Okay he sent me a wonderful email about coming to dinner tonite. It sounded great... then he sent me an email about the sports team and I was nice. Then he sent me an email about how angry he is and I was understanding. Then he sent me his latest email which btw sounds like a whining teenager who doesn't get to have the car anytime he wants. He says he's sick of being in apt and not being home... says he wants his life back. I told him I did too.. I understand that's what I want as well. Then he says to me, "yeah well noone is putting restrictions or conditions to you living in your own F(*&^(*^g house". I said, Yes I suppose you are right and his response is he's sick of it... he's sick of people telling him how to live (i'm guessing that's me), he's sick of everyone telling him what to do.... he hates everyone he hates the world and now he's not sure if he will be coming to dinner tonite.

Help me understand this fog.... This is about power isn't it... he's trying to wear me down so he can come back with his g/f too? Help is that it?

Why Do I feel like the bad guy here?

<small>[ February 19, 2004, 07:28 AM: Message edited by: heavenlee30 ]</small>

Yes, he's testing his boundaries. My FWH will now readily admitt that he was acting like an adolescent (?) while in the A.

While in Plan A you are not required to be a doormat or to allow cake eating behaviour. There are a couple of recent posts on this.

Just like with your kids you need to set boundaries and stick to them. He is being unreasonable and cruel...it's not up to you to make him feel better about the boundaries.

If he's already moved out why are you not in Plan B until he makes up his mind between you and OW? Again Plan A or B isn't about making life easier for the WS...it's to wake them up!

He's walking the fence and as long as nothing pushes him off, he'll keep on walking it.

Pre A was your H a reasonable man? Was he a good father?

How does he feel about the example he's setting for your kids now? What are your kids saying to him? How is he responding? Do your kids have contact with OW? If so then what kind of example are you setting for them? I think on another thread you mentioned he coaches your son and hers on a soccer team...have you asked him what the other parents would think of him and OW if they know (I wouldn't expose to them but just something for him to think about).

Has the A been exposed? Does OW have a H or boyfriend, if so do they know? Does she have close family, do they know? Does his family know?

What alot of WS's need is what we call a good old fashioned light bulb moment...we have to keep searching for the thing that will give them that. You know your H best so keep trying to think about what has the most effect on him.

He's certainly acting like a selfish child right now who's deep into fogland.

You shouldn't make yourself too available for him...you want him to feel some of the fear you feel.

Why would you want him to dinner anyway after the arrogant/thoughtless/presumptious way he went about it???

I would respectively resend the invitation and then make yourself and kids unavailable...take them out to dinner or something.

Anyway...just some additional things to think about.

This is all fogtalk. I wouldn't worry about it too much, because you will probably get an email pretty soon saying something completely different.

yup you are right believer.... I didn't get an email... but I did get a phone call.
One minute one thing the next something else... it's like being married to two different people... am I just nuts?

<small>[ February 19, 2004, 07:30 AM: Message edited by: heavenlee30 ]</small>

Well, though I have no good advice for you on how to live through it, I have what I hope is a note of encouragement for you....

He is negotiating. He is trying to see if he can get you to let up on your boundaries. But at least he is being honest about it all - you have some level ground to work from here....

When my STBX walked out, he called two days later wanting to come home. I said he couldn't, that I had to see some real signs that it was over this time, that I couldn't handle going back and forth anymore, and that it was probably going to be at least a year before I was ready. And for that year, he couldn't come home, but he couldn't expect to stay with OW and still work on things. And I even found two places for him to stay - with a friend from church, and he could have gone back with his parents (paying rent, of course.)

His reponse - he instead went to live (supposedly) with a friend of his that had a history of cheating with his wife. I wasn't happy about it, but as long as he was working on our marriage, going to counseling with me and all, I figured I couldn't complain too much, right?

That friend was a cover - he never actually left living with her. Or if he did, it was only for a few days, and probably because she kicked him out. But we went for 2 1/2 months with him going to counseling, saying he was living with this friend, when he was actually living with OW the whole time, and evidently lying to her too, because she still thinks I'm lying when I say he spent 2 1/2 months trying to reconcile with me.

