Thank you for your insighful reply JL. I do look forward to reading other people's perspectives on things, and yours are unusually perceptive and helpful. What I must tell you though is I HAVE been that woman for my husband - for many, many years. I just got tired of being the "cheerleader" I guess? I praise his work, tell him I think he's handsome, praise him helping me around the house, praise his unselfish and talented lovemaking skills, help him with projects, get involved with his life and what he is doing, have adopted hobbies and interests of his just to share time with him (baseball games for instance). All of this, and it hasn't been enough. I feel you are partly correct in saying I should make him long for and fantasize about ME - that is why, I almost intuitively did NOT yell at him when I found this all out, and I have not rejected his sexual advances at all. In fact our sex life is better now then it has been in a long time, perhaps because this is "out in the open" and his "guilt" and confusion is somewhat relieved? But, I can't help but believe that all his attention, both sexual and otherwise is a "smokescreen" - that he is trying to be very disarming and is trying to make me "feel" his love? I must say - it is working at least to some degree.

I do agree that I need to work on my "enthusiasm" - not in the bedroom, because that has never been the problem. I need to try to be less critical of him in other ways, and make him feel that he is my "hero". But, it is hard to continue to be the "cheerleader" as I said, for all these years, when I have tried in the past many times to discuss my "emotional needs" with him, only to have him revert to his old patterns in a few weeks! SO FRUSTRATING! I swear this has been his only weakness or "failing" - his emotional distancing. And I am so afraid that it was due to him being involved in a fantasy romance/affair during those times. It has been frequent enough to be frightening if this is true. As I mentioned before, his pattern of behavior in his treatment of me was the same in the past as it was when I found him to be so absorbed in this recent EA or fantasy relationship. I have suffered from what I like to call "benign neglect" from him for YEARS! And, yes, I HAVE told him what I need, and I HAVE praised him when he addresses these needs.

I have tried to be his "fantasy" - I don't think it works!? I took along a beautiful, flowered silk chemise on vacation to FL with us. I showed it to him as I hung it in the closet. He looked up and said something like "oh yeah", and never asked me to put it on. I threw it away when we came home. I told him about this, and he said "I don't think you should have to wear lingerie to be sexy". I said, "yes, but don't you long for a little variety, or something a little different"? He says "yeah, I guess". See how some of our conversations have gone?

I also think you are being a bit too kind JL. I know that some men just lose their interest in their wives in a long term relationship. Things become stale, and playing out fantasies does not address the real problem - lack of desire for the spouse? The LONGING for someone fresh and new? Not all men lose interest due to poor treatment or lack of enthusiasm from their spouses.

I still think I am too old to be his fantasy. If he has had intense sexual fantasies about 20 somethings, I can't compete physically with that (although I am in very good shape for 45, and have taken pride in my appearance and body). Yes, you are right JL, I can compete in ways his fantasy girls cannot - but NOT if one of them became real.

In some ways what we are going through is positive - if it lasts. We are sharing on an intense emotional level about very, very personal feelings, both sexual and non. I told him now that the floodgates are open, I am not going back. We have agreed that neither one of us ever wants to go back and lose each other again. So, yes we are even talking sexual fantasies, but I know he finds it uncomfortable.

You are correct JL, I HAVE had sexual fantasies of my own over the years. But, they were brief "snipets" of thought - not related to a long term or on-going fantasy about some other man I know. That is the difference in our fantasies I believe. My H has "personalized" fantasies; fantasies about pretty young women he is in frequent contact with . This is something I find very threatening. My fantasies, while NOT usually about strangers, were not personalized; I never had even so much as a cup of coffee with the men I have had BRIEF mental images of. And I don't think of them when I am making love with my husband; I don't know why I just can't; maybe because I see myself as too old and not visually sexy enough? It makes me feel guilty I guess - I want to "be with" my husband. This is also one of my big fears - that he is not "with me" at the "critical moment" (I do not want to get too "risque" for this forum - am I?) I do occasionally have fantasies in the "third person" while making love, if you know what I mean? I sometimes have visualizations of attractive YOUNG people getting it on - people I have MADE UP in my mind, no one I know! The old research about sexual stimulation used to assert that women are NOT stimulated (sexually) visually - WRONG!

