I read so many of your posts and your great advice to others here. I'm really at a cross roads in dealing with my Hs past affairs.

Would you please have a look at my post on the recovery board.

Thanks

MK

Marykat, I really don't know what to say to you except that you may have to accept him how he is. Infidelity is not an aberration of character with your H, but rather a way of life. Marriage Builders principles are more designed to address infidelity that occurs as an aberration and often from unmet needs. I don't get the sense that you are not meeting your H's needs or that he inadvertantly got tangled up in an isolated affair, but that this is his way of life.

Let's say you do find out about his affairs and confront him, do you think you can change him?

Dear Melody

I absolutely know that I can't change him. I've realized that through this past year. I know this is a life choice for him. I have hoped that the realization of losing his family and self respect would help him to "see the light" and give Him the desire to stop this.

I will leave him for my mental health if he continues this lifestyle. I've confronted him about other women and as of last Nov he says he's trying to make our marriage work. Now I'm seeing signs that may not be the case.

Again, if he can't be faithful and wants the thrill of the chase, why doesn't he tell me and let me go?

MK

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by marykat:
<strong>

Again, if he can't be faithful and wants the thrill of the chase, why doesn't he tell me and let me go?

MK </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because he has no respect for you. If he can get away with it, he would have no reason to change.

Do you think he is mentally ill? Or is this a character issue?

here's my babble..

Couple of things..
are you in counselling...
and is he familiar with marriagebuilder principles...

There are definite love busters....disrepectful judgements...name calling....yelling...etc...and then there are actions that are boundaries and necessary for recovery...that the WS will often interrperet into LB's or attempt to create them in to LBs..yet they aren't...

WS committed to real recovery need to take onus of responsibility in rebuilding the trust...not you....

You should not accept his attempt to make your concerns which are valid since we are talking about and to someone who has a proven track record of being untrustworthy....

I was upset when he got home and he launched on me that I was never going to "let it go".

answer back..
you are correct I am not going to let it go...I am not going to pretend it never happened I am going to stick by you and me and this marriage and work through these issues of not trusting...

don't fight don't powerstruggle...
don't yell
speak your peace clearly and calmly...
same message over and over....

"When you are late I naturally think you are calling someone else...that is exactly what you used to do...actions speak louder than words...if you are concerned that I feel this way...perhaps you should act in a way that alleviates my concerns."..

If you are in counselling then you should bring this up with your counsellor..
you two need to POJA a plan on how to deal with your triggers...and if he wants recovery he should be in some agreement of seeing how these are logical things you need to feel safe...

calling if late...
being accountable
etc...

you must keep turning onus of responsibility back on him in a non LB way...
You must not accept his insanity that you need to get over it..
real recovery takes about two year...
tell him that...

False recovery is more scary than a rocky at times recovery....

He said I needed to decide whether I really wanted this to work or not.

you answer back..
"No dear you need to decide whether you really want this to work or not..and if you do..that if you are running late you need to call me...."
Because I have decided for myself that I will not accept a husband in my life that lies to me...that I believe in and value the truth...and I value that quality in my husband as well...and I am willing to work with you on resolving these issues...
NOT by pretending they don't exist...

this is not a power struggle...these are not unrealistic demands...these are simpley what you value and will accept in your marriage...

tell him..
"dear it is not a bad thing to want to be able to trust my husband...that's all I want to be able to do...and you need to help me with that...."

ask him what is his plan to earn your trust back..
and if you are afraid to ask him ...or he doesn't see that as a priority...you aren't really in recovery then are you....

ark

Melody

I think it's a character issue. I have given him my boundries. As of my last discovery last Oct that he was still in C with long term A OW, I had started plans to separate and return to the US. H saw he was losing me and the kids. He begged for me to stay and I have seen good things. He was firmly told that if I discover renewed C or another ow, that's it.