What you're going through now is hard. But it is standard WS, cake-eating tactics. As long as he is being honest about it, you have something to work with. Bite your tongue, but stand your ground! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ February 18, 2004, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: penguin ]</small>

heavenlee30...

There is no figuring out the behavior the fog will bring. You are getting a classic case of it. It's like they speak with a forked tongue, and each prong of the fork says something different than the other.

Much of what the fog generates is a result of the split personality that develops to protect the WS. Half of him wants to come back, but doesn't want to pay the price. The other have wants to stay in the A, but doesn't want to pay the price. So the doublespeak becomes their line of defense, while they try to continue to have the best of both worlds.

Plan A works, but it takes time and intense focus. Avoiding LB is part of the focus. When you are in conversation with WH and Disresptful Judgements or Love Busters begin, it is time to call "time out", and return to your corners, with the agreement that you will talk again, but with the "rules of engagement" in place, per Marriage Builders.

You need to be the "adult" and keep the boundries set and in place regarding how the "negotiations" go. WH is already in an adolescent state of mind, but he will understand eventually that you won't engage in converations that you don't feel safe and protected (Rule of Protection).

Let him know you that you are not "telling" him what to do, you are simply stating what you need from him to feel safe in the relationship. It is up to him to make those changes in himself, as you cannot change him.

Remember that sentences that start with "YOU ought to do" this or that are going nowhere. Sentences that begin with "I feel like I don't understand all of these mixed messages (or emotions) you send me, and don't really understand what you mean. Please explain it to me".

Learn the rules, inform WH of the rules, stay within the boundries of the rules, and you will avoid LB's and all the other perils.

Remember, Plan A (or B for that matter) is not for wimps!

Good luck!

Originally posted by heavenlee30:


Let's just play it by ear and see where it goes.... is his suggestion....

Your H says... "Let's just play it by ear and see where it goes."

You say ... "I prefer to have a plan."

KISS (keep it simple stupid)

Respond with NO attempts to argue with his fogese, just simply state your plan. You don't need to try and convince him of anything .... he's too fogged right now.

Keep your responses simple and ALWAYS centered on your plan. Don't allow your plan to get railroaded.

If he calls you "selfish" because you won't do his non-plan... respomd like this: "I plan to protect my family"

Pep

Dear Forever...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If he's already moved out why are you not in Plan B until he makes up his mind between you and OW? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He's only been out for 3 weeks.... and I have only been doing plan A for about a month.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Pre A was your H a reasonable man? Was he a good father?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He wasn't always reasonable, but logical... typical engineer... make a good point and he was pretty receptive.... HE is and has ALWAYS been a wonderful father.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How does he feel about the example he's setting for your kids now? What are your kids saying to him? How is he responding? Do your kids have contact with OW? If so then what kind of example are you setting for them? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He doesn't see it yet... the example he's setting in fact the article on "what children learn from affairs" infuriated (sp) him. He was so angry because all that is about what he's doing... what he's done. My kids think he's lost all his senses. They have told him they are angry and mad. He still can't see it... I think he's beginning too... but he's so fogged over. They have had contact by seeing each other socially and meeting places before I knew about A with our children with them. She emailed my daughter a few times, and I put a stop to that as well. And the soccer team has ended until spring, however, they will be signing up for that soon. Some of the parents do know... a few close friends from the team... but not all of them... I have asked him about that and he says well hopefully it's about the kids and not about me. He thinks it won't matter to the parents because soccer is just about him and the kids.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Has the A been exposed? Does OW have a H or boyfriend, if so do they know? Does she have close family, do they know? Does his family know?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wouldn't say exposed totally but many of our friends know... and you know how juicy gossip likes to travel fast. I am sure most people know. The OW is Divorced from her 2nd H this past summer and all of her family lives in another state. I don't know if they know or not. I mean he said something once about visiting her parents, but he also told my children he was going to marry her and build her a house and they would have bedrooms there. In fact, he was going to build it in the same subdivision we just built in.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why would you want him to dinner anyway after the arrogant/thoughtless/presumptious way he went about it??? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">True but in our way that was cute... it was a funning kinda thing we have done a lot. So I didn't take it that way.

