My WS insists it is over and I need to move on if we are to move forward. She insists I drove her away five years ago and I need to begin to admit that (what????). At that time a coworker of hers cameon to a girlfriend (another coworker) at a company meeting. My W did not see exactly what happened but had to become involved with her company's HR department....my W also had to work with this man. She was very scared he was going to come on to her...enough so that we had fake alarm signs installed on our property. It was a daily mood swing up and down with her. And, this became the daily conversation topic over that summer...until, later in the summer, her boss told me he thought she was overreacting. I told her I would like to start discussing something else, I cannot solve the problem, be alert but what can I do?. This hurt her incredibly and in her mind drove her away from me. It came out later that the guy had a past history of sexual aggression and her company let him go.

Well, that was five years ago...we travelled since then, camped, skiied, made love, dinner, bought a new home, etc. Did lots of fun things together....and I never knew how unhappy she truly was....and about a year ago a different coworker apparently started paying attention to her. This led her to have an A.....and now it is supposedly over but she is not open or honest with me...does not share cell phone bills, says to me I have found out everything all along, you will see that I no longer talk to him, etc. She says "I don't know" to MC.

So, I am supposed to just let go and hope for the best? How to do this? We had a big talk last night where I told her I will be telling the OMW (which I have not done)...she mentioned consider us over if I do this and move out of the BR.

A little background....she has said I do not listen or respect her....I have needs too, she does not want to be treated like a piece of meat...we have made love infrequently over the last few months...I have tried to explain to her you have no idea what you have done to me, I have visions of you both in my head, insecure feelings about us, etc. She said she needs to be emotionally close with me in order to make love, she does not feel that, etc. It was typical back and forth, who is hurt more than the other, etc.

How to move on without MC? She is a career girl, makes lots of money..does not need me from a $ standpoint. I told her I only want an open and honest R, which is not in place at that moment.

Do I just sweep this up and leave it behind? Hope this does not happen again? She travels alot, I would never really know unless she became noticeably distant from me.

I have tried to follow the MB principles and meet her needs as best I can. I brought home the questionnaires last fall, she did not want to fill them out then, I was force feeding her information. She has not picked them up nor the MC paperwork I brought home a month ago.

Hello,

It is essential that you contact the OM's wife.
Otherwise your wife and the OM will be able to start up again anytime she wishes. The fact that she threatens you not to tell indicates the affair is probably still continuing. She is also giving you the message that she values the OM over you and your marriage. It is a key point of marriage builders that the betrayed spouses should be made aware of the affairs as soon as possible. The light of the affair must be seen by all. Do you allow her to manipulate you. These are the consequences of her affair. If you do not tell then you are simply enabling her to continue or start up with the affair in the future. She is still disrespecting you by trying to manipulate the affair to her advantage. Do not fall for it. I wish you luck.

Sounds like my WS... he says if I contact the OW, it will be over between us. Although this isn't the reason I haven't contacted her.... I haven't because I know her and have for over 4 years. Our sons play on the same sport team, which my H happens to coach. I did run into her at one of the games and asked if she thought....WHEN GOD SAID THOU SHALL NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR'S WIFE, IF HE ALSO MEANT HUSBANDS.

That was my piece.... I want to call her up and tell her off... but then, I don't need to act like someone on Jerry Springer.... although it's crossed my mind. It's also crossed my mind to report her to the authorities because of some issues with her son, and show up at her church or inform some friends who also go to that church. Wonder how the congregation would feel about her scarlet letter? But I don't see any sense in being vengeful... although I feel like if I did all those things she would see she's not playing with an idiot here. I don't know what to tell you...

Your W is obviously still in a fog, too. If my WS's OP had a spouse I think I would definitely tell them, but only after you are absolutely positive and have proof of the A. Don't just call telling them about speculations and theories.... you need to confront them with solid evidence. Of course, my WS told me he was and who it was... so I have my proof, but unfortunately, she's divorced again.... maybe she thinks the 4th time with my H will be a charm.