Well, got to go get that cheerleader outfit out - maybe THAT would work as a fantasy . . . . . ?

TTH,

First, I have to agree with JL. Some good advice. I would like to emphasize getting into some counseling even if things are improving. You might learn alot about each other that doesn't surface until you try some counseling.

Your initial post was to get the male perspective on your situation.... So, here goes.

I am a college professor. I had an affair that was nearly identical to your husband's emotional affair. The age difference was similar.

If you really want to know I would recommend reading Richard Taylor's book "Love Affairs" and focus on the chapter that deals with student/professor affairs (the Ivy Tower chapter). That will answer what you're looking for... if you really want a vivid and accurate description of what goes on in a professor's head who does what I did (and likely your husband).

My emotional need that was unmet is Admiration. It wasn't the sex, it wasn't the physical attraction. I suspect (as others have) that this is the case with you, and perhaps your spouse has some peculiar ways of having that emotional need met and you haven't figured it out yet, or, maybe there's an enthusiasm issue - I can't say for sure.

As a professor, I get showered with respect and admiration. Receiving signals of admiration from young attractive female students make you feel like a God. Your ego is stroked. It is, literally, like a high. Having an emotional affair is an incomparable human experience, almost indescribable. The feelings are just so intense. You stand in front of the class, where everyone is silent and most students are looking up to you, jotting down your words as you talk, and there's always - literally always, at least 2 or 3 very attractive girls in each class who look at you in an admirable way. They're usually the girls whose names you learn first, even if you don't intentionally set out to do this. On average at least one of these students is overtly flirtatious and they respond enthusiastically to the slighest return of flirtation - slightly higher frequency of eye contact in class, a quick glance during an exam, 'harmless' witty comments on exams or homework, etc. It's not uncommon to get suggestive content in female student's homework and an occasional home number written at the end of the final exam. Having an affair with a teacher is just as much of a fantasy for many of them as it is for the teacher. They see the professor as obviously smart, educated, powerful, and respected. It's a potentially explosive situation just waiting for a single spark.

Each semester a fresh crop of students cycles through and the pattern starts all over again. Variety. And they're all young. In many ways these girls are seen as ideal to most men because they're in their prime as far as beautiful women go. I am constantly asked about this part of the job from other male friends who are not professors. They would LOVE to be in my profession just for these "benefits." And once you have tenure they can't fire you for having inappropriate relations with students. You almost have to have a big lawsuit or be convicted of something serious.

I didn't pursue this career for those reasons at all. It wasn't even a consideration. In fact, I didn't even notice that much of the flirtation was flirtation until my marriage was deteriorating and I started to engage in "innocent" responses to what I thought were "innocent" flirtations. What an eye opener.

That's my perspective and my guess your husband is in a similar environment. Go get Richard Taylor's book and read that chapter.

-R.B.

xxxoooxxx <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> [B][/B]

<small>[ February 18, 2004, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: Rainie ]</small>

Trust is a long time in returning once its lost, so are your feelings of hurt. no one likes to think their spouse doesnt want to be with them or find them attractive anymore.... just keep going on and the trust will return and your feelings will fade.

forgiveness is easy its the forgeting thats hard.

As to the admiring of young females or any female in that instance Im 32 and yes i have looked at other women from time to time in passing. And yes I have admired the packaging so to speak but as to sexual fantasize about them? no. When i was younger (and unmarried) that was a resounding YES. after being married for almost ten years I appreciate everything about my wife especially her imperfections even though she hates her imperfections.