Penguin,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He is negotiating. He is trying to see if he can get you to let up on your boundaries. But at least he is being honest about it all - you have some level ground to work from here....
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Where do you see honesty... I try to see it I can't. I asked him a little while ago... why it was so important for him to do a NC letter if he hasn't been seeing her anyway, he has been communicating through email with her, however. He said, "he just didn't see a problem with it.... he doesn't feel he can make a reasonable and logical decision when he's not in his home with his kids.... he didn't see a problem with moving back here and seeing us and them." He thinks that will help him make up his mind. He also said that she will probably no longer speak to him if he moves back home anyway.... but I can't count on that... think I should call and ask her? I would love to know exactly what he tells her.... really I would.

I am sure she wouldn't be letting up... I watched her come onto him for over a year. In fact, I am the dipsh&&t who commented on her flirting.... doh!!!! to him. He was oblivious. I guess I planted the seed. But she is so "BLAH".... I mean noone I know likes her... they all think she's a basketcase... and her son has a tremendous amount of emotional problems too. He has been hospitalized for his emotional problems. It's really sad... but he's all that ADHD, Bi-polar, depressed, EH, ODD... you name it the kids got it. So noone can really understand any of it... she recently told my WS she was going to send her son away to get help. This was one of his questions... he had very real and honest concerns over our children with him on a regular type basis... and had concerns over his ability to deal with a special needs child for a length of time. I mean if she is willing to send her son away to keep my H.... do you think she is going to stop seeing him because he moves back in? She has been married twice before... once to a guy who beat her and the second time to an alcoholic who refused to go to AA and stop drinking. I think a lot of her previous maritial problems have been due to the son. So I am sure she has seen a great father... successful.... and cute.... and all.... and thinks she's hit the lottery, this time around.

Any suggestions?

<small>[ February 19, 2004, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: heavenlee30 ]</small>

Hang on baby, it's gonna be a rough ride. My WH said almost the same thing word for word. He said he needed to move in so that we can work on marriage together. I almost let him, while everyone here told me NOOOOOOOOO!

He even stood up in church and asked for everyone's prayers for our reconciliation.

The next day, I caught him and OW in bed together.

So don't give in. With his attitude, if you let him move back now, you are making a HUGE mistake.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by heavenlee30:
<strong> Penguin,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He is negotiating. He is trying to see if he can get you to let up on your boundaries. But at least he is being honest about it all - you have some level ground to work from here....
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Where do you see honesty... I try to see it I can't. I asked him a little while ago... why it was so important for him to do a NC letter if he hasn't been seeing her anyway, he has been communicating through email with her, however. He said, "he just didn't see a problem with it.... he doesn't feel he can make a reasonable and logical decision when he's not in his home with his kids.... he didn't see a problem with moving back here and seeing us and them." He thinks that will help him make up his mind. He also said that she will probably no longer speak to him if he moves back home anyway.... but I can't count on that... think I should call and ask her? I would love to know exactly what he tells her.... really I would.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're right.... perhaps "honesty" is too strong a word. I guess it would be more appropriate to say that at least he hasn't gone to outright deliberate deception yet. I know that doesn't sound like much consolation, but it is positive. He still want you, he just doesn't want to have to give up ANYTHING. Doesn't see why he should have to. Doesn't see why you won't TRUST him - after all, he's come clean now, so you should obviously trust again, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Like the others have said - all of it is fog, all of it is pushing those boundaries. He's like a little kid who has been told he can't have candy before dinner. "Well, then can I have cake?"
"No."
"Well, how about ice cream?"
"No."
"But ice cream won't ruin my dinner - it melts. I'll still have room."
"No."
"Just a little?" "No."
"Then I won't eat dinner anyway. If you won't let me have what I want, I won't do what you want."
Fog.

