Hi All-

Well the title says it all. The lawyers were speechless when they reeviewed the letter being offered by the co-parenting counselor's. Both agreed that the summary was ridiculous and they both agreed that the letter would not be submitted as evidence in this whole nightmare!

Additionally, they both put in a motion and now neither of us has to attend the sessions any longer.

My lawyer is holding x to the IC that he hasn't bothered to sign up for. Basically, he has thirty days to comply. If not, she will be filing a contempt of court against him! I'm glad because he really NEEDS counseling. Out of all of this, I just want us all to heal already...

The status now is that DS now has a Guardian that is court appointed. Rather than making a motion for custody, my lawyer requested that X pay for the guardian.

The judge sincerly tried to get X to settle She told him the same things that the co-parenting group and the mediator did. He doesn't want to budge 1 cm.

All in all, I'm prepared to do what's best for DS. He has started IC for someone to represent him as his voice, and now he has his own guardian too.

I'm feeling strong and confident.

As for the house issue. X has offerred me $15K. I refused and told the lawyer that I already came down as much as I plan too. I told her that unless he meets that figure then I want the house sold.

Hope you all are well-

<small>[ February 14, 2004, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: God-within-kily ]</small>

I am SO HAPPY that you don't have to attend those sessions with your ex anymore. They were truly just bringing you down. (and what a relief it must have been to hear the lawyers agree to the idiocy of the groups claim... there's nothing like some real LEGAL validation! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).

You sound so confident in this post. Things are obviously looking up for you on all accounts, as it protrudes in your online "voice". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Keep us posted as things develop. You're one of the ones whose story I try to follow. (does that mean I can blame YOU for my addiction to coming to MB? LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ).

Karen

What a great post Kily! I agree with Topie, you really are sounding much better. I dare to say it sounds as if you've crossed that line that separates trying to control the outcome of a situation and accepting what you cannot change. If true, this is the most important step you can make in your recovery.

Congratulations Again!

Topie and Faith,

Thanks so much for following along. I have definately reached a new level of healing and self empowerment. This healinig was independant of the custody stuff, but it sure has helped me to be able to step back and see things with a less emotional view than previously.

After all of the conflict and the aggravation of getting to this point in court, I receive an email from X requesting private meeting between the two of us for the sake of "clearing the air" between us. My thoughts are that this is just another manipulation by X to try to play yon my emotions. I have to believe that if anything could have been worked out, we would have arrived there during therapy, mediation, or in the presence of family services....

Should I meet with him?
JL I really need your sage wisdom.

Thanks again

IN NO WAY SHOULD YOU MEET WITH HIM! He has made it clear that he will not budge in court, so what will change by having a face to face! NOTHING but BABBLE TALK! Like you said, just more manipulation on his part. Say "No thank you, all discussions will be handled in court". Ofcourse he will say you are not being cooperative and it's all your fault, but so what. YOU KNOW THE TRUTH!

I don't know that I'd be quite that blunt about it. I think I might invite the X to write to you, for example; be open to resolving problems, tell him you'd like to work things out, but that you're concerned that a face-to-face might be too emotional for both of you.

I'd also be sincere about all that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You -do- want to work things out, and you're always better off without lawyers and judges and psychologists and other professionals involved. At the same time, you guys have been so deeply in conflict that it may well be impossible for you two to avoid pushing each other's buttons.

And if you want to work anything out, you've got to figure out a way to avoid button-pushing.

Not that I'm any good at that in my own life, but at least I've figured out that I have limits beyond which I should not go.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Should I meet with him?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This needs to be your choice. Are you comfortable with where you're at emotionally to be able to pull off meeting with him?

IMHO, I feel H wants to meet with you to try and get back some of the power that he has lost. I suspect he's going to try and get to you emotionally. If you meet with him, I suggest you do it in a public place, and have some firm boundaries in place.

Good Luck.

trying2-
you are mirroring my thoughts. I think that my taker is in self protect mode and even if he is sincere, I simply am too suspicious.

Faith-
Once again you have nailed my thoughts right to the board. I'm so afraid to meet because every time I do, the pain from contact almost overwhelms me for weeks. I suppose this would be a good test for me to see just how strong my personal recovery is...

J-
As usual, you are the voice that I need to hear to challenge me to rise above the 'white noise' that evolves from emotion.

I have sent an email stating my reservations about a face to face converesatioin. I asked him what it is that he wishes to discuss and I want him to outline what his goals and objectives are for an agreement.