SHEESH.... Good Luck and much prayers.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nature:
<strong>
Well, that was five years ago...we travelled since then, camped, skiied, made love, dinner, bought a new home, etc. Did lots of fun things together....and I never knew how unhappy she truly was....and about a year ago a different coworker apparently started paying attention to her. This led her to have an A </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your story is similar to mine. Apparently my WW was also unhappy, or at least not being completly fulfilled in our marriage. For years, we raised our kids, made love, traveled, etc. as a happy couple. Now I am expected to believe that she was unfufilled all of those years. Does that make sense?

Maybe she was somewhat unfulfilled, but as others on this site have said "She is repsonsible for 50% of the problems in the marriage". How can you or I be held responsible for the situation if our spouses do not clearly inform us?

I think this story of being unhappy, unfulfilled or whatever is a lie. Like all good lies it has elements of truth in it. Every marriage has times when one or both partners are not at their happiest, are not completely comfortable, not completely experiencing all life has to offer. The proper course of action is to work with the spouse to fix the situation for BOTH spouses. Not run off and have an affair, violate moral and religious standards and send the family into months or years of agony and pain.

<small>[ February 17, 2004, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: JustinExplorer ]</small>

This is a serious dilemma. I do not want to push her further away, I am trying to meet her EN as best I can...at the same time I am basically getting little from her but our R seems better than it was a few months ago. She won a trip to Mexico through work and we are going together in a few months. I do have cell phone records from 12/15-1/4 and there are a few calls, not many, from her to the OM. They end early January. This is the time we were celebrating her birthday. Of course, they do work together (he is an out of state co-worker) and need to talk business here or there.

BryanP-I am not ready to drop the nuke and let the OMW know. However, I will if I uncover solid evidence of the A continuing. I believe I will know if something is going on by her withdrawl from me.

I also know through a mutual friend that nothing has happened between them, at least as of 1/10 when my W met with our friend....at that time the feedback indicated my W was mixed up emotionally about the OM and really liked the changes she saw in me the last few months. Apparently the OM let my W know he was not going to leave his W but they could continue a little something on the side....what an Ahole!! My assumption, through information gathered over the last few months from our friend, is the guy jilted her because he knew I was now in the picture and knew of his involvement with her. I am sure this hurt her and made her think about what she has done to us....at least a little bit...and she did show remorse last month when we spoke about us.

JustinExplorer: this kind of jibberish from her just slays me, like you. I sit and hear her tell me I drove her away??? Like, if I really wanted to hurt you or drive you away, do you think I would do it by telling you I would like to discuss something else once in awhile???? Of course not, I would go to strip clubs, meet other women and really disrespect you, not return phone calls, etc.....so give me a break with this BS!!! This is where I tend to LB big time...I just can't take this crap any more. This seems to be her excuse now, rationalization, etc.

So, we tried to agree yesterday morning to let things go and move on...of course, there is no real plan, no boundaries, etc. She tells me she no longer talks to OM and I will see this when I check phone records.

Her big issue is Listen/Respect...and she does not want to be treated like a piece of meat. Of course, I have needs too...and my desires have been extraordinary the last few months and I have tried, sometimes too much I guess, to come on to her. I did tell her I am tired of being rejected by her and will lay off any physical contact...she said she did not reject me often and would still like some contact, hand holding, whatever..I told her I now know what I need to do over the next few months (I need to satisfy myself which just kills me...why am I still M??)

We snuggled early this morning together. And, for the first time in awhile, she turned to kiss me in bed. She left to go to a meeting, hug and nice kiss goodbye and said she would call later...and then called 45 minutes later to chat and BS, acted cute on the phone, etc.

So, I don't know....I am going to try and keep my distance, not LB and see if she pursues me.

*Bump*

Maybe there are others who have insight. Thanks in advance. This whole thing is the worst possible experience I have had to deal with.

I can only change myself....I truly know this.

Nature, don't give up. Be patient. Ask her how you can help her.

I am envious of you. Yes, I am! My WW has moved out and I get no snuggles, no kisses, not much of anything. Snuggling, kissing and much more <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> are reserved for the OM.