As far as OW - I wouldn't call. She knows you exist. Beyond that, anything you could say to her or she could say to you will cause more problems than it could ever solve. She's also foggy - and she's having an affair with your husband. Do you think she'll listen to anything you have to say? Do you trust anything she could possibly say to you?

And the answer to "she'll probably never speak to me again anyway if I move back home?"
"Well, dear, then a NC letter really will make no difference at all to you, but you doing one before you come home would make a WORLD of difference to me." Said in complete innocence, and in good humor. Just let him know that if NC letter isn't important to him, it is to you, and since it won't affect the outcome for him, it only makes sense that he would do it to help you through this difficult time. Tell him that while you want desperately to believe him, you find it impossible without the NC letter as a show of good faith, and until you trust him, you are just protecting your marriage. That letting him come home before you trust him could cause irreparable damage.

But, no matter what you do or do not say to him, expect more fog. It doesn't sound like he's ready to come out of it yet.

Oh, I forgot to add one other thing - you SHOULD, absolutely SHOULD know exactly what he tells her. That's why the NC letter - you get to see it, you send it together. That was an area where I made a big mistake - I hadn't found these boards yet. When I said NC (the first time, before he moved out,) he agreed, said he had told her, and that was it. The second time I said NC was a must (still before he moved out,) I at least insisted on positive proof that he had told her, so he called her with me there. And at some point went outside for privacy. I have no idea how strongly he worded NC, though I think he did say it at that point - but based on things he said later, I have a feeling it was something along the lines of "you need to back off and leave me alone for at least a month, because I need to give my marriage a chance. And if, in a month, it still seems like things aren't working out with W, then we'll see....." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Anything less than NC, read by you and sent by both of you, and you having full access to all e-mail/computer/phone/anything to make sure he isn't still in contact - it's cake-eating.

As far as the "being in contact with you and them will help him make up his mind...." Well, sorry, it isn't a buffet, and free sample aren't being given out. Though I will admit you probably should phrase it a lot nicer than that to him so it isn't a LB.! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> But tell him, he isn't choosing a flavor of ice cream, he is playing with a whole lot of people's lives and futures. Ask him how he would feel if you suddenly decided it was time to re-evaluate and see if he still met up to your standards, or if you'd rather trade in for what's behind door #2.

Again, you probably don't want to word it quite that way since you're in plan A, even if it is the way you feel right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ February 18, 2004, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: penguin ]</small>

Believer -

Ouch! Yep, mine did a very similar thing, though his was before he walked out. Went in front of the congregation to say he'd "fallen into sin" and wanted prayers to help him, that he was trying to fix his life.

I told him afterwards that I was concerned that he had done that as a show for me rather than it being sincere. He claimed that it had started out being just for me, but that once he got up there, he was really moved by all of it, and it made a real big difference. And less than a month later, he was living with OW.

You are still not doing the right Plan A Heaven. You must not get angry. Read the list again.

I know it is not easy when you are mentally and physically not well. I was sort of in your shoes.

You are still dependant on him that is why you can't let him go. You keep thinking that you cannot let him go but YOU CAN. You can live without him.

I don't know where you are now...is it plan A or plan B. If you cannot go into plan B yet than do a good Plan A. If you start to LB a lot in plan A then maybe you should consider going into plan B because LB in plan A will not help you to get him back.

Remember you have already lost your husband the day you found out about the A. If you still want to win him back then do the MB process by the book. The process is a war plan to save your marriage. Like everything in life, you MUST have a proper plan. Do a plan heaven and stick to it.

Don't LB if you do plan A. This is very very important.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=026872

This is my update thread after what happened this afternoon with these posts... I think maybe I should stop posting all over the dang place and just post in one place. I'm not sure how it works..

Thanks All. I am going to stick to Plan A for now.... at least until I go back to work in March. When I am not home all day and working it will be much easier to do Plan B. I can't possibly think about plan B until then.

Thanks ALL