Maybe he did finally hear all of the people talking to him...I'll keep you all posted.

Thanks for being there for me.

Kily,

I think you have gotten very good advice. You don't want to shut him out, but you do want to protect yourself. So you may need to express why you have such concerns.

I think the real problem here is that exBF sees himself as a victim, and to a degree he was. He doesn't see that he is victimizing you or at least trying to. So negotiation has proven to be very hard.

I like JustJ's suggestion, but I feel that since the lawyers and courts are already in this, that doing it on your own would be sort of locking the barn door after all the cows are out. What would be optimal in my mind is that you two discuss what would make the best sense for all concerned. Run it through the lawyers, have them sort out and protect both of you, and then get this thing done.

Given your last post about the two lawyers agreeing that the report was and should be ignored, it sounds as if they are at least reasonable while still being advocates for both sides. That is refreshing to hear.

My own bias is that neither of you can truely protect yourselves and reach a reasonable agreement. Please don't be offended by this comment. But, this is sooo emotional for both of you, that it is hard for either of you to have a well balanced view of it. I do think you are much further along than exBF, but you are vulnerable to him. He seems to be shrouded in his victimhood.

So stick with the lawyers would be my advice. Meet with exBF only if he and you understand the goals, the topics, and that you both are very hurt and need to protect yourselves by avoiding LB's. I would also seek an agreement that anything you two do agree on is only an agreement subject to review by your respective lawyers. The lawyers advice will be followed. I think that might take some of the edge off of this.

Anyway you have my $0.02. I hope all of our advice has been of help.

God Bless,

JL

Agree with JL -

If he does come up with valid reasons to talk, make sure that he understands that it will be subject to discussion with, and approval by the lawyers. They often can see things that you cannot see, and it would not be wise to give up some rights that it may be difficult to get back later.

If he starts button pushing, leave without doing it in return. Just excuse yourself, and go.

Write down your feelings of before and after so you can learn from it, and remember it in case he brings it up again in a few months.

If he tries coercion, take good notes. I hesitate to recommend recording this, but I probably would be tempted to do that were it me going.

Having been in one of these legal fights myself, I wouldn't give away anything without approval from counsel.

Also, um, darn, I can't think of a good joke, so - I'll just close.

SS

JL:

"I think the real problem here is that exBF sees himself as a victim, and to a degree he was."

And that's the point. He WAS. He ISN'T. He may be in his mind, but in reality he isn't.

Nobody but ourselves can make the decision 2 jettison the "victim". We make ourselves the victim, not those around us.

-ol' 2long

quick update I'll get to in depth responses monday...

saw X today at our last session. The important "message" that he wanted to convey -

"I'm sorry that this has gotten this far, but you should have stopped seeing him when I told you too."

Can anyone tell me what I'm missing here?

still seeking-
I felt guarded prior to this, afterewards, I was in "grieving mode" again.

My interpretation of: "I'm sorry that this has gotten this far, but you should have stopped seeing him when I told you to.", is that he's still seeing you as the ENTIRE and ONLY reason that your R dissolved.

I think right there, he's come out and told you that he still can't get over your A. (from experience as a BS, it IS hard... but he's also not making any efforts to heal).

His taker took over long ago, and he's still in full force. Geesh... it's like what he told you is a threat to you. And from his track record, from what you've relayed to us, he is simply continuing with the blame game.

Sad. Truly sad. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Karen

Kily,

He is STILL the victim. And to some extent his feelings are very very valid. BUT... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> they no long apply to this particular situation.

I would guess he somehow thinks you are doing this to either "get back at him" or to "get him back". I am not sure he has considered, that you just want to "get away".

Oh Well, you learned something and you met him on his ground as he requested.

Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ February 14, 2004, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

JL-

I have to agree with you. From my perspective, I'm guessing that in his mind he still views me as still clinging to him. I guess his position is to "put me in my place" as faith suggested he might.

The fact is, I'm not living for that dream anymore. I have come to terms with the good and the bad. I understand the whys and the why nots. I've truly let go and have continued walking the journey that I started, and am destined to have.

I no longer think of my life decisions in terms of how they will make X feel. For me, this was a Very big step towards my healing. I have actually arrived at a place where not having his presence in my life is an okay thing. There was a time when the thought of not having his approval of me would have devaststed me.