I just found out about an affair that happened 2 years ago last week and I know for you its hard not to think about what you discovered but I find it easier to just talk about "us" with my wife and not dwell on what I know. Sometimes I do think about it and I get angry but to think about it doesnt help "us".

time and alot of MEANINGFUL talk, and change will heal you.....

my prayers are with you
cliff

Once again, thank you to all who have replied. RickB, thank you for your perspective, and the suggestion of the book. I looked for it at B & N today; they did not have it, but I can order it. Your comments about the student/professor dynamics is nothing new to me. You see, I WAS my husband’s student - 25 years ago. I know all about the seductiveness of the knowledgeable, older man. I found my husband (then and now) attractive and desirable, possibly because he was 12 years older than me and I saw his sophistication and maturity sexy. And, the fact that he was interested in ME was of course a big turn on. This very interesting, intelligent, kind and attractive man was interested in ME!? The fact that I had always been attracted to older, intelligent men did not hurt either. But, I did not sleep with him just because of a “fantasy”. I feel in love with him, and he said he loved me. I was a 20 year old virgin. I had always respected myself enough to insure that my “first time” would be for love - and it was! And, 25 years later, he is still my “one and only”. We have enjoyed very good SF together, and until the past 2 years or so, had what I considered above average EF as well.

So, because I am VERY aware of the powerful sexual/fantasy component at work here on a first hand basis, I am particularly concerned/threatened. You mention that you have had your share of “come ons” or offers over the years - I am assuming from the context of your remarks that you resisted, but that the mental stimulation was still quite wonderful? My husband has said that he has also had several sexual offers over the years, and has always declined because he loves ME, and we also share a wonderful marriage in so many ways. But, this latest “infatuation” bordered on the verge of something that at least in my H’s mind, went much deeper. It screamed out longing! And, I have such a hard time understanding it. I did some “speed reading” of other relationship books at B&N, and some of what I read confirmed my suspicions. One book had “10 nasty little secrets about men” - one was that ALMOST all men WANT to sleep with many other women; the main reason they do not is fear of getting caught. It stated that most men would have multiple sexual affairs if they absolutely knew they would never get caught. I am afraid that I now know this is true. It is such a shock to me though, because, if you read my previous posts, my H NEVER even seemed to look at other women, and also made derisive comments about other leering husbands. He always, ALWAYS professed to me that I was all he was interested in; he made me feel totally confident and totally reassured. This worked for him in many ways obviously, most importantly in that I felt so sexually confident with him that I have always been an eager and receptive partner. Now I have uncovered a pattern of deceit and lies that have quite possibly gone on for years. I now see him differently, and I don’t like what I see or feel; I feel like he is a “pig” - just like most other men!?

I am still quite interested in buying the book you suggest; maybe it will give me further insights? More importantly, maybe it will give my H some insight into his own behavior, and his need to be the “hero” and for worship. I am absolutely certain that what you say about the admiration is a very, very powerful aphrodisiac. What IS IT with you men anyway? Why the constant NEED for ego stroking? You know, women like to be admired too? My job is tough, and emotionally straining. I do a great deal of good for other people in my line of work. But, because I am not an “academic” I do not feel very admired by my husband. My husband admires and respects academic achievement above all else I think, and to him his majors (students) represent fresh ideas, and youthfulness full of possibility and endless options. I am a white coat professional, and I don’t think he admires ME much, although he knows how hard I work. He respects me, but I know he finds my work boring and sad and often filled with despair. Anyway, as I stated before in an earlier post, I guess I just got tired of playing the “cheerleader” all the time, and not getting much of this in return. I do know how much he craves approval and admiration, and am again working very hard on this. I have shared with him MY needs, and he is trying very hard. But, I will find it very difficult to be as close to him as before if he continues in his emotional fantasy land.

Me - BS (?) 45
H - WS of EA 56
Years married - 23
Years together - 25

RickB, wanted you to know that I ordered the book "Love Affairs" by Richard Taylor. I am interested in learning more about what goes on in a man's mind, esp. a college professor. My husband is also going to try to articulate to me, in writing, why he has always had these needs. I speed-read another book at B&N the other day as well; I think it was "Why men stray/Why men stay". In it the author (male psychologist I think) said that ALMOST all men WANT to cheat and have these desires and fantasies. He said that if men could be absolutely guaranteed that they would never get caught (including venereal diseases, etc) then ALMOST all men would cheat on their wives or steady girlfriends/fiance's. He said men absolutely CRAVE variety, and that in a long term relationship - and the longer the worse it gets, the more you crave something different. He likened it to having to have the same meal to eat everyday for the rest of your life. He said it could have been your favorite meal at one time, and is still your favorite, but you crave something else now and then? I think I agree unfortunately. However, he (author) was sexist and definitely gave me the feeling that he didn't think that women were this way due to their biology and evolutionary history (protecting the fetus/infant, vs. spreading the seed). I think this is BS. Women have fantasies also. I think that overall we do a better job of avoiding an affair than men. In my case, I have always been very, very careful in my dealings with male "friends". I have had a few "come-ons" too over the years. But I have always been very careful to protect my heart from other men. This is because I love and respect my husband so much.

