strange.

I ordered a copy of the book the day you recommended it, as I said though, it will be a couple weeks since I'm dealing with a military FPO address overseas. I'm anxiously awaiting it's arrival and will let you know what I "discover" when I read it.

As far as the SF goes, as I said before, my sexual life started at 15, I was in a relationship, things weren't right, it was way to soon. He slept with 4 of my friends, definately was a cheater, I broke it off with him (this was all after about 2 years being in this relationship) right after I found out. He begged me back. He was manic-depressive and not medicated, he stalked me, threatened me. I could not get a restraining order, so ended up picking up shop, moving to a new house, city, school. So now I'm real messed up by this point. Turned into a huge slut, slept with 2 of HIS friends, and just about anyone else I could find. I met my now H, I calmed down, fell in love again, he cheated on me twice while we dated, I kept taking him back because, well.. that's just me, that's just what happens, right?

Back to my SF issues, I got off track. When I was probably 13-14, my half brother (also manic-depressive) started making "passes", hitting on me, grabbing certain "parts". I did end up telling my parents eventually.

Also, probably a result of something, I am unable to, um, climax during sex. Never have been never will be. This GREATLY affected my H. He felt like he couldn't please me. He tried for so long and so hard to get that satisfication for himself that finally he gave up. Sex for us was purely mechanical, no foreplay, kyjelly is a staple, and when he tossed it at me I knew he was in the mood (lol?)

The fact that I, couldn't, never bothered me. I have other, means. It was never a priority. I know my H must have put some weight on it though.

Again, hoping I have not gotten too explicit. Please if I have someone let me know so I can edit and get this off the board.
This is embarrassing to put out there for the world to see as it is.

There's nothing wrong with me medically, so I'm guessing it must be mental.

I know the more I reveal about my history the more the question "how could I have done what I did????" pulls at my heart. One would think, that considering all I've been through, I would be unable to cause another person, much less one I love, so much pain.

By the way, I LOVE my husband. More than I could ever express. This morning he asked me what I was going to do today while he was at work. I replied that I was going to pay some bills, and clean, meticulously and thoroughly, since I know it's very important for him to come to a clean house.

He replied with, "why don't you take a break from cleaning today, I don't see much to clean anyway. Why don't you go to the gym instead, get a good workout in? Then you should go get your hair done, or a massage, or your nails done"

My jaw dropped. I'm not bringing in ANY money. He's so wonderful. I can't express it. I love this man. I can't believe I was so blind to the love he has for me. So yes, I respect my H a GREAT deal. He's a wonderful man. =D