I don't understand how he would think that my efforts to be with DS is getting back at him. All I'm trying to do is to give the child a consistent, predictable stabiltiy in an attempt to help him feel safe enough to heal. It's not about x at all, other than the fact that he doesn't recognize my position.

I also really don't see how he would think that I'm trying to get him back. I barely have contact with him, and when I do, I try and keep it simple and to the point. I think that I could count on one hand the amount of conversations that we've had about anything personal.

Topie's right too. He is simply holding on to his anger. I do understand his hurt. I'm not trying to diminish it in any way. The way that I see it though is that I really did try and make amends. The consequences to my choices was that he found someone else. Okay, so that is his decision...why hold on to that hatred and anger? If you're going to stay that "victimized", then figure out WHY and do something about it. Instead of staying violated and using that as a crutch to get your fiancee to feel sorry for you and have to protect you from your evil x...admit that you're STILL in pain and deal with it. Okay that might have been a little disrespectful.

I guess my frustration is that I was forced to accept his choices and I really have. Why is he still justifying his choices to me? I made my situation into something good from something verey bleak and dark. Although I don't have all the happy answers, I'm doing my damndest to live my life well. Sure there are times when I get lonely, but I get through it. I don't want to be pulled back into the emotional blame game.

I found myself blaming in defense...you should have stopped when I was on my knees begging for your help and love, instead you chose your priorities and needs over me...

I don't want to be a victim anymore. He made his choices then. It's okay. I realize that he did what he needed to do just as I did and as much as I was hurt by those choices, I no longer hold him responsible.

Yes, I cheated. Yes, it was a very cruel and insensititve thing to do. Yes, I am devastated that my actions led to such a deep pain and loss for my X. Yes, I wish that I could go back in time and change that choice.

I can't. That's okay though. I'm a damned good person now and I know that I will never stray again. I've learned how to be honest no matter how painful the situation...

Anyway, just some rambling thoughts that I thought might help sosmeone out there that's reading.

Feedback and questions arer welcome...

Kily,

Just responding to your post.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I no longer think of my life decisions in terms of how they will make X feel. For me, this was a Very big step towards my healing. I have actually arrived at a place where not having his presence in my life is an okay thing. There was a time when the thought of not having his approval of me would have devaststed me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is very good Kily. You are on the right track.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't understand how he would think that my efforts to be with DS is getting back at him. All I'm trying to do is to give the child a consistent, predictable stabiltiy in an attempt to help him feel safe enough to heal. It's not about x at all, other than the fact that he doesn't recognize my position.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are taking control of DS away from him. In reality he will become at best a parttime father and he knows that. He no doubt also feels that you have no right to do this since you did what you did to him. It is very easy to see where he is coming from. He is still the victim and hasn't healed. A lot of what is going on is his fault based on his decisions.

But...still the feelings persist. So you left to deal with that. He does like control doesn't he? He will have none now. He is fighting to retain some control, and probably in his mind some connection to the devastation that he is in.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also really don't see how he would think that I'm trying to get him back. I barely have contact with him, and when I do, I try and keep it simple and to the point. I think that I could count on one hand the amount of conversations that we've had about anything personal.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And who said this was rational??? If you push him away, you COULD be playing hard to get. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Topie's right too. He is simply holding on to his anger. I do understand his hurt. I'm not trying to diminish it in any way. The way that I see it though is that I really did try and make amends. The consequences to my choices was that he found someone else. Okay, so that is his decision...why hold on to that hatred and anger? If you're going to stay that "victimized", then figure out WHY and do something about it. Instead of staying violated and using that as a crutch to get your fiancee to feel sorry for you and have to protect you from your evil x...admit that you're STILL in pain and deal with it. Okay that might have been a little disrespectful.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, but remember there is a child in the middle of this and he is losing that child as well. So that stokes the anger, the pain, and the sense of victimhood. He lost...it all. And rebuilding after losing it all is hard to do. So you get the fighting and the resistence even to good ideas.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess my frustration is that I was forced to accept his choices and I really have. Why is he still justifying his choices to me? I made my situation into something good from something verey bleak and dark. Although I don't have all the happy answers, I'm doing my damndest to live my life well. Sure there are times when I get lonely, but I get through it. I don't want to be pulled back into the emotional blame game.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good thinking. Don't get pulled back into it. Just recognize that he had little control over this situation since you left him and your DS. You have come back and he could not handle it, so now he is losing his DS as well.