I really believe it's true that this isn't about me. We have a good marriage. We get along, no real fights, go out, have fun, spend time together. He says he can't imagine spending his life with nayone else but me.

Ark

I agree with what you've posted. I have babbled back with the same concepts that you've suggested. Thank you for some new ways to say it though.

We aren't in counseling. We live in Europe and with the language barrier it's difficult. I found one that spoke English (well, sort of). She was a nut and I would have taken anyone.

He's a little familiar with MB principles. He's read a portion of the books and I've printed off some material from the website. He's not keen on the "reading" and I've backed off on trying to educate him.

What is everyone's opinion on whether I should call this woman or not?

I want to know.

I'm tired of waiting for the "concrete" proof. How many more "well that suspicious, but not real proof" to I wait for?

MK

What is everyone's opinion on whether I should call this woman or not?

the question is what will you do with the information....

Is this the deal breaker for you..
then line your ducks up that way...

Is this just another powerstruggle...deflecting arguement of the real issues...lack of trust...

Is this a leverage tool..
I contacted this woman and confirmed contact...either we get in counselling with your JOB <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

or...what...

OR WHAT is the big questions...

if true what will YOU do....

Again, if he can't be faithful and wants the thrill of the chase, why doesn't he tell me and let me go?

Isn't the real question...why don't you let him go...

ark

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, if he can't be faithful and wants the thrill of the chase, why doesn't he tell me and let me go?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I strongly suggest your husband is narcissist and as such is NPD. Here are the guidelines as listed in the DSM (PDR for mental health caregivers):

has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements);

is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love;

believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions);

requires excessive admiration;

has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations;

is interpersonally exploitive, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends;

lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others;

is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her;

shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.

Just his cavalier attitude towards having affairs meets the criteria for NPD.

MK

I think biggest issue for you is you want him to not be what he apparently is. Its a quasi form of denial.

You also empower him by saying "why won't he let me go" when there is no reason you cannot just leave if you so choose.

Its your love for him and your fear of change that probably is driving you denial your hopes that there is a slight chance he is not the person that he appears to be.

I guess what I am saying is you don't need him to let go if you wanted to. You still love him enough to not want to let go.

Only you can decide what you can and cannot live with.

SD

You nailed it. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

MK

MK

I am SOOO sorry that I nailed it but I think you cannot heal while in denial.

I hope that if your marriage doesn't recover then you the valued person you are does.

I wish there was a magic pill one good give certain people to change them but there isn't one.

At least if you understand the truth then you can move forward.

Take care--thoughts and prayers.

Dear MK,

I read your thread in the recovery side. You have been getting good responses on both sites. Here's my 2 cents.

1. Your H is NOT in recovery. More of a denial stage of which it is evident does not satisfy your M requirements. The WS is still lurking in your home.

2. He is making you the one responsible for the changes while he continues his courses with minor adjustments. WRONG! He needs to be in the drive seat on this M recovery. You did a lot of the work already just keeping the family together and being there for him to come home to. Now he needs to do his part. Will post more about this later,.

3. His disrespect of your feelings are not to be tolerated. If he wants to make you feel guilty, then he must be up to something. This is a constant factor in false recovery.

4. Him meeting some needs (financial) but not others (affection, assurance, etc.) is NOT acceptable. Try washing 1/2 of his clothes and I mean 1/2, 1 pant leg, 1 sleeve, 1/2 a towel, etc. Try making the dinner 1/2 way , 1/2 medium stake, the other half raw, 1/2 made salad, half baked potatoe...etc. Then let him see if he likes it. Don't do it all that way, unless he is real dense but enough so he gets the point.

5. Move forward and take care of yourself. He needs to see that you are not going to put up with a cakecrawling 1/2 a H. You either want a full loving H and no WS.