Right now I wish I was in your shoes. Have you read Surviving an Affair? It is a great book with stories about how marriages were saved.

Nature,
At this point it is hard to separate the truth from the fog. When she says you drove her away - well, maybe you did, and maybe she re-wrote history in her head to make you the bad guy so she wouldn't feel so guilty.

At this point, (even though the truth is very important to you emotionally) it is good to leave some of these un-answered questions and ask you self what is the best way to recover.

Perhaps these things would help:

1. You can't teach someone that doesn't want to learn. Even if you give them the information, they just won't get it. You need to run a good plan A until she is ready to assist you in recovery.

2. Men really are different from Women. ( Men are from Mars, Women from Venus)
After I came here it took about 1 1/2 years for my marriage to get really good. (We did not have an A to contend with) My wife told me once that the way to get her interested in SF was to not be interested in SF myself. I'll leave you to think about that one for a while, but they are wired different, and it takes time to learn about what they need - and how to give it to them. I think it took me at least 6 months before I had a good grasp, and I thought I did the whole time - it's only looking back that I can see my lack. It won't work now like it did the first time around when you were first dating.

3. I don't know if you have HNHN, and SAA yet, but I recommend you get them and read the books clear through. Having the examples in the books helped me be able to understand her much better, and gave me a map to follow in my improvement. One of the best helps for me was the book "Love Busters" but that is what I had a problem with. If you have the same problem, get that one too.

4. Here is a link to a letter that one man wrote to his W about why he wanted to know more - perhaps it would help you write one yourself.
Josephs letter
I recommend writing it down and leaving it for her to read and think about. If you tell her, I don't think it will have near the effect on her.

5. This is going to take time.
Your marriage didn't come apart in a few weeks, and it won't be put back together quickly. Your biggest and most useful tool will be time, and patience. (credit for this one goes to JL.)
Please take the long term view - make your plan, and work it. Look at it in 2 months, and take stock of where you are. It's hard to see progress from week to week, but over a few months it is often evident. At 9 months I wondered if there was real progress, but at 12 months I could see a breakthrough, and at 18 months it was like night and day. Now it has been two years since I found this web site, and things are so good that I almost can't believe it, but I go home to her and it's still the same every day, so it must be true.

6. Dr Harley knows what he is talking about.
If you read the books and do what you learn, I think you will see the same improvement. You will improve yourself no matter what, and those improvements will be yours to keep, no matter what your W does.

It does sound like you have a very good chance for success WITH HER, but YOU will do well no matter what, if you will learn and put into practice what you read.

Last of all - you can't force her to change, and you can't save your marriage by force. You can only change yourself, and hope she responds. You make changes, you improve yourself - you find what you can do to make things better, and they almost always respond.

Please don't get discouraged. (you will, but you can get over and through that.) You will have lots of bad days, but tomorrow is always a new day.

Start - and then don't give up.

SS

<small>[ February 18, 2004, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nature:
<strong> My WS insists it is over and I need to move on if we are to move forward. She insists I drove her away five years ago and I need to begin to admit that (what????). At that time a coworker of hers cameon to a girlfriend (another coworker) at a company meeting. My W did not see exactly what happened but had to become involved with her company's HR department....my W also had to work with this man. She was very scared he was going to come on to her...enough so that we had fake alarm signs installed on our property. It was a daily mood swing up and down with her. And, this became the daily conversation topic over that summer...until, later in the summer, her boss told me he thought she was overreacting. I told her I would like to start discussing something else, I cannot solve the problem, be alert but what can I do?. This hurt her incredibly and in her mind drove her away from me. It came out later that the guy had a past history of sexual aggression and her company let him go.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IOW, your W was not overreacting. This guy wasn't just a tactless Romeo who could be discouraged by sufficient applciations of the word "no", he was downright scary, from the sound of it.

I'm not justifying your W's affair, but I see her point about you driving her away. Her legitimate concerns over her safety (which you put as fear of the guy "coming on to her"-do you realize how much that miniminizes her worry?) were dimissed not just by her boss, but apparently by you. If one of your kids was in jeopardy, would you have taken the attitude that you couldn't solve the problem and wanted to discuss something else?