TTH

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In it the author (male psychologist I think) said that ALMOST all men WANT to cheat and have these desires and fantasies. He said that if men could be absolutely guaranteed that they would never get caught (including venereal diseases, etc) then ALMOST all men would cheat on their wives or steady girlfriends/fiance's.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think the above statement by the author is a slap in the face of many good, civilized and religious men with high morals out there.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He said men absolutely CRAVE variety, and that in a long term relationship - and the longer the worse it gets, the more you crave something different. He likened it to having to have the same meal to eat everyday for the rest of your life. He said it could have been your favorite meal at one time, and is still your favorite, but you crave something else now and then? I think I agree unfortunately.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can&#8217;t believe what I have just read&#8230; How on earth can the author compare EATING with something serious and wrong as CHEATING!!! I&#8217;m sorry but I think it&#8217;s totally insane!

Sorry - double post.

<small>[ February 19, 2004, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: TotallyTrustedHim ]</small>

I believe that the author was being deliberately flippant to make a (HIS) point. This was definitely NOT a scientifically based research book. And, I could be entirely wrong that the author was a psychologist, as I am going entirely by memory and had looked at several books. I got the feeling that the book was mainly opinion, and was based upon "interviews" with several/many heterosexual men. When the author stated that "most men would like to have affairs and sleep with many women" he did NOT define what he meant by "most". My assumption was that he disregarded MOST heterosexual males who are devoutly religious, have hormonal or psychological problems/on psych meds., or who recently got involved with/married to their "dream girl" in his definition of "most men". This is my assumption alone. Perhaps a total work of fiction, yet I found it hit a nerve with how I personally am feeling and believing right now.

TTH

TTH,

I think you may be wrong about all men wanting to cheat. When I was a young man AND NOT married, I enjoyed what I would call a very active batchlorhood. As I have gotten older that lifestyle doesn't hold near the attraction, and since I am married, I simply avoid it all together.

I do feel that your H's profession makes the "power" seductive, but I don't think it guarentees that you will lose or have lost out.

I wanted to return to what I was trying to say earlier and doing a poor job of it. I meant every word of the fact that you can compete and you have many advantages over a young coed. Experience being a huge one.

But, I was thinking and not articulating very well is perhaps a slight change in the relationship. You exercising more power in it. Making sure he PLEASED you. You see love often develops by giving to someone. His natural situation is that he has power over the students, but he is also GIVING something to them. They dynamic of giving often seems to engender attachment and then love.

So in your efforts to rebuild this marriage, one thing to consider is that he is more "giving" to you. How would this work? I don't know as I don't truely know you or your H. But I sort of see this as an act of contrition on his part, an act of giving to you on his part, and by you receiving from him in a loving way, you two rebuild what has faded.

You stated that you got tired of admiring him, and you got tired and were NOT ENTHUSIASTIC. What would it take for you to become enthusiastic again? That is what I am asking. Very likely you got tired because YOUR needs where not being met as well as they could be.

So I am thinking a slightly new dynamic may be useful. You still love him, you still give him admiration and enthusiasim, but he needs to give to you first he needs to submit to YOUR needs in order to ensure that he gets what he wants.

I am NOT talking about a MASTER/SLAVE situation, but I do think that changing this abit will make things seem new. It will give you what you need and thereby insure he gets what he needs, but MOST of all I think it will lead to you both having an better marriage and a deeper love for one another.

You see a young girl cannot compete with that. She doesn't have a chance in the world. You know too much and you are far too formidable. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Please talk with your H. You sort of ran out of gas for a reason, and he needs to fill your tank. If he will do this, I think you both will profit greatly.

I sound like far too good a woman to lose and I bet he knows that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Plus, you are still so young. You have a lot of good years ahead of you.