You have done very well in handling your life and what it has handed you. But, you recognized you were broken and had to address this. He hasn't recognized he is broken yet. It is a very sad thing, but he will bottom out and then maybe he will heal.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I found myself blaming in defense...you should have stopped when I was on my knees begging for your help and love, instead you chose your priorities and needs over me...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Normal, and actually he seems to be doing the same thing but to a much larger degree. You are doing well Kily and gradually you will not feel the need to defend.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't want to be a victim anymore. He made his choices then. It's okay. I realize that he did what he needed to do just as I did and as much as I was hurt by those choices, I no longer hold him responsible.

Yes, I cheated. Yes, it was a very cruel and insensititve thing to do. Yes, I am devastated that my actions led to such a deep pain and loss for my X. Yes, I wish that I could go back in time and change that choice.

I can't. That's okay though. I'm a damned good person now and I know that I will never stray again. I've learned how to be honest no matter how painful the situation...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes you are a good person now and you should be proud. You are also right that you cannot undo what is done. It is a sad thing and hard for people to accept that when they do damage, often they cannot really help the person they hurt so badly. That person has to deal with it and heal from it and the person that did the damage can do little but support them, if that is allowed.

Your exBF has to do the work to heal. Sadly, that is his legacy from knowing you. But, as you move on and do well in your life, as I expect you will, it may motivate him to heal and do the same thing. That is really all you can do.


Kily, you are doing well, and making sure that DS is well cared for and any issues he has are addressed is a good thing.

God Bless,

JL

Kily.....

I don't understand, you don't understand, and it may well be that your X doesn't understand.

But.

He was trying to say something that was vitally, terribly important to him. Something that was burning him all the way to the bone.

It was more, I would guess, than what you heard. Much more.

HE APOLOGIZED.

Were my WP to apologize for the awfulness that's happened between us, I think I'd cry for three days. And you blew him off and said so what?

Okay, probably he did it badly and with little grace. Probably he apologized for the wrong things and threw in yucky controlling language while he was at it.

But have you ever considered how amazing it is for a man who was not at fault for anything to do with your affair can step forward and admit that he was wrong about how he handled things?

I guess I really only have one other thing to say. You talk about being the strong one here, the one who has grown and learned and changed.

And I suspect all that is true.

So here's the geas I lay upon you, Kily. Do not blame your X for his lack of progress or achievement. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that he should just get over it and/or move on.

You and he have a child together. You have a bond between you that lasts for the rest of your lives.

You can, and probably should, continue to consult your lawyers. But I would still love to hear/read, in your X's own words, what he thinks and feels and wants right now.

I'd love for him to write all of that to you, in response to a simple e-mail from you:

"X,

I've been thinking a lot about what you said, and I think I didn't really understand or absorb what you were trying to say. I think my own emotions get in the way instead. I was wondering -- would you write the things you tried to say to me? Write them and send them? Not because you didn't say it well, because you did. But because I want to really listen without all the emotions getting in the way, and I need to work hard to do that these days.

Regards,
Kily"

J-

I sent the email.

I understand what you're saying about "just get over it".

For me, it's a two way street. He expects me to accept what he did and move on. Why don't I have that same right?

The truth is that we both emotionally abandoned each other. I chose OM and as a result, he chose OW. So, I can either watch events kicking and screaming, or I can walk away.

I'm not saying that you're wrong...I just don't get it. For me, the point is that we do have to share a child. I have accepted the consequences of my actions.

Truthtfully, after he and I exchanged that moment, I thought about it for a really long time. I thought about the things I could have said or done differently. You're right, He does feel bad that we are so at odds with each other. So do I.

You're right, he did apologize. Unfortunately, my taker is hearing blame and manipulation. For me, the history has been for him to talk his way into letting my guard down so that he has POWER. That's why I started this post to begin with. Any time I am vulnerable, I get kicked in the teeth. That is why I immediately felt the urge to defend. It helps me to keep myself in that protective cocoon that I built around me.

The fact is, one of us needs to let go so that the cycle will stop. I have resigned myself to the fact that DS will have two families and once he is married, I will do my best to ensure that his newe wife and I will get along for my DS's sake.

He can choose to feel what he likes. I have no judgements towards him for that. His pain is real and valid. I just don't see the gain for any person to hold onto it if they are making that type of commitment to someone new.

Just more rambling thoughts.