There is a really sad story going on right now that you may not be aware of. A serial killer who murdered 7 or 8 women that we know of is up for trial. It turns out that ten or so years ago he was reported several times for peeping in windows. Apparently rather than arresting him, the police just ran him off. He was seen as a nuisance rather than a threat. Now the police believe that he was really stalking potential victims at the time, not just getting his jollies by peeping.

It is this kind of thing that makes women furious-we're told say no, close our blinds, and not to overreact-until someone gets raped or killed.

Be glad it wasnt your wife. As bad as her affair was, you have a chance to repair your marriage.

Thanks for all of the replies...it has really made me think about us.

StillSeeking: yes, what is the best way to recover? It looks like I need to let things go and see how we progess together. And, be patient and not worry so much if we are not ML that often, hopefully SF will come in time when she is more comfortable with me. Not thinking about it will help, sometime its hard (no pun intended). They are wired differently..and maybe it's taken this event to occur to look at our R closer.

I actually brought home the "need to know" letter last fall and showed it to her and tried to get her to tell me what happened...it did not work, although she confessed to a ONS and nothing more....I know otherwise. This is my hangup all along, the need to know, honesty, truth, etc....ultimately how can I trust is the issue...and the point of my post.

Elspeth: I really appreciate another woman's point of view on this board....I had spoken about this issue with a few of our friends...and I tried to explain I was there listening, encouraging her for several months.....until I heard her boss say his comment...which then led to mine. I did not realize the ramifications of my comments....since we typically discuss her job/career/life and not really mine (most of the time. The women I spoke with did not think it was so detrimental because of our activities over the next 5 years...how could that lead to your Spouse to sleep with someone else? I don't think I could do this...but, we are all subject to temptation. I now realize my wife want to just vent to me daily about the issue.

Thanks to all and wish me LUCK.

Prayers for Everyone!!

It's always hard to know what will happen. If you don't get the honesty you are looking for, your marriage will never be rully recovered. You can think about that, and then realize that your best chance to fix it is probably right now - if it can be fixed at all.

It's not good to go on and pretend things will be fine when things are not correctly addressed.

Some well meaning friends and indeed some counselers will tell you that it's all in the past and you need to move on, but Dr Harley, (and from all I have seen it is true) says honesty is the only way to recover.

So, it may still take plan B - Separation now, or separation later.

If you can live forever with the attitude she has now then you can just go on doing it her way, but if you cannot, then perhaps a more drastic approach is needed. I mean, she is pretty much saying that she does not need to be honest with you, and you can just accept that. What kind of marriage is that?

She doesn't understand what it takes to recover -

If you have done a good plan A for about 6 months, consider changing your plan. If you have not, do that first, and then have a talk with her about your needs. She is more likely to want to meet your needs (including honesty) if hers are being met.

I also recommend you call the Harleys for counseling - they can work with YOU to make a recovery plan so you are not just guessing.

You sound very, very frustrated, and it is natural for what has happened, but unless these very important things are addressed, you won't be able to heal, and your marriage will not be what it could and should be.

I also recommend you don't try to talk about it on a day to day basis, but do your best to be the man of her dreams and then every so often tell her your feelings -
" I love you, I feel we are making progess but there are still some things I can't get past, and I don't know how to deal with them. I feel they are holding us back - I need your help.."

It's hard to know when to talk, my W has told me more than once "can we just relax tonight, and not have a relationship talk?"

It will be a while before you can expect to get your needs met - and that's why it is good to set a time limit. If you have a goal of 6 months in front of you, and you can remember that whenever you are feeling down, it helps you to put your needs in the backgroud and keep working your plan. Remember that it isn't a permanant thing, and you can use POJA as you go along too, and negotiate to have some of your needs met. If you can make it a win/win situation, then have her meet your needs also.

I really believe the Harleys could help you a great deal - I hope you can call for counseling and get help on a solid plan.

As you learn, you will get better at this - and it won't seem so hard. Keep working on it.

SS