God Bless,

JL

JL. Thank you again for your insight and help. I can see that you offer freely of yourself, and have been a source of great support to many who visit this forum. You have helped me more than you will ever know. I am trying my best to rebuild the marriage we had - and my husband is trying as well. He continues to do things that make me doubt him, and make the mistrust "demon" rise out of me. He continues to hide the fact he has had other contact with her outside of the classroom/school - that he stoped to visit her on Friday where she works for instance, "just to say hi". He says he sees her only as a "friend". How can I continue to believe this when I know what he originally was feeling for her was much deeper? Do his actions (continued contact with her) really speak louder than his words to me? He continues to proclaim that I am the ONLY woman he has ever truly love, that he will love me forever, and that he will NEVER leave me. He continues to say I am his "soul-mate". In the meantime, I am left struggling with trying to understand his need for contact with her as a "friend", and a few other "obsessions" he has admitted to over the years (none of which were a PA if I can believe him). We continue to communicate quite alot with each other, via both conversation and written "letters". The lines of communication are open, we are closer now then we have been in a few years, both sexually and emotionally, we are both agreeing that we both were starting to take each other slightly for granted, and can both see that now. I can FEEL his love for me - but his actions continue to rip me apart. The discussion of his (rare?) emotional attachments with other women will continue . . . . .

TTH

First session with licensed clinical psychologist tomorrow;this was what I was searching for in terms or educational background for a therapist. She has 28 years experience, much of it in marriage counseling; don't know if she knows of Dr. Harley or his methods. I need to talk with someone who can, hopefully, see this with an un-biased viewpoint, as I have not shared this with anyone other than my husband and the folks here on this forum. In some ways, I hope that she (counselor) does think I am making more out of this than there was? But, I doubt it . . . . . Anyway, I need a new/clear perspective on this. Wish us luck.

TTH

Just a couple of observations - Lisa brought up a very valid point about flirting, and I think this pertains to both sexes. Some see no problem with "innocent" flirting in the workplace or any place outside of the M. I strongly disagree with that concept of "innocent" fun. "Innocent" flirting is like waving a red flag in front of a raging bull when it's done to a man who's been without affection or real communication with a woman for nearly a year. Many times a flirt doesn't have evil intent but there are also what I call "professional flirts" who know full well what they are doing, and they get off on it. Of course, if I respond to "innocent flirting" it can be perceived as harassment and I could end up working for them. I have found flirts to be people who need that constant stroking of attention and they enjoy drawing attention to themselves. They use this as an affirmation technique.

I also agree with RickB's analysis of what can happen when you are a male in an influential position and the dangers associated with "innocent flirting". In my job, I have had many instances of females trying the flirting (and some very blatant advances) angle to keep from being cited or to deflect attention away from their violation. Some attempts are so juvenile that it's laughable but I still have to be so very careful. We are required to review and sign a Code of Ethics statement annually. We are also subject to mandatory training sessions specifically addressing proper conduct in the workplace and especially when we are on the road. In today's open society, and especially as a male, we have to do all necessary to protect ourselves against even the hint of impropiety.

And yes, at least in my circle of influence I have seen a clear double standard. Flirting by women is basically winked at but if a guy flirts then the ladies are quick to jump on it (though some get off on it) and turn it in to a supervisor as harassment or unprofessional behavior. I saw a young officer bumped off the force because he was set up, and suckered, by an "innocent flirting" female officer with an agenda. Surprisingly (not!) she was promoted to his position after he was terminated.

Hmm, well from another angle: I was on the recieving end of that sort of fixation from an older man when I was 20.

I think if men had any inkling how ludicrous and bizarre they appear to the objects of their fixations in such situations they'd be too embarrassed to indulge in such fantasies.