I posted a thread about plan A your spouse and plan B your WS. While not implementing a full plan B, you can keep the plan B tips in your back pocket. I do. When the WS was attempting to morph into an H, he had many setbacks resulting in false recoveries. With each attempt, I learned to move to plan B quicker. He even slept in his truck a few times. Not my problem. He was disrespectful and did not make our family feel safe with his contact with the OW. My nervous episodes were his problem to solve. I was the one suffering. Was the WS suffering? No, the H was suffering. I would offer to help the H not the WS. Periodically I would even ask, which character was he today, WS or H? Depending on his answer w/b how I would react. That led him into some confusing times but no more than what I was dealing with. This technique proved helpful for me. He cake walking days became less. Now he doesn't even go that route.

Hope this helps.

L.

<small>[ February 18, 2004, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

marykat - I tend to agree with the advice you've already received, but I don't have enough info to conclude that he is a serial cheater. He might be. He might not be.

I suggest you get into some individual counseling. Tell your H that you want to get some counseling on how to handle your "concerns" about his behavior, or your perception of it. Make it sound like YOUR problem. He ought to agree. If he's not a serial cheater and you're an exaggerator, he'll jump at the chance. If he's anything else, and you're dead on, it's hard top predict how he'll react. Regardless, tell all to a counselor who will be in a better position than us to assess your situation.

WAT

<small>[ February 18, 2004, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

I'm not very good at keeping things locked inside. I haven't been sleeping well and after laying in bed for almost an hour again last night, I finally got up and took an tylenol pm. I rarely take meds. I could not endure another night of tortured tossing and turning wondering what is he up to now.

This morning we were awake early. I came out and asked him. "Who is this person?" He told me I had really lost it now and that he didn't know of this person. I told him that the card had "fell from the sky" a few weeks ago. I had written down the exact phone numbers a while back (I can't remember when, months perhaps) and I can't remember if I found the numbers on his cell phone or our home phone. Either way the only reason I wrote them down was because I was suspicious of them. So here I am with a business card and the same phone numbers on a separate paper. So I jump to my logical assumption that this is another ow.

He put on a very believeable act of not knowing her. He even asked our daughter this morning if she knew who it was. D said no. He wants to call this afternoon to try and determine who this person is.

I'm tossing the card. I will not call this person.

I feel so bad.

I don't know what to believe.

Either he should win an award for best actor in a dramatic role or I have been pushed beyond my limits and will never get over his betrayal. I will always be questioning every little thing.

Two years ago when I found the card I would have just asked. "hey who is this chick?"

Today if I see anything it pushes me over the edge. Maybe he is really doing all he can and I'm ruining our recovery with my constant questions.

I have always had a diffucult time with not making everyone happy. I really hate it when others are upset with me. I can't stand to have my H unhappy with my behavior. I know I'm the "people pleaser". So I apologized to him. If I'm wrong, I want to take responsibility for it.

Orchid

Thank you for your response. I've read your Plan A thread many times. I will give it a look once again. You're right that he's only half trying. He tells me that he's a good H, provides of us, when he's home he spends time with us, and I know he's canx some business trips lately because of my concern of his being away from home. You posted somthing to nid that I felt applied totally to me.

Orchid to Nid

"Whether it was justified or not that is what happens when there is no trust."

WAT

Thanks for taking the time. Lord knows we should be in counseling. He is hesitant to go. Again we live in Europe and I've only found 1 couselor here who speaks English. I was not very impressed with her. I was in counseling prior to our move here and it helped. This is my therapy. If I hadn't found this site, I'd be wacko by now.

I'm going to go back and try to find the thread written by awed18 about detaching. I know that I'd be mentally better off if I could do that. I know I have no control of his actions. I need to live this day by day and not worry about the future. My biggest fear is that he's staying with me just until we move back to the US and the kids are a little older.

Thanks everyone

MK

MK,

People Pleaser. Many have us have that syndrome. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Please read the Dr Harley's book: Giver/Taker. It will help you balance the 2 aspects of your life and reduce some of your stress. I know it helped me (I am a major giver). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.