The older man in my case did a fairly good job at first of mostly just being friendly. There were a few little things that I later identified as crossing the line into inappropriate, but at the time I bought his "simple friendliness" act. He got to be rather a pest, calling me up and asking me to see movies with him and so on. I always said no. Once he "dropped in" to see me unannounced. I had the all too common problem of being young enough that I hadn't learned yet when to just go ahead and be rude because some people refuse to understand anything else. I had also been raised to be polite to my elders and being anything less than gracious to a man his age and a course instructor was simply unthinkable. I tried being just barely polite to him and no more, but he was one of those people who are very very good at taking advantage of politeness to shove themselves in where they are not wanted -- I've since then seen other men with crushes on young girls do the same, seemingly oblivious to the fact that the girls can barely stand them. In the end he let drop one or two phrases that made it clear he thought we were "dating", and since I was avoiding him and being barely polite to him, this convinced me that he was living in some kind of sick dream world and being polite was simply going to make things worse -- it certainly wasn't getting rid of him. So I took to being blunt and telling him I wanted neither his attention nor his company. He tried to flatter and cajole me out of it and insisted on not believing me. In the end I had to be flat out mean to get rid of the pest.

I bumped into him a couple of years later and found out that in his twisted recollection we had "dated" and he had no idea why I had "thrown him over". Bizarre.

The whole thing from my perspective at the time was just strange and senseless -- the notion that there could be anything romantic between us made even less sense than old Greek myths of people falling in love with trees or a fish or something. I'm not saying this to be mean, but just to explain how something like this really looks from the perspective of a 20 year old girl.

Edited to add:

I have since then learned that some girls that age are not as innocent-hearted as I was and do freely use their power of attraction to manipulate men, including older men, when they can. I've heard a number of such girls describe such situations. The common thread throughout was that they all found the notion of actual romantic attraction between themselves and men old enough to be their fathers a joke, but since the men in question were "dippy" enough to come up with such ideas, they thought themselves entitled to take advantage of it.

<small>[ February 26, 2004, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: mineownself ]</small>

Mine - You gave some great insights. I guess manipulation can come from anyone at anytime in anyplace, huh? I agree that older men look ridiculous when they reach for the proverbial "dangling carrot". Same principle applies for the "innocent flirt". They seek validation and affirmation, many times concealing an inner hurt and rejection. Usually it winds up with two people getting hurt, and neither may be aware that their conduct is actually hurtful to the other.

I guess the part I find most amazing is how resistant such men are to being driven off. They interpret deliberate rudeness and other attempts to get rid of them as flirtation and invitation. Deliberately malicious manipulation and hurtful behavior they blindly fail to see. However mean it may be, I don't wonder that girls laugh at them -- if a girl is willing to settle for willfully stupid, why not go for a handsome and willfully stupid fellow of her own generation? At least with a young guy there's a reasonable hope that he'll grow up at some point.

I think sometimes we overuse the term "flirting" and/or it means different stuff to each of us.

While I would NEVER consider 'flirting' in an offensive manner with a subordinate or co-worker, I've been known to be openly friendly to everyone in general - and considered 'flirtatious'.

So, the question is --- Is overt friendliness 'flirting'? And if it is - what specifically is the line?

*noted disclaimer* --- I readily admit that I have issues of rejection and abandonment - so the idea that I am somehow openly seeking appreciation is actually quite valid in either situation. Given THAT --- is it wrong to be openly friendly/flirtatious - when the intent is not sexual in nature?

Okay -- now that I just opened myself up for ridicule --- I think I'll go to bed... maybe.

Jan

Nothing ridiculous about it and you pose a very valid question - where is the line drawn? I will offer this as a man - would this behavior be appropriate if his W was present? Will it lead him, in ANY way, to be drawn to you in a fashion OTHER than business or professional? Is it appropriate if your H was present? What is the motivation - to titillate, to draw attention, or to tease? Even subconsciously? Is it really necessary or will it serve any useful purpose?

I know men. I know what makes them tick. I know our thought processes and I also know how we can easily misconstrue the most innocent wink or flirt into something more serious.

As a Christian, I also will offer this perspective. Would you innocently flirt or be overly affectionate with Jesus in your presence? Would He approve? Would He be edified? As a man, I have to constantly think of Him being with me in everything I do, all that I see, everything I put my hand to. Was it necessary to give that lingering touch, that wink, that off-hand comment, that overboard/gushing compliment, that longer than necessary pause at the receptionist's desk?

An easier reply might be this - If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck........you